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First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

And.... tit for tat begins:

Totem pole set alight on Malahat likely in retaliation for tearing down of Cook statue​


www.timescolonist.com

Totem pole set alight on Malahat likely retaliation for tearing down of Cook statue: RCMP

The burning of a totem pole, seemingly in retaliation for the dismantling of a statue of Capt. James Cook on Canada Day in Victoria, has been denounced as an act of racism and an example of settler cruelty by the W̱ SÁNEĆ leadership council.
www.timescolonist.com www.timescolonist.com
 
OldSolduer said:
If Victoria can do this so can Winnipeg. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I posted something on FB this morning alluding to that and it turned in to a shit show. I deleted it as it was counter productive
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Winnipeg is investigating.

Realize that in any of these big protests, there are a lot of cameras and binoculars about. Best practice, if people aren’t already getting hurt, is to avoid inflaming the situation through arrests right now when they can instead follow later. It’s not worth sending a crowd control arrest team into an angry mob over a statue- I guarantee you’ll see way more tax dollars spent on a couple injured police than on cleaning and repairing a statue. Much safer to identify people now and effect arrests later, if It’s purely a matter of property damage or minor stupidity.
 
daftandbarmy said:
And.... tit for tat begins:

Totem pole set alight on Malahat likely in retaliation for tearing down of Cook statue​


www.timescolonist.com

Totem pole set alight on Malahat likely retaliation for tearing down of Cook statue: RCMP

The burning of a totem pole, seemingly in retaliation for the dismantling of a statue of Capt. James Cook on Canada Day in Victoria, has been denounced as an act of racism and an example of settler cruelty by the W̱ SÁNEĆ leadership council.
www.timescolonist.com www.timescolonist.com
Click to expand...
I was just thinking that Totem poles celebrate a society based on slavery.....
 
Brad Sallows said:
Swearing allegiance to rights and treaties refers to two different things:

1) Aboriginal rights, which is the archaic notion that heredity - the accident of birth - should grant people different treatment before the law.
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I was following a debate somewhere about the Wet'suwet'en pipeline saga. It looked like a number of the people and elected chiefs supported the pipeline. The hereditary chiefs were against it. Someone was saying the supreme court of Canada recognized the authority of the hereditary chiefs over elected chiefs (or words to that effect). If accurate that's one of the downsides of the traditional practices of aboriginals.
 
It looked like a number of the people and elected chiefs supported the pipeline. The hereditary chiefs were against it.
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Yes. I don't mind a few trappings of power attached to hereditary positions (eg. our remnants of monarchy), but the federal government has a duty to protect people from that kind of happy horseshit and insist on elected government. Who chose hereditary leaders? When did they make that choice? Does anyone get to make it again, at regular intervals, in case people change their minds?
 
brihard said:
Winnipeg is investigating.

Realize that in any of these big protests, there are a lot of cameras and binoculars about. Best practice, if people aren’t already getting hurt, is to avoid inflaming the situation through arrests right now when they can instead follow later. It’s not worth sending a crowd control arrest team into an angry mob over a statue- I guarantee you’ll see way more tax dollars spent on a couple injured police than on cleaning and repairing a statue. Much safer to identify people now and effect arrests later, if It’s purely a matter of property damage or minor stupidity.
Click to expand...
Thank you. That's good info to know.
 
Jarnhamar said:
I was following a debate somewhere about the Wet'suwet'en pipeline saga. It looked like a number of the people and elected chiefs supported the pipeline. The hereditary chiefs were against it. Someone was saying the supreme court of Canada recognized the authority of the hereditary chiefs over elected chiefs (or words to that effect). If accurate that's one of the downsides of the traditional practices of aboriginals.
Click to expand...
It would seem internecine politics is endemic in all systems:

biv.com

Female hereditary chiefs challenge Wet’suwet’en MOU

Female hereditary chiefs launch human rights complaints over their exclusion
biv.com biv.com

*****

The way the weather is in BC right now, setting any kind of fire - for any reason - seems to suggest any number of criminal charges in addition to arson.
 
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brihard said:
Winnipeg is investigating.

Realize that in any of these big protests, there are a lot of cameras and binoculars about. Best practice, if people aren’t already getting hurt, is to avoid inflaming the situation through arrests right now when they can instead follow later. It’s not worth sending a crowd control arrest team into an angry mob over a statue- I guarantee you’ll see way more tax dollars spent on a couple injured police than on cleaning and repairing a statue. Much safer to identify people now and effect arrests later, if It’s purely a matter of property damage or minor stupidity.
Click to expand...

Sometimes Law and Order requires a strong hand and a immediate stopping of these actions. If this was Russia the cops would have marched in there and started hitting everyone who was in the way with batons and I guarantee you they would have stopped their illegal actions pretty quickly. Not saying that should be our immediate go to, but if someone is breaking the law and they are seen getting away with it, it causes others to become emboldened to do it elsewhere. The reason so many statues are being torn down is because there is no seen consequences to not tearing them down. Sometimes it isn't about the money, rather the principal.
 
While my brain understands why the police would watch events unfold then follow up afterwards (less violence is a plus) I must admit I felt physically ill watching them topple the statues then just walk away.
 
What degree of bodily harm is
Eaglelord17 said:
Sometimes Law and Order requires a strong hand and a immediate stopping of these actions. If this was Russia the cops would have marched in there and started hitting everyone who was in the way with batons and I guarantee you they would have stopped their illegal actions pretty quickly. Not saying that should be our immediate go to, but if someone is breaking the law and they are seen getting away with it, it causes others to become emboldened to do it elsewhere. The reason so many statues are being torn down is because there is no seen consequences to not tearing them down. Sometimes it isn't about the money, rather the principal.
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Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with our values? Doubtful.

What degree of bodily harm is a statue worth? I’m on a public order unit. How far would you have us go in the moment to stop people pulling a statue down and effect immediate arrest? How much injury are you willing to risk to me or the men and women to my right and left over it? Just how heavy-handed would you have us be? Personally I see a huge different between something like pulling down a statue that’s easily remade, versus a riot that’s destroying businesses and institutions, setting fires, etc.

Right now we have a societal tension that’s causing a lot of pressure. Do we want to make a pressure cooker out of it, or instead let that pressure bleed off? Given the underlying issues in all of this, I’m not sure sending a bunch of (mostly white) police in to suppress dissent, protests, and relatively minor vandalism by force necessarily serves the larger strategic objectives of our government. But that’s just me.
 
brihard said:
What degree of bodily harm is

Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with our values? Doubtful.

What degree of bodily harm is a statue worth? I’m on a public order unit. How far would you have us go in the moment to stop people pulling a statue down and effect immediate arrest? How much injury are you willing to risk to me or the men and women to my right and left over it? Just how heavy-handed would you have us be? Personally I see a huge different between something like pulling down a statue that’s easily remade, versus a riot that’s destroying businesses and institutions, setting fires, etc.

Right now we have a societal tension that’s causing a lot of pressure. Do we want to make a pressure cooker out of it, or instead let that pressure bleed off? Given the underlying issues in all of this, I’m not sure sending a bunch of (mostly white) police in to suppress dissent, protests, and relatively minor vandalism by force necessarily serves the larger strategic objectives of our government. But that’s just me.
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Amen.

The best part about people dragging down a statue is that you get to arrest dirt bags for vandalism. Then replace/ fix the statue.

FWIW, I was never happy with the Capt. Cook statue in Victoria. It's made of fibreglass FFS!

Maybe they'll reaplace it with a proper, indestructible bronze monolith. With an anti-tampering switch connected to a couple of Claymore mines :)
 
brihard said:
What degree of bodily harm is

Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with our values? Doubtful.

What degree of bodily harm is a statue worth? I’m on a public order unit. How far would you have us go in the moment to stop people pulling a statue down and effect immediate arrest? How much injury are you willing to risk to me or the men and women to my right and left over it? Just how heavy-handed would you have us be? Personally I see a huge different between something like pulling down a statue that’s easily remade, versus a riot that’s destroying businesses and institutions, setting fires, etc.

Right now we have a societal tension that’s causing a lot of pressure. Do we want to make a pressure cooker out of it, or instead let that pressure bleed off? Given the underlying issues in all of this, I’m not sure sending a bunch of (mostly white) police in to suppress dissent, protests, and relatively minor vandalism by force necessarily serves the larger strategic objectives of our government. But that’s just me.
Click to expand...
I ask that the police enforce the laws, especially if they see them being broken in front of their faces. People are starting to believe the law doesn't apply to them just because their personal social issue is popular at the moment. They are literally being taught that as long as they are 'peaceful' they can act as they please. As a society we need to make sure they understand they break the law, there is immediate consequences. We have rule of law for a reason, go to your local officials if you want something changed, but we need to set a hardline that breaking the law to effect your personal social goals will not be accepted.

As to how much force the police need to use, that is all dependent on how the criminals react. If they are peaceful and accept being arrested freely then there is no issue. If they decide to resist and fight back, then as much force as is required to subdue them needs to be used.

Risk of injury is part of the job you signed up for, enforcing the laws are literally the core component of your profession. The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.
 
brihard said:
What degree of bodily harm is

Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with our values? Doubtful.

What degree of bodily harm is a statue worth? I’m on a public order unit. How far would you have us go in the moment to stop people pulling a statue down and effect immediate arrest? How much injury are you willing to risk to me or the men and women to my right and left over it? Just how heavy-handed would you have us be? Personally I see a huge different between something like pulling down a statue that’s easily remade, versus a riot that’s destroying businesses and institutions, setting fires, etc.

Right now we have a societal tension that’s causing a lot of pressure. Do we want to make a pressure cooker out of it, or instead let that pressure bleed off? Given the underlying issues in all of this, I’m not sure sending a bunch of (mostly white) police in to suppress dissent, protests, and relatively minor vandalism by force necessarily serves the larger strategic objectives of our government. But that’s just me.
Click to expand...

I guess the question is when do the police start swinging sticks and restoring order ? Honest question, you're the SME; I count stuff for a living.

To me the totem pole burning is the proverbial canary in the coal mine, if the government cant/wont protect order others will.
 
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