Federal Government & Union spar over returning to office

[childs56]

In contravention of what? The Income Tax Act has always had provisions for employees to claim certain household expenses not reimbursed by the employer provided the employer signed off. All they did in 2021 was allow a streamlined process to claim a lump sum rather than the existing detailed form so thousands of employers wouldn't have to sign millions of forms. If you are self employed, you can claim more things, like mortgage interest, insurance, etc. but there are certain risks to the 100% capital gains exemption on the principle residence. In Ontario, carrying on a home-based, office-bound business does not violate land use zoning rules, and, without looking at my policy, I can't imagine why an insurance company would really care provided I am not open to the public or doing other things that might violate the policy, like welding. If nothing else, the house is vacant less.

As mentioned, there is a difference between 'working from home' and 'running a business out of your house'. Working from home makes my residence no more of a workplace than my kid doing homework makes it a school.

I would disagree with its no different then your kid doing school work.
Who pays if you slip on your carpet at home during work hours? Was there a JHA or JSA conducted on your house work area?
Do you have insurance or will they cover you if your work computer catches fire and burns your house down?
If a fellow employee comes to your house to deliver work related items and gets hurt on your property can they sue you or the company?

Juts curious as the provisions since 2021 were in panic to dealing with the panic of the response to the virus.
Working from home is a liability for employers for a number of reasons. is your place secure, for example are other people around when I am doing my work, do they have access to my companies documents who otherwise would not, in passing or actual?
Is my internet and phone connection actually secure? Can I sign into my intranet network securely with unlimited access or am I limited. (Many large companies I worked for limit the access).

Who pays your internet costs, phone costs? I know in order to work from home and conduct business in a regular use situation many Phone/ Internet companies require you to have a business line. My experience was from a few years ago now. I know my internet limited my work usage of emails when i was working from home. Sent me many notices about requiring business/ work email account

 

[Brad Sallows]

Who pays your internet costs, phone costs?

Another thing that can be claimed, subject to some sort of quantification of the amount of work vs private use.

Some employers have been doing this for a while; my experience working mostly from home goes back at least 6 years (and from Feb 2020 was 100%). Hard as it may be to believe, almost all the "concerns" people keep raising here have been dealt with by someone, somewhere. That some government agencies might be doing it ham-fistedly probably just means they tried to do too much too quickly (ie. sudden pandemic mitigation) without asking around enough.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

My experience in a private sector white collar job is that the employees largely want to WFH and the employer is trying to get that genie back in the bottle without everybody quitting. That's generally the impression I get from the our clients too, although admittedly we have clients who are publicly-traded companies and there human resource pool is 5 or 6 guys living all over North America working together remotely.

Same at my work.

I'm near the end of my vacation and having some down time at the moment, just read this thread. Looking forward to jumping into it when I get back in Canada.

There's this really cool thing called Citrix we use that blew my mind and made me realize how much easier it all is than it was in the DND. Citrix was first launched in 2009 but it's absolutely exploded in the private sector (of course the pandemic helped). I don't even need a company laptop, I can access my work desktop from my personal laptop and it's exactly like I'm at work, server/storage/software etc. No silly PKI card crap either.

We use a virtual machine at my work. I have access to everything on my home computer and my cell phone uses RSA SecureID any time I login (it generates an authentication code that changes every sixty seconds).

I also have an issued tablet that I use when I'm at work. It is cloud based and I can use it to get real time tracking on whatever you can think of.

 

[lenaitch]

I would disagree with its no different then your kid doing school work.
Who pays if you slip on your carpet at home during work hours? Was there a JHA or JSA conducted on your house work area?
Do you have insurance or will they cover you if your work computer catches fire and burns your house down?
If a fellow employee comes to your house to deliver work related items and gets hurt on your property can they sue you or the company?

Juts curious as the provisions since 2021 were in panic to dealing with the panic of the response to the virus.
Working from home is a liability for employers for a number of reasons. is your place secure, for example are other people around when I am doing my work, do they have access to my companies documents who otherwise would not, in passing or actual?
Is my internet and phone connection actually secure? Can I sign into my intranet network securely with unlimited access or am I limited. (Many large companies I worked for limit the access).

Who pays your internet costs, phone costs? I know in order to work from home and conduct business in a regular use situation many Phone/ Internet companies require you to have a business line. My experience was from a few years ago now. I know my internet limited my work usage of emails when i was working from home. Sent me many notices about requiring business/ work email account

I was being a bit flippant about the 'homework thing' (she's 34). I honestly don't know how WSIB (Ontario) would treat a carpet burn suffered while working from home. I heard that companies did OHS audits the greater or lesser degrees; some considered the workspace in detail, others said here's a laptop - go home.

I suppose we can what-if a thousand scenarios. The liability on employees would be proportionate to the type of business. If corporately sensitive work is being done, it is incumbent on the employer to have policies and provide training on information security. I suppose if an employee breached that - here's the door (private industry can do that so much better than governments). People have worked away from their employers facilities for years; at home, in motel rooms, etc. The pandemic ramped that up exponentially. They might have occurred but I can't recall hearing about any instance of a significant corporate or national security issue arising from this (OK, Bernier left some NATO stuff lying around but that was pre-pandemic).

 

[Navy_Pete]

I would disagree with its no different then your kid doing school work.
Who pays if you slip on your carpet at home during work hours? Was there a JHA or JSA conducted on your house work area?
Do you have insurance or will they cover you if your work computer catches fire and burns your house down?
If a fellow employee comes to your house to deliver work related items and gets hurt on your property can they sue you or the company?

Juts curious as the provisions since 2021 were in panic to dealing with the panic of the response to the virus.
Working from home is a liability for employers for a number of reasons. is your place secure, for example are other people around when I am doing my work, do they have access to my companies documents who otherwise would not, in passing or actual?
Is my internet and phone connection actually secure? Can I sign into my intranet network securely with unlimited access or am I limited. (Many large companies I worked for limit the access).

Who pays your internet costs, phone costs? I know in order to work from home and conduct business in a regular use situation many Phone/ Internet companies require you to have a business line. My experience was from a few years ago now. I know my internet limited my work usage of emails when i was working from home. Sent me many notices about requiring business/ work email account

All this is pretty straightforward in the the CRA claims, as well as existing DND security policies, and pretty much all existed pre-COVID. The only thing they did was make the lump sum daily claim easier to do, but if you want you can still do the more complicated full claim for the various expenses.

The laptops are cleared for up to PRO B with a PKI, with a VPN for a secure connection. Again, all pre-existing before COVID; the only change was capacity to let everyone do it (vice just people traveling).

You are really overthinking all of this; we already had rules for people working remotely for traveling, and for what you could/couldn't do outside the office. None of that really changed, just that the office wasn't the normal reporting spot for work. People who worked with higher security stuff or otherwise had to do something in person kept doing that; those that could work remotely did. And folks that still wanted to work in the office did that too.

We already trust people to make decisions related to life safety, operations, security, billions in spending, and long term strategic requirements, maybe we can trust them to figure out what kind of WFH arrangement works for their team? We've basically been on max flex since last summer anyway and have more or less done that already.

Sure, some WFH stuff doesn't get covered, but unless your job pays mileage/parking, you were always out of pocket for some stuff anyway. Personnally WFH gives me back time in my day for the 2-3 hour round trip (which was a bit soul destroying at times after a shitty day), plus I'm more productive for most of the core work I'm supposed to be doing in this job. Maybe the next posting will need time in person, which is fine, but going into the office to call people on Teams and read emails (in a distracting workspace) is kind of dumb. I still go in, or otherwise meet with the team in person when it makes sense to, and travel when that makes sense, but no reason not to remote work for 80-90% of the time.

 

[porkpie]

I personally agree with virtually everything that everyone has said so far on this topic. WFH is and should be a thing. It works for many people and their current lifestyle and where we are going technologically as a society. Does it need policing? Sure, there will always be people that will try to milk the system.

That being said there are three things that come to mind.

First, any big Govt organization doesn't do nuance and flexibility very well. All of us would have seen that given the profession we are (or were) in. As such, things tend to be one rule for all (trying my very best not to turn it into a Lord of the Rings quote) and woe be tide to anyone who tries something different. There is literally no middle ground. That and managers can't help but want to micro-manage sometime. I would like to be surprised wrt a middle ground but won't hold my breathe.

Second, as seen in the recent teachers support strike in Ontario, unions tend not to do graduated deals very well - they want any new conditions to apply for everyone. Given there are people who work from home and there are those that do not (I am in the later), people who WFH get a tax break (here in Ontario at least), get less travel time, less cost. I can see some unionised workers who do not WFH wanting more in terms of a new agreement than those who do not - that has been the chatter around this shop at least.

Third, given the above, I can see the Govt looking at all of this and essentially using WFH as the hammer to constrain or even cap wage increases. This is what I personally think the Feds are actually trying to do given deficits and the fact the PS grew during covid.

I realise the three things mentioned above can be seen to be contradictory but life and this situation in particular is messy so..................

 

[Navy_Pete]

@porkpie All good points, but I used to get a tax break for taking public transport though that was more than what I got for WFH.

IF I had to go into a shop to do work, then the flipside also means that when I'm not at the shop I'm not working. One of the things with WFH is it's difficult to separate the two, and I know when I first did it I was working a lot more hours than I would have been otherwise. And even though I'm on holiday, I just finished checking my email to follow up on something that happened over xmas that I'll probably have to recall folks for at some point next week.

All that is fine, but you can bet I'll be putting in the paperwork to get everyone their time off back and getting OT approval for the civies if it applies. GoC doesn't look like it's going to be flexible, so why should we?

 

[lenaitch]

I personally agree with virtually everything that everyone has said so far on this topic. WFH is and should be a thing. It works for many people and their current lifestyle and where we are going technologically as a society. Does it need policing? Sure, there will always be people that will try to milk the system.

That being said there are three things that come to mind.

First, any big Govt organization doesn't do nuance and flexibility very well. All of us would have seen that given the profession we are (or were) in. As such, things tend to be one rule for all (trying my very best not to turn it into a Lord of the Rings quote) and woe be tide to anyone who tries something different. There is literally no middle ground. That and managers can't help but want to micro-manage sometime. I would like to be surprised wrt a middle ground but won't hold my breathe.

Second, as seen in the recent teachers support strike in Ontario, unions tend not to do graduated deals very well - they want any new conditions to apply for everyone. Given there are people who work from home and there are those that do not (I am in the later), people who WFH get a tax break (here in Ontario at least), get less travel time, less cost. I can see some unionised workers who do not WFH wanting more in terms of a new agreement than those who do not - that has been the chatter around this shop at least.

Third, given the above, I can see the Govt looking at all of this and essentially using WFH as the hammer to constrain or even cap wage increases. This is what I personally think the Feds are actually trying to do given deficits and the fact the PS grew during covid.

I realise the three things mentioned above can be seen to be contradictory but life and this situation in particular is messy so..................

If you are talking about the educational support staff represented by CUPE, I would call it a 'differential' issue rather than a "graduated one"; where different pay increases or benefits are bestowed based on pay level. Organized labour generally doesn't like them because they view them as divisive and against their duty of fair representation if everybody is in the same bargaining unit.

Whether two people, holding the same position classification and doing the same work should receive different compensation based on whether they work from home or the office is a brand new area and it remains to be seen whether it will gain any traction. If one 'group' makes gains against the other, rest assured employers will do what they can to minimize said group, which could include contracting out. Depending on your point of view, that could be a good or bad thing, but be careful what you wish for.

 

[kev994]

In case there was any illusion why federal workers need to return to the office:

Downtown business owners await federal workers as unions fight return-to-office plans

 

[Furniture]

In case there was any illusion why federal workers need to return to the office:

Downtown business owners await federal workers as unions fight return-to-office plans

Which is why I am not planning to spend anything in the downtown shops, I'll keep spending my money in my local neighborhood.

 

[kev994]

Which is why I am not planning to spend anything in the downtown shops, I'll keep spending my money in my local neighborhood.

Then there’s no point in you going downtown, you should be exempt.

 

[daftandbarmy]

This week will be fun to watch from the sidelines

Federal employees start returning to the office​

Federal public servants will begin returning to office buildings in Ottawa and Gatineau today, as the federal government begins phasing in a return-to-office plan.

Starting today, federal employees in the core public service who are working from home will be required to begin the transition back to in-person work, with a requirement of being in the office at least two to three days a week.

Many public servants began working from home full-time when the COVID-19 pandemic began. Last year, government departments began making their own decisions about remote and hybrid work.

Treasury Board President Mona Fortier announced the return-to-office plan in mid-December, but federal unions say there is not enough workspaces available for federal employees to return to the office.

Federal employees start returning to the office

Federal public servants will begin returning to office buildings in Ottawa and Gatineau today, as the federal government begins phasing in a return-to-office plan.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

 

[Remius]

This week will be fun to watch from the sidelines

Federal employees start returning to the office​

Federal public servants will begin returning to office buildings in Ottawa and Gatineau today, as the federal government begins phasing in a return-to-office plan.

Starting today, federal employees in the core public service who are working from home will be required to begin the transition back to in-person work, with a requirement of being in the office at least two to three days a week.

Many public servants began working from home full-time when the COVID-19 pandemic began. Last year, government departments began making their own decisions about remote and hybrid work.

Treasury Board President Mona Fortier announced the return-to-office plan in mid-December, but federal unions say there is not enough workspaces available for federal employees to return to the office.

Federal employees start returning to the office

Federal public servants will begin returning to office buildings in Ottawa and Gatineau today, as the federal government begins phasing in a return-to-office plan.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

Not a single complaint so far from the team I am on.

Challenges though are being identified, but I am sure will be adapted to.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Multiple offices, which means more employees able to find locations closer to home. Commuting, but less of it

Ironically, pre Covid, the GoC was already looking at seeting up several "off site" GoC work spaces. Working within the Workplace 2.0 there, it would give workers an opportunity to have a lesser commute, and go to a more local GoC site, with "touch down" work spaces.

Covid put it on hold, but definitely should be re-energized. It mitigated the secure site / network connectivity considerations.

The Income Tax Act has always had provisions for employees to claim certain household expenses not reimbursed by the employer provided the employer signed off.

Form T2200. Used for anyone working elsewhere from their primary work site.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Of course the issue is mostly about the entitled and their entitlements.

Covid was not an infinite timeline. Everyone was essentially told it was for the "duration". However, many Federal Workers chose to make major life altering decisions...and now the consequences are at hand. I know of one who pulled her kids from daycare, and relocated her home to Horton ( near Renfrew). Now is struggling with coming to terms with these impacts.

Speaking to another day care operator, the number of Federal Workers who pulled their kids from spots, and then have an issue with the fact that none are available....action = consequences. Yet no one seemed to worry that pulling their kids might have impacted the daycare's bottom line....

Personally? A lot of our staff were, and are able to work remotely. Myself and my unit? We're on site, every day, because everything we do is classified, and can't be taken off site.

 

[Remius]

Ironically, pre Covid, the GoC was already looking at seeting up several "off site" GoC work spaces. Working within the Workplace 2.0 there, it would give workers an opportunity to have a lesser commute, and go to a more local GoC site, with "touch down" work spaces.

Covid put it on hold, but definitely should be re-energized. It mitigated the secure site / network connectivity considerations.

Form T2200. Used for anyone working elsewhere from their primary work site.

The previous group I was with was about to pilot that at our department but COVID accelerated that plan lol. We had 2 people already working remotely and they were looking at getting more volunteers to start doing it on a hybrid basis. I was aware of at least one of those touch down locations near me but we weren’t authorized to use it yet at the time.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If someone is in a desk job, that can be done remotely, and they are proven to be productive; I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Bluebulldog]

If someone is in a desk job, that can be done remotely, and they are proven to be productive; I don't see what the problem is.

It isn't really.
But it requires a different management style, and a degree of trust and accountability for all involved.

If a manager is able to quantify deliverables, and timelines, and effectively have their staff deliver same, then zero issue.

Many managers / supervisors in the Federal Sector are not terribly well equipped to do so. Or have a degree of apathy towards same.

Culture change is needed.

 

[Remius]

If someone is in a desk job, that can be done remotely, and they are proven to be productive; I don't see what the problem is.

Perception that they aren’t doing anything, businesses wanting the business they wouldn’t otherwise get if they work from home, old school mentalities about work. Name the reason lol…

 

[OldSolduer]

It isn't really.
But it requires a different management style, and a degree of trust and accountability for all involved.

If a manager is able to quantify deliverables, and timelines, and effectively have their staff deliver same, then zero issue.

Many managers / supervisors in the Federal Sector are not terribly well equipped to do so. Or have a degree of apathy towards same.

Culture change is needed.

I as a taxpayer expect decent service from the people that are supposed to serve the public. IF someone is a productive person whether at home or work that's fine - its the numpty do nothing at home that concerns me. And they are probably the "weakest link" in the office as well.