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F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sharpey
  • Start date Start date
This is a football the government will likely toss off till the election or place the order and try to make it go away
 
MilEME09 said:
This is a football the government will likely toss off till the election or place the order and try to make it go away
With a pre-election goal of a balanced budget, not going to happen.
 
Meanwhile Denmark is launching its own process--rather similar to the just completed-NFPS one--but one that however is supposed to lead directly to a political decision on the plane to buy (usual copyright disclaimer):

Denmark Kicks Off Fighter Contest

Denmark has fired the starting pistol in its contest for a new fighter aircraft, sending out requests for information to four manufacturers.

Officials from the New Combat Aircraft Program have sent what they call Requests for Binding Information (RBI) to Boeing for the F/A-18F Super Hornet, to Eurofighter for the Typhoon, to Lockheed Martin for the F-35A and to Saab for the Gripen E, as the country looks to replace its aging fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcons. Dassault and its Rafale have not been invited.

Candidates are expected to return the information in July, with officials due to make a selection on the aircraft in mid-2015 based on the platform’s ability to be updated during its operational life, its operations and maintenance costs, and also a willingness by the companies to develop industrial relationships with Danish industry.

The new aircraft are likely to enter service between 2020-2024 [emphasis added], by which time the Danish F-16s will be up to 45 years old.

“This is a comprehensive and detailed information gathering to help provide the New Combat Aircraft Program with the best possible data base to analyze and evaluate the candidate aircraft on the various assessment areas,” Danish officials say.

Copenhagen announced in March last year that as part of its defense plan 2013-2017, it would embark on a search for a new fighter aircraft, an initiative originally started in 2005 but shelved in 2010.

Denmark is already a Level 3 signatory to the Joint Strike Fighter program, having signed up in 2002. Indeed, one of its F-16Bs is stationed at Edwards AFB, Calif., to support the aircraft’s flight test program. But being a signatory to the program does not oblige it to purchase the aircraft, and Danish industry has reportedly expressed disappointment about the amount of business won from the F-35 program.

Meanwhile, Boeing is planning to send the Super Hornet to the Royal Danish Air Force’s main airshow at Karup, Denmark on June 22.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_04_14_2014_p0-678532.xml

Mark
Ottawa
 
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2014/04/15/lukes-new-f-redefines-modern-warfare/7727645/        (Video incl)

Luke's new F-35 redefines modern warfare


Paul Giblin, The Republic | azcentral.com 11:32 p.m. MST April 14, 2014


The new F-35 pilot-training program at Luke Air Force Base in Glendale (Phoenix, AZ) is developing aviators for an era of warfare the world has yet to experience.

Future fights will be contested on the digital frontier, according to military analysts who have studied the supersonic stealth fighter jets.

Unlike conventional warfare, next-generation battles will rely on cutting-edge technology linking networks of allied weapons systems that together can locate and destroy targets many miles away. Planes, ships, missiles and troops from various countries will be able to talk to each other and plot tactics literally on the fly.

"The F-35 will achieve its greatness as a coalition leader where information dominance is key," said Michael W. Wynne, who previously served as secretary of the Air Force and as a former executive for the aircraft's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin.

If the stealth F-35 Lightning II jets perform as envisioned, the next generation of pilots might never see targets with their own eyes and might never fly close enough to adversaries to become involved in one-on-one dogfights.

The planes are designed to engage in electronic warfare using sophisticated airborne computer systems that tie in to their sensors and communications systems. They require more than 8 million lines of software code to integrate their systems. The stealth F-22 Raptor fighters that became fully operational in 2005 require 2.2 million lines of code.

As a result, F-35 pilots will be able to fly undetected past enemy radar and defense systems to identify targets on the ground, sea or air, according to analysts.

Pilots from the U.S. and allied countries flying F-35s 25 to 30 miles apart will be able to stitch together real-time maps that all of them will be able to use. They also will be able to direct their own missiles — or weapons from other planes, ships, submarines or ground stations — to targets they've selected while airborne.

The idea is that pilots will become battle managers — and that kids who grew up using iPhones will fill those jobs.

"It's a whole new way of doing combat," said Robbin F. Laird, who has consulted for several think tanks, including the Center for Naval Analysis and the Institute for Defense Analysis. "It's a huge leap forward. It's very different."

Pentagon decision-makers believe the single-engine, single-seat jets are different enough to make them the U.S.' front-line fighter for the next 50 years or so. The Pentagon is projected to purchase 2,443 of the jets in three variants: the F-35A for the Air Force, the F-35B for the Marines and the F-35C for the Navy.

The projected cost for the entire fleet is $392 billion.

At least 10 allies from Norway to Australia are expected to buy hundreds more.

The F-35 will keep the U.S. well-armed for decades, said Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., a member of the House Armed Services Committee.

"We simply have never been able to predict what our next challenge will be," said Franks, whose district includes Luke.

Luke is destined to become the busiest F-35 training base in the Air Force and the largest F-35 base of any kind worldwide. When the allotment at Luke reaches its full compliment, the base will be home to 144 F-35s, including several foreign-owned F-35s. U.S. and allied pilots will train together in international squadrons.

Luke's first F-35 arrived at the base March 10, just in time for its official unveiling at Luke's air show the following weekend. Additional planes are expected to arrive every month or so for the next decade as they are manufactured at Lockheed Martin's assembly plant in Fort Worth, Texas.

The F-35 program has been besieged by delays and cost overruns. It is seven years behind schedule and roughly 70 percent over budget, according to the Government Accountability Office, an independent agency that provides audit, evaluation and investigative services for Congress.

The latest purchase orders for the F-35A place its price at approximately $131.9 million each. The other versions cost more. And those costs exclude front-end development costs.

Discussions about whether the F-35 will dominate the sky appear preliminary, with technical deficiencies slowing the rollout schedule. Shortly after the VIP-studded unveiling of Luke's first F-35, for example, a test pilot flew it to California for additional testing. Luke currently has no F-35s, with the base's F-35 pilots in training going on temporary duty assignments to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, which has operational F-35s.

Nonetheless, the Pentagon considers the F-35 a fifth-generation fighter plane, noting that it features a combination of capabilities lacking in older fighters such as the twin-engine F-15 Strike Eagle and the single-engine F-16 Fighting Falcon.

The F-35's defining characteristics include fully integrated avionics and sensors; speed and maneuverability; low radar observability; and secure digital communications systems.

Laird said he understands why military officials and aerospace-industry executives call it a fifth-generation aircraft, but he is not comfortable with the term.

"The problem is, if you say 'second, third, fourth' and you go down that path, it just looks like a linear process. It isn't," he said. "It's the first aircraft that sees 360 degrees around itself, for openers. And, basically, it just operates in a very different operational style."

The plane's avionics and sensors can detect targets and threats 360 degrees at every axis, giving pilots computer-enhanced full spherical views of their surroundings day or night, according to Lockheed Martin test pilot Bill Gigliotti and others who have flown it.

Military officials refer to F-35s as joint strike fighters, expressing the idea that they will fill the seemingly divergent roles of several older types of planes in use among the Air Force, Marines and Navy that they are scheduled to replace.

F-35s must serve the needs of all three services because of downward pressure on the defense budget, said Eric Fanning, undersecretary of the Air Force. Pentagon decision-makers believe so strongly in the F-35 that they opted to skip some modernization programs in older types of planes to maintain funding for the F-35, he said.

"We have to, as we get smaller, invest in platforms that are multimission-capable. The joint strike fighter can contribute in close air support and in very high-end, very contested environments," Fanning told The Republic.

Close air support is a type of mission in which pilots would assist ground troops engaged in firefights, like those in Afghanistan. The F-35's targeting ability and firepower, rather than its stealth and supersonic speed, would be its chief assets in that sort of encounter.

The plane generally is equipped with as many as four guided air-to-air missiles or air-to-ground bombs in internal weapons bays, but it can be equipped with additional armaments under its wings at the expense of its stealthiness. A weapons-heavy configuration would be more typical for close air support.

"It will be one of the many platforms we use for that," Fanning said. "Even now, in close air support, we use almost every platform we've got, depending on what the fight is, where the fight is and what we need. The joint strike fighter is developed, in part, with that mission in mind."

A high-end, contested mission likely would involve flying into airspace defended by Russian-built or Chinese-built military hardware. Both Russia and China already have sophisticated radar and surface-to-air missile-defense systems. They also both are developing their own fifth-generation fighters, which could become operational around 2020.

"If our current planes, our fourth-generation planes, go up against the fifth-generation planes that the Russians or the Chinese are building, they're out of the fight before they even know there is a fight," Fanning said. "The opposite is the case with the joint strike fighter."

In that type of scenario, the F-35's stealthiness, sensors and digital communications would come into play. Pilots would penetrate the airspace in high stealth mode, jamming enemy radar while they go. They would sleuth targets from miles away, a process military officials call intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, or ISR.

Then, they'd coordinate attacks using missiles from U.S. and allied planes, ships and subs operating at safer distances. Allied forces would shoot down hostile airplanes without ever being detected.

Since the F-35 is software-enabled, software upgrades will keep the plane relevant throughout its projected 50-year lifespan, Laird said.

"The F-35 is pushing the transition into armed information warfare, where knowledge is an asset and battle management is increasingly important," Wynne said. "Luke will be training F-35 pilots to be battle managers."

Fifth generation fighter

The F-35 joins the F-22, a multi-role stealth fighter that became operational in 2005, as the world's only fifth-generation fighter jets, according to military analysts. Here's the evolution of fighters:

First generation:

Years: Approximately 1945 to 1955

Characteristics: Turbojet engine

U.S. example: F-86

Second generation:

Years: Approximately 1955 to 1960

Characteristics: Supersonic, on-board radar, guided air-to-air missiles

U.S. example: F-106

Third generation:

Years: Approximately 1960 to 1970

Characteristics: Multi-role, improved avionics, precision munitions

U.S. example: F-4E

Fourth generation:

Years: Approximately 1970 to 2000

Characteristics: Sophisticated avionics, improved precision munitions, enhanced radar, improved maneuverability, low observability

U.S. example: F-15E

Fifth generation:


Years: Approximately 2000 and beyond

Characteristics: Integrated avionics and sensors, greater speed and maneuverability, improved low observability, network centric

U.S. example: F-35

Source: U.S. Air Force

 
Full article at the link below:

Military.com

JSF Tests against Russian, Chinese Air Defenses

Six Air Force F-35A Joint Strike Fighter aircraft are currently at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., to test the aircraft's stealth and sensor technologies against representations of Russian, Iranian and Chinese air-defenses.

"The surface threat is a tough problem because it is a system of systems and the emerging threats that we have right now can see you hundreds of miles away. If the missile is big enough it can shoot you from hundreds of miles away," said Thomas Lawhead, operations lead for JSF integration office. "If you have stealth as you go in all those ranges shrink down. Hopefully they shrink down enough to where you can get in and launch a weapon without being seen."

He explained that the most advanced sensors have pivoted from European-based systems to ones in Asia developed by China.

"If you look back to 2001 when the JSF threat started, the threats were mostly European centric -- Russian made SA-10s or SA-20s. Now the future threats are looking at more Chinese-made and Asian made threats," he said.

The JSF's so-called sensor fusion is designed to provide pilots with a range of integrated combat-relevant information in real time.


(...EDITED)
 
Please note this article is a Google translation version of the original article in Polish:

Poland will buy F-35 - the best fighters in the world

21 Apr 2014 IAR

Google Site translation link

FROM: Polskie Radio.pl site


"Ministry of Defence wants to strongly reinforce the Polish air force.  To present in our armed F-16 fighter jets to join the fifth generation - the F-35.
For now, the details of the contract are shrouded in mystery.

It is not known whether the decision had already been taken in this regard
Defence Minister Tomasz Siemoniak asked about this topic says little.  Points out that at the moment too early to talk about specifics and binding decisions.  Defence Minister recalled in an interview with IAR that the military is planning to shopping for many years ahead.  They discussed various issues, including the F-35 fighter jets.  This does not mean that the decision had already been taken in this case.

Poland poptrzebuje up to 60 new F-35
It is known for being a modern F-35 to replace worn-Su-22 and Mig-29, which also resursy soon be over.  Columnist magazine "Polish Armed" Tadeusz Wrobel provides that new fighters you will need to buy at least four squadrons, or more than 60 dozen machines.

F-35: the most expensive fighter in the world

According to Tadeusz Wrobel biggest problem fifth-generation fighters is their price.  Until recently, for a copy - without the system and weaponry - you had to pay $ 200 million.  Now prices have fallen a bit.  Manufacturer provides that if the production will start in full swing, even stanieją fighters and they can be bought at 80-90 million per unit.

To this must be added the cost of the system, ie, crew training and technical support, as well as spare parts and equipment.  Experts estimate that this will cost about konkrakt babe billion.

(...EDITED)
 
On the heels of the South Korean order, we have the RAAF order...

Federal Government to announce purchase of 72 stealth fighter jets for RAAF 

23 Apr 2014 Ian McPhedran

The Australian (link)


“THE Abbott Government will purchase 72 advanced American-built stealth fighter jets to spearhead the nation’s defence for the next half century. 
 
The $12.4 billion through-life outlay
, to be announced in Canberra today by the Prime Minsiter, is the biggest defence purchase in Australian history and includes every aspect of the system from hangars to missiles.

The so-called “fifth generation” JF-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) planes will be deployed in three operational squadrons and a training squadron based at RAAF Williamtown near Newcastle in NSW and RAAF Tindal near Katherine in the Northern Territory.

About $1.6 billion will be spent on new facilities at the air force bases....

(...EDITED)

...The government has already ordered 14 planes and another 58 will be added, taking the total to 72 with the option of another 24 further down the track.

They will enter service from 2018 and will serve alongside 24 Super Hornet fighters already in service with the RAAF.


The jets will replace the RAAF’s fleet of ageing F/A-18 Classic Hornet fighters that will retire by 2022.

(...EDITED)
 
More Super Hornets instead of F35Cs for the USN in the future? We'll see.

Military.com

Boeing Builds the Navy an F-35C Exit Strategy

Military.com Apr 25, 2014 | by Kris Osborn and Michael Hoffman

A rival aircraft manufacturer has worked not so quietly this past year to offer the Navy an escape hatch from the costly Joint Strike Fighter program.

The Navy's decision to reduce its F-35C five-year acquisition plan from 69 to 36 aircraft over the past year raised questions about the service's commitment to the fifth generation fleet.
More questions have been asked since the Navy included 22 EA-18G Growlers on its unfunded priorities list.


Boeing officials started their effort in earnest this past summer at the Paris Air Show to get the Navy to buy more F/A-18 Super Hornets and Growlers as a hedge against problems in the Joint Strike Fighter program
, the costliest military acquisition program in U.S. history.

Recently, Boeing has gone as far as to question whether the F-35's stealth technology is still effective against the latest air defense systems being developed in China and Russia. At the Navy League's annual conference earlier this month, Boeing officials presented results on a study the company commissioned entitled: "The Perishability of Stealth."

(...EDITED)
 
S.M.A. said:
On the heels of the South Korean order, we have the RAAF order...

Is it just me that is bad at maths or is "72 F-35's for $12.4 billion through-life outlay" damn close to the "65 F-35's for $9.5 billion" brandied by the Conservatives before the "cost scandal" of the sole sourcing choice for fighter came out?

Just saying ;) .
 
It's not entirely clear but it looks like the $12.4B is just for the 58 now committed to and does not include the earlier 14:

Australia is to buy 58 more Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters (JSFs) at a cost of AUD12.4 billion (USD11.4 billion), Prime Minister Tony Abbott announced on 23 April...
http://www.janes.com/article/36906/australia-signs-up-for-58-more-f-35s

More:
http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/2014/04/23/prime-minister-and-minister-for-defence-joint-media-release-f-35-joint-strike-fighters-to-transform-australias-air-combat-capability/

And note:

...
Deal includes opt-out clause if costs continue to rise

Defence Minister David Johnston has told AM that there is a way out for Australia if the costs climb too high.

"If Australia decides that the costs have blown out to such an extent, we are not bound to continue," he said.
How the F-35s compare

Here is how Australia's F-35s - billed as the smartest fighter jets on the planet - will stack up against our regional neighbours' air forces.

"We are committed to the program. Every indicator at the moment indicates that the costs are headed in the right direction for us so I'm not anticipating any drama, but should there be a major turnaround in cost then, you know, the option is available for us to leave the program..."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-23/australia-to-buy-58-more-joint-strike-fighters/5405236

The first 14 appear to have been funded earlier:

...
In November 2009, the Government approved funding for Phase 2A/B (Stage 1) to acquire 14 CTOL F-35A aircraft, support and enabling elements required to establish the initial pilot and maintainer training capability in the US and to allow conduct of operational test in the US and Australia. The first two F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft will be delivered in the US in 2014. The delivery of the next 12 aircraft, originally scheduled for delivery in the 2015-2017 timeframe, will now be delayed by two years...
http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/about/domains/nacc.cfm

And from 2009:

THE Rudd government has given the green light to Australia's largest ever defence purchase, approving a buy of 14 F-35 joint strike fighters at a cost of $3.2 billion...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/kevin-rudd-signs-off-on-purchase-of-14-f-35-joint-strike-fighters/story-e6frg8yo-1225803790418

So that would put the total cost for 72 at Oz $15.6B--rather more than our $9B for 65 (our dollars are roughly at par).

Mark
Ottawa
 
Micheal Byers is saying "Thank god for the CF-18's". I so am going to enjoy saying to him one day; "thank you for supporting buying new fighters for the CF!!!!" ;D

Canadians are lucky to still have fighter jets that can go toe-to-toe with Russian MiGs and Sukhois. The fast and manoeuvrable CF-18s were built during the Cold War specifically for aerial combat.

The F-35s that Canada is considering purchasing, however, are designed for a very different mission: evading air defences during the first wave of “shock-and-awe” attacks on the command sites, radar bases and anti-aircraft missiles of “rogue states” such as Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran.

The recent decision to deploy six CF-18s to Poland is almost serendipitous. Earlier this month, Stephen Harper received a long awaited “options analysis” from the Royal Canadian Air Force concerning the possible replacements for those jets.

Soon, the Prime Minister will have to decide whether to push ahead with the purchase of F-35s, or hold a competition involving alternative aircraft.

All the alternatives — the Boeing Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Dassault Rafale — are designed first and foremost for dogfighting with other fighter jets.

The F-35, in contrast, is a compromise aircraft that stems from the Pentagon’s desire to procure a single model for the Air Force, Navy and Marines: an unachievable aircraft that would land vertically, evade radar detection, conduct ground attacks, and still hold its own in aerial combat.

Instead, all three versions of the F-35 are oversized, overweight, underpowered — and still under development.

rest at link http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/04/28/michael-byers-thank-goodness-for-the-cf-18s/
 
Colin P said:
Canadians are lucky to still have fighter jets that can go toe-to-toe with Russian MiGs and Sukhois. The fast and manoeuvrable CF-18s were built during the Cold War specifically for aerial combat.

The F-35s that Canada is considering purchasing, however, are designed for a very different mission: evading air defences during the first wave of “shock-and-awe” attacks on the command sites, radar bases and anti-aircraft missiles of “rogue states” such as Iraq, Libya, Syria and Iran.

Blah blah blah....

All the alternatives — the Boeing Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Dassault Rafale — are designed first and foremost for dogfighting with other fighter jets.

The F-35, in contrast, is a compromise aircraft that stems from the Pentagon’s desire to procure a single model for the Air Force, Navy and Marines: an unachievable aircraft that would land vertically, evade radar detection, conduct ground attacks, and still hold its own in aerial combat.

Instead, all three versions of the F-35 are oversized, overweight, underpowered — and still under development.

rest at link http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/04/28/michael-byers-thank-goodness-for-the-cf-18s/

Are we really supposed to take this seriously?  There are 3 platforms realistically made specifically for a2a engagements; the Eagle, the Raptor, and the Typhoon.  Every other design has been multi role from the start, except for the Viper which is now showing its versatility in the a2g arena after starting out as a low cost day fighter.

One day someone will actually do some homework and research what they are talking about...until that day...I will continue to do this... ::)
 
If below is to be believed than the stealth part of needing this jet is over rated.......


New U.S. Stealth Jet Can’t Hide From Russian Radar

America’s gazillion-dollar Joint Strike Fighter is supposed to go virtually unseen when flying over enemy turf. But that’s not how things are working out.The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter—the jet that the Pentagon is counting on to be the stealthy future of its tactical aircraft—is having all sorts of shortcomings. But the most serious may be that the JSF is not, in fact, stealthy in the eyes of a growing number of Russian and Chinese radars. Nor is it particularly good at jamming enemy radar. Which means the Defense Department is committing hundreds of billions of dollars to a fighter that will need the help of specialized jamming aircraft that protect non-stealthy—“radar-shiny,” as some insiders call them—aircraft today.

More at link

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/28/new-u-s-stealth-jet-can-t-hide-from-russian-radar.html
 
If you can convince the other side not to pursue a technology that you can't match, by claiming you can already match it, then you have won 1/2 the battle, Sun Tzu would be pleased.  8)
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Which means the Defense Department is committing hundreds of billions of dollars to a fighter that will need the help of specialized jamming aircraft that protect non-stealthy—“radar-shiny,” as some insiders call them—aircraft today.

Again...how is this news?  They developed the Raven, the Prowler, and the Growler to protect existing fleets...and I'm quite certain the planes they were protecting, including Eagles, Tomcats, Vipers, and others, surely cost in the hundreds of billions of dollars.

Again.... ::)
 
Just to wrap my head around this.  The F35 is only kind of stealthy and can be seen by Chinese and Russian radar and this do it all aircraft it will need another aircraft to help it survive?

Does it at least have good firepower and good range?
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
Just to wrap my head around this.  The F35 is only kind of stealthy and can be seen by Chinese and Russian radar and this do it all aircraft it will need another less expensive aircraft to help it survive?

Does it at least have good firepower and good range?

Fixed that for you. ;)
 
Stealth is not absolute.  Regardless of the design, you'll always be more or less visible in a radar band or another.

Whether a weapon solution can be derived from a track or not is another matter.  Seeing is one thing.  Shooting is something else...
 
SupersonicMax said:
Stealth is not absolute.  Regardless of the design, you'll always be more or less visible in a radar band or another.

Whether a weapon solution can be derived from a track or not is another matter.  Seeing is one thing.  Shooting is something else...

From what I can gather  its the size of the radar signature, along with tactics (ie flying the thing) that will enable a "stealth" aircraft to get much closer to a target than a conventional aircraft.....am I basically correct here?

 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
If below is to be believed than the stealth part of needing this jet is over rated.......


New U.S. Stealth Jet Can’t Hide From Russian Radar

America’s gazillion-dollar Joint Strike Fighter is supposed to go virtually unseen when flying over enemy turf. But that’s not how things are working out.The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter—the jet that the Pentagon is counting on to be the stealthy future of its tactical aircraft—is having all sorts of shortcomings. But the most serious may be that the JSF is not, in fact, stealthy in the eyes of a growing number of Russian and Chinese radars. Nor is it particularly good at jamming enemy radar. Which means the Defense Department is committing hundreds of billions of dollars to a fighter that will need the help of specialized jamming aircraft that protect non-stealthy—“radar-shiny,” as some insiders call them—aircraft today.

More at link

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/28/new-u-s-stealth-jet-can-t-hide-from-russian-radar.html

Sweetman is a joke and his latest articles are sounds of desperation more than anything else. He isn't even a journalist any more, just your typical anti-F35 fanboi with a blog.
 
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