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Election 2015

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jollyjacktar said:
I wonder what effect a protracted campaign would have upon the electorate at large?  Would they be so bloody sick and tried of the monkey show come election day that they would not come out to vote with the exception of the various loyalists?  How might that translate into vote results for the various clans?

I would say that the same as we have already witnessed in Ontario and Alberta.  The fanatically loyal will vote in which ever party they belong to, against the better judgement of the majority who did not vote; if that makes any sense.
 
George Wallace said:
I would say that the same as we have already witnessed in Ontario and Alberta.  The fanatically loyal will vote in which ever party they belong to, against the better judgement of the majority who did not vote; if that makes any sense.

Granted.  I'll rephrase.  Which party might this benefit more, which is to say whose grass roots are stronger and more committed?  Would the CPC be able to count on this as an additional weapon in the armoury.  A weapon of mass distraction if you like.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The only way to change things, like the Senate, is to open up the Constitution for renegotiation , but only a crazy person wants to do that

I didn't say it was easy.  I agree that it is hard.  And I agree that the PM would have to spend some of his political capital to make it happen.  What irks me is that when push comes to shove, the Party's political calculations always come first.  And, I will add, that was also the case with the previous government.

I personally don't care what party is in power, as long as they govern for the good of the country.  When they govern for the good of the party, I will no longer support them.  I am not saying the Liberals or the NDP would be any better, but I am explaining why I no longer can support the CPC in its present state. Everything they do is to serve their party political calculations foremost, and that is not why we have governments in democracies.

Harrigan
 
Brad Sallows said:
>I said they would compare the Chretien/Martin era from 1993-2006 to Harper's term, and it would look favourable for them.

But to make that point you have to evade reality: without the 2008 fiscal meltdown, the likelihood of any deficits would be zero or close to it - a run of surpluses from 1997 to 2015 would not really yield a favourable comparison to either side.

There is a difference between handling a rough economy well or fairly, and handling it poorly.  I suppose we have yet to see where ON ends up.

Who is evading reality?  The Liberals can point to their actual results from 1993-2006, with real numbers.  You are basing your comparison on what you think the Harper government would have done if there had been no recession.  Those are imaginary numbers.  (and besides, you know the trendline from 2006 was downhill well before the recession kicked off).

In the end, it doesn't really matter if evidence doesn't affect your opinion.

My point is that the Liberals will use those comparisons to the general public regardless.  Remember back to the beginning of our exchange, you stated that the CPC will hold the advantage due to the lack of the opposition parties having any evidence of managing the economy better.  I am suggesting there is ample evidence that the Liberals will use (I didn't say the NDP would use it) to suggest that they, in fact, do have the credibility to manage the economy.  They will point to their MP's, including the most recent Liberal Finance Minister, and no doubt will mention that EVERY federal budget he brought down was balanced, and that the surplus was used to pay down the national debt.

Is it fair to Harper?  No, not particularly.  I agree with you that the Harper Government has managed the economy fairly - they have not handled it poorly in my opinion.  But it is wrong to state that the other parties cannot offer a credible alternative.  They can, and they will, and the government will need to come up with a better rebuttal than "if there hadn't been a recession, our budgets would have been all sunshine and roses".

Harrigan

 
Harrigan said:
Who is evading reality?  The Liberals can point to their actual results from 1993-2006, with real numbers.  You are basing your comparison on what you think the Harper government would have done if there had been no recession.  Those are imaginary numbers.  (and besides, you know the trendline from 2006 was downhill well before the recession kicked off).

In the end, it doesn't really matter if evidence doesn't affect your opinion.

My point is that the Liberals will use those comparisons to the general public regardless.  Remember back to the beginning of our exchange, you stated that the CPC will hold the advantage due to the lack of the opposition parties having any evidence of managing the economy better.  I am suggesting there is ample evidence that the Liberals will use (I didn't say the NDP would use it) to suggest that they, in fact, do have the credibility to manage the economy.  They will point to their MP's, including the most recent Liberal Finance Minister, and no doubt will mention that EVERY federal budget he brought down was balanced, and that the surplus was used to pay down the national debt.

Is it fair to Harper?  No, not particularly.  I agree with you that the Harper Government has managed the economy fairly - they have not handled it poorly in my opinion.  But it is wrong to state that the other parties cannot offer a credible alternative.They can, and they will, M'Lud - Objection: Conjecture - offers an opinion as fact.  Insofar as the event has not yet occured we cannot know the outcome.. and the government will need to come up with a better rebuttal than "if there hadn't been a recession, our budgets would have been all sunshine and roses".

Harrigan
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Really?  That's your response?

Yes.  You need to find a red herring matched more closely than "appointed commander" and "elected leader" to make it worthwhile discussing.

I don't need to rephrase it - you know exactly what I am talking about and are being deliberately obtuse.  You know what we would think of our CO's if they always put "political considerations" above all.

>I expect the PM to put the good of the nation ahead of personal political considerations.\

I hope for it; I don't expect it.  That aside, the good of the nation isn't at stake.  The Senate may be unsightly but it isn't a hindrance.  The fact the provinces are not moved to intervene is good enough evidence that Senate reform is not a priority.

>And what contemporary political considerations that are so much more limiting than in 1982, 1987, or 1990 are those?

That there is nothing in reform that can satisfy the provinces who want abolition, and nothing in abolition that can satisfy the provinces who want to keep it and reform it.
Yes, a method to amend exists.  One can only wonder why it is so rarely successfully used.

- How does the federal government know what the provinces would want in return for Senate abolition if the PM never meets with the Premiers to discuss the issue?  Is this the same crystal-ball power that cites 'unreported crime' figures?  ;)

- If you are happy to never change existing laws that the public doesn't support, then why bother having a government?

I only "know" what has been reported so far.  What is it that "links" it to the PMO in a manner you find scandalous?  That Harper told Duffy to repay claimed expenses?  That the COS floated Duffy a private loan?  I haven't read yet any proof advanced that Harper instructed Duffy to cheat on expenses.

Well, that's the whole point, isn't it?  To find out what happened.  If the PM had nothing to do with it (which is certainly likely), then there is nothing to fear, is there?  In a more general sense, though, it is pretty hard to suggest the PM has nothing to do with the Senate when they sit in Cabinet, and 48 of the 83 active Senators were appointed by him (58%).

I'm not, and I didn't.  I find it important to distinguish between mere personal corruption and institutional party corruption.  I think the latter merits a much stronger response than the former.  Clear enough?
When the Conservatives are found to be as corrupt as the Liberals were, they should be thrown out (not given a minority government).  We are not yet there.

LOL, that is never going to happen then, is it?  If one doesn't have more than enough proof that the CPC in the last 10 years is as "institutionally corrupt" as the Liberals were in 2006, then one never will.  Did you ever stop and wonder why the ceiling for the CPC is only around 40%?

I meant only what I wrote.  "The media" did a good job explaining the difference between the way the system works and the way people felt it ought to work in 2008. 

How very Calandra-esque of you.  Which of these two "sides" are coalitions on?  We may have found something that we agree on, but I am not sure.....

"The media" do not seem to be too interested in educating voters that this is a Senate problem, not a House problem.

I have not seen anything in "the media" that suggests this is a "House" problem, so I am not sure what you mean by that.  Everyone knows this is a Senate problem, and that involves both the Cabinet and the PMO, who hold sway over both House AND Senate. 

Harrigan
 

Not opinion at all, Kirkhill.  Look at Ralph Goodale's website - it mentions his balanced budgets and those of the Liberal Party.  Did you think they would forget to mention that?

https://ralphgoodale.liberal.ca/

Harrigan
 
- How does the federal government know what the provinces would want in return for Senate abolition if the PM never meets with the Premiers to discuss the issue?  Is this the same crystal-ball power that cites 'unreported crime' figures?  ;)

M'Lud - Conjecture.  It supposes that merely because meetings are not held in great halls with audiences and cameras that meetings, and discussions, and communications do not occur.

We know that discussions in public are more spectacular than productive.

 
Harrigan said:
Not opinion at all, Kirkhill.  Look at Ralph Goodale's website - it mentions his balanced budgets and those of the Liberal Party.  Did you think they would forget to mention that?

https://ralphgoodale.liberal.ca/

Harrigan

Ralph Goodale was one of a team.  That team does not exist.
 
Kirkhill said:
M'Lud - Conjecture.  It supposes that merely because meetings are not held in great halls with audiences and cameras that meetings, and discussions, and communications do not occur.

We know that discussions in public are more spectacular than productive.

Oh, I see.  My comments are conjecture, but you can claim that the govt knows all province's 'demands' on potential Senate Reform from 'secret' meetings. 
Right then, you sure showed me.....

Harrigan
 
Kirkhill said:
Ralph Goodale was one of a team.  That team does not exist.

LOL, so even presented with evidence of the Liberals using the tactic (which is what you disagreed with me on), you will just pretend the evidence doesn't exist.

Nobody asked you to believe their tactic, but to pretend they just won't mention it is simply fantasy.

Harrigan
 
Coalitions

The article below, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the National Post, is by Jamey Heath, a well known NDP insider/advocate so it must be read with that fact in mind.

Mr Heath's main point is that some sort of "anti-Conservative" coalition is necessary, because, he says, "Disagreeing with Harper is all well and good. But too often tales are spun about the kind of country he inherited, whose core values he has since allegedly botched. They are mostly untrue. Under Harper, we used fiscal stimulus during a downturn. Equal marriage and abortion are untouched. We’re also still an environmental laggard — as we always were — despite Elizabeth May saying we were a world leader before Harper. It’s piffle." In other words, if Canadians are ever allowed (by the media and the "Harper Haters"TM) to consider what Prime Minister Harper actually means (values) and does (record) they will not be depressed and the CPC will continue to govern.

Mr Heath wants unity on the progressive/left; he wants a formal coalition agreement; he'll settle for some realism amongst Liberals.

Why do the Liberals renounce coalitions while the NDP favours them? In my opinion the answer is twofold:

    First: Prime Minister Harper ran a short but masterful PR campaign against them that resonated with Canadians. It would not have succeeded had the Liberals had any response, at all, to his critique, but it did not. That, the Conservative
              "No" campaign, was not the key issue, however.

    Second: The key can be found in the 1985 "Accord" between Ontario Opposition Leader David Peterson and (third party) NDP leader Bob Rae that gave Mr Peterson a minority government with NDP support. Liberals still  believe that the ND
                  benefitted most from the "Accord" and that it, rather than L<iberal corruption and ineptitude, led to Bob Rae's electoral victory in 1990.

Coalitions, at least those with the NDP, still frighten most Liberals.

For the same reasons, coalitions, with the Liberals, are attractive to the NDP.

Reminder: nothing that Prime Minister Harper said made coalitions anything other than 100% legal, proper and respectable in our Westminster style of parliamentary government. They have been here before (the Unionist government, here in Canada, in 1917, the (brief) Progressive/Conservative coalition in 1925 (the King-Byng thing) (which eventually led to formal union of the two parties in the 1940s) and, in the UK, MacDonald's National Government in the 1930s and Churchill's wartime coalition in the '40s, all come to mind) and there is no reason why they cannot be here again. While I agree with Prime Minister Harper that it would be proper for parties to announce their intentions or, at least, willingness to enter into formal coalitions or accords with other, specificaly named parties, it is not mandatory.

That being said, here is Jamey Heath's opinion piece:

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/jamey-heath-the-liberals-are-an-obstacle-to-true-progressive-policies
image_4.png

The Liberals are an obstacle to true progressive policies

Jamey Heath, National Post | July 16, 2015

Monty Python’s timeless take on progressives pits the lamentable People’s Front of Judea against the woeful Judean People’s Front, hurling insults at one another across an empty Roman coliseum. Those, sad to say, were the days.

Today, the centre-left sprouts ever more new organizations not to disagree with each other, but to say much the same thing. Each week, it seems, brings another activist group dedicated to dealing with economic unfairness, or a changing climate, or … fill-in-the-issue-here. Policy differences are slight, the main thrust always the same: Stephen Harper is a wicked, wicked conservative who took Canada and wrecked it.

Disagreeing with Harper is all well and good. But too often tales are spun about the kind of country he inherited, whose core values he has since allegedly botched. They are mostly untrue. Under Harper, we used fiscal stimulus during a downturn. Equal marriage and abortion are untouched. We’re also still an environmental laggard — as we always were — despite Elizabeth May saying we were a world leader before Harper. It’s piffle.

          When people do comparison shop among the centre-left parties, the sky doesn’t fall. Life goes on for the left despite Trudeau’s slide to the bottom of the polls, likely greased in part by Liberal support for Harper’s Bill C-51.

And the longer he’s in office, the worse the national myth-making gets. A big reason why is that the English-Canadian elite can’t stomach Barack Obama being president at the exact moment we’re stuck with “him.” This American-envy explains why many Democratic politicos now work in the centre-left here, for political parties or supposedly non-partisan groups.

I say “non-partisan” only because that’s how many have come to label their often curdling anti-Tory venom. It’s an absurd description, but makes warped sense if you believe Canada was indeed a quasi-pacifist, ever-green utopia of egalitarianism before Harper turned it into a snowy Mississippi. And the more time passes, the more people pine for things that never were.

This sort of false nostalgia is especially convenient to Liberals, the party that ruled over that mythical land. So it’s no wonder that Liberals, above all, are so anxious to retain our sadly splintered party system, in place of the two-way debate that other Western democracies enjoy. To their credit, Canadian conservatives came to realize the folly of this some years ago, which is why they got their act together and created a common vehicle for elections.

Canadian progressives have yet to really try. Instead, since they can all agree that Democrats are good/Republicans are bad, they spend their time mimicking American debates about economic or racial equality, immigration or social issues, which rarely apply north of the border. Our national discussion is much more about language than race; east-west, not north-south. Plus, on the centre-left’s usual trump card — economic fairness — our party of the 1% isn’t the Conservatives: it’s the Liberals.

Still, American critiques of economic unfairness find echoes elsewhere, so as usual Liberals tried to appropriate the discussion to themselves. Last time they were out of office, the environment was the big new idea, so they glommed onto that. Now, it’s the widening gap between rich and poor. It’s such a big deal, Conservative-turned-Liberal MP Eve Adams said, that it drove her away from Harper, to help Justin Trudeau spark a U.S.-style class war.

The intellectual heft for this campaign, we’re told, is supplied by Toronto Liberal MP Chrystia Freeland, a frequent commentator in the U.S. who returned to Canada, ostensibly, to create a fairer economy. It’s obvious which party she’d pick south of the border, but less clear north of it. The issue had preoccupied the Democrats, with whom she was aligned, for some time, though New Democrats haven’t exactly been mute about it over the years.

          The federal Liberals . . . delayed introducing basic social programs for decades after comparable countries, including the U.S., got theirs. In the Nineties, they frayed the social safety net, then spent the surplus on an orgy of tax cuts
        tilted to the very well-to-do


The federal Liberals, by contrast, delayed introducing basic social programs for decades after comparable countries, including the U.S., got theirs. In the Nineties, they frayed the social safety net, then spent the surplus on an orgy of tax cuts tilted to the very well-to-do. Yet there she sits, one more voice in the Harper-hating choir, in a party whose most likely contribution in the coming election will be to keep him in power.

Which brings us back to the growing number of splinter groups working on federal issues, and whether two-sided debates can be made to work when there are up to five parties. May’s basic case is that they do — that beating *him* is easier the more bellicose and divided the opposition becomes.

Still, when people do comparison shop among the centre-left parties, the sky doesn’t fall. Life goes on for the left despite Trudeau’s slide to the bottom of the polls, likely greased in part by Liberal support for Harper’s Bill C-51.

The mystery is why, with two-sided debate already here, there isn’t a louder clamour for some sort of arrangement among the parties of the left to help it work. Formal co-operation or merger is off the table for now (for Trudeau, tellingly, so is a coalition), but fixing the divide amongst progressives needn’t wait for the Liberal party to agree. Especially with the NDP well ahead in Quebec, and the Liberals led by their lightest leader, well, ever.

Our long overdue realignment, rather, can be nudged along in places like Freeland’s Toronto backyard, by the steady erosion of support for the main structural obstacle — the Liberal Party of Canada — to the creation of a single national voice for progressives. That won’t be music to many Liberals’ ears, but it should resonate with others who are tired of sounding like a comedy skit.

National Post

Jamey Heath is senior strategist at KTG Public Affairs and was former research and communications director for the NDP.

This is one shot in an ongoing, since at least the 1980s, civl war on the progressive/left of the political spectrum. In parallels the one on the right, in the 1990s, between the Progressive Conservatives and Reform (and its offshoots). The progressive civil war started, within the Liberal Party in 1960, at the Kingston Conference which led to a sharp lurch to the left in Liberal rhetoric but which was not always (not usually) matched by left leaning actions by Liberal governments ~ not even as often as real progressives wanted under Pierre Trudeau.

Edit: format
 
I think you need to take a deep breath and re look at what is being said.

Ralph Goodale represents a time and place which no longer exists, and he himself is no longer in a position to do much, if anything about the budget. Two possible responses to Goodale's website are "So?" and "What have you done lately?" There is little to no evidence that the Young Dauphin's team is committed to prudent spending and fiscal responsibility, if anything ("The budget will balance itself") the evidence would point to quite the opposite conclusion.

WRT what is going on behind closed doors, you don't know that and neither do I or anyone else who is not at the meeting. If the PMO and PCO have been sounding people out in private and come to the conclusion that going further along that line would be pointless or divisive, that is an equally valid explanation as anything you have come up with, and has an equal amount of evidence.

Finally, please re read your assertion that the political parties should not run things for the benefit of political parties. How realistic is that? Define "The good of the country" in a way that Kirkhill, Brad, Edward, Kilo, and I would all agree with. Can you think of a political system, anywhere and at any time where the rulers did not manipulate the system to benefit themselves? The best attempt to prevent this; the US Constitution with its elaborate Enlightenment philosophy of checks and balances is under a great deal of stress as generations of politicians, judges and bureaucrats attempt to exploit weakness and inconsistencies that were discovered in the document. The best we can hope for is to limit the power of the State to minimize the ability of these manipulation and distortions to affect the day to day lives of people.

Governing (as opposed to Politics) is the art of the possible, which generally means moving in small increments and making the "least worst choice" of all those available.
 
Harrigan said:
Oh, I see.  My comments are conjecture, but you can claim that the govt knows all province's 'demands' on potential Senate Reform from 'secret' meetings. 
Right then, you sure showed me.....

Harrigan

No. Not all your comments are conjecture.  I only highlighted two.

I do NOT know that discussions have been held.  I do NOT know that the PM has a sense of the Provinces' positions.  To suppose that would indeed be conjecture.  I merely suggest that there are more possibilities than that which you supposed.

On the other hand, I do KNOW, that public meetings in front of audiences are not productive.  The Railway Station in Ottawa has more in common with the Colosseum and the Globe Theatre than with a Courtroom.

As to tactics: It was not clear to me that you were discussing tactics.  If we are solely discussing tactics then I can admit that proposing Ralph Goodale as the conduit for Paul Martin's 10 year old policies is a tactic.


Edit: - What Thuc said.

Edit again: On the art of the possible.  One thing that people overlook when electing someone is there ability to get things done.  They are hiring an agent - as in a real estate type of agent - an interlocutor.  They are hiring someone who not only enjoys the respect of his clients but also the people with whom he will be negotiating.

European voters have been getting an object lesson in that fact over the last few years with Eurocrats ensuring that they get the agent that appeals to them and not necessarily to the agents' clients.  Tsipras is only the latest agent to be cold-shouldered.

 
http://epaper.nationalpost.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

National Post - John Ivison - 17 Jul 15

Memo to Quebec, Ontario: Oil is good

Economies have been creating significant opportunities for all Canadians

Brad Wall’s suggestion that central Canadian premiers might be more amenable to a pipeline through their provinces if it pumped equalization payments will do little to endear him to his fellow minor league leaders.

The Saskatchewan premier flew in late to St. John’s because of the fires in his province, to join the annual Council of the Federation whinge-fest.

One of the eye-glazing communiqués set for release is a new Canadian Energy Strategy. This was first proposed in 2012 by then-Alberta premier Alison Redford, with the goal of improving market access for Alberta crude. Since her departure from the scene, the lead has been taken by Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne, and the focus has shifted to climate change and green energy.

The new strategy is heavy on increased emphasis on solar and renewable energy and light on commitments to pipelines, according to a draft leaked to the media.

The premiers have been bombarded by calls from environmental groups to ensure there is no role for oilsands growth in the new strategy and those voices appear to have been heard.

Wall has expressed his frustration that the plan suggests an embarrassment about oil and gas “and the investments they make possible.”

He is particularly upset with his counterparts in Ontario and Quebec, who have been cool toward the Energy East proposal by TransCanada, a $12-billion investment that would convert 3,000 km of existing natural-gas pipeline, augmented by 1,400 km of new pipeline from Quebec to refineries in Saint John, N.B. The Canadian Press reported this week that Philippe Couillard, the Quebec Premier, said the climatechange policies around the pipeline need to improve before his province can get behind Energy East. Polls suggest two-thirds of Quebecers oppose the pipeline.

Wynne, with her plan to reduce provincial emissions by 80 per cent below 1990 levels by 2050, has been equally ambivalent.

New Alberta Premier Rachel Notley met with Couillard in Quebec City earlier this week and seemed fine with a de facto veto over Energy East by Canada’s big provinces. “If we’re able to move forward on (climate change) in a meaningful and convincing way, there’s more likelihood of Quebec coming to terms with it,” she said.

The implication is that if Quebec doesn’t like Alberta’s action it will kill the entire project, using a veto power it doesn’t have in the Constitution — death by a thousand regulations.

Wall said he “categorically rejects” the idea of one province vetoing pipeline construction because it doesn’t like the environmental record of another. He pointed out that Energy East is three-quarters a conversion — rather than a new project — and that it will benefit the whole country.

“There is a growing sense of frustration in the West that our economies have been creating significant opportunities for all Canadians,” he said. “In terms of a licence to build a pipeline, or in this case, simply convert a pipeline to move western energy across the country, how about $10-billion in equalization?”

He has a point — Canada is a federation, not a patchwork of antithetical interests; an economic, as well as a political, union.

Even in an era of depressed oil prices, the country loses billions of dollars because of lack of market access. Benefits from Energy East would be felt everywhere — a Deloitte study suggested it would contribute $6 billion to the GDP of Quebec and $13 billion to Ontario over its lifespan.

If it is not completed, more oil will go by train, which is a more dangerous and polluting means of transporting crude.

Ontario and Quebec previously released the seven conditions for their consent. On climate change, they were specific — they asked the National Energy Board to look at greenhouse-gas emissions produced by the pipeline in their respective provinces, not an environmental review of the entire oilpatch, and certainly not an audit of another province’s green credentials.

In St. John’s, Wynne said she knows the value of the energy sector, but “we’re running out of time” to deal with climate change.

From Notley and Wall’s comments, it seems the goalposts have shifted.

It’s another example that left-ofcentre governments in Canada’s two largest provinces have lost sight of the need to generate revenue before they can spend it.

Sergio Marchionne, the Chrysler CEO, warned Wynne recently that Ontario needs to create the conditions to be competitive, pointing out that an Ontario Retirement Pension Plan and a new cap-andtrade system would add to the cost of running businesses in a province that already has the highest electricity rates in North America.

A new Industry Canada report suggests Ontario has lost 212,000 manufacturing jobs in the past decade, and Quebec nearly 100,000.

Energy East, of all pipeline proposals on offer, really is a “nobrainer.”

Some of the comments are interesting such as this from DonG:
The fact that Alberta is even listening to the biggest failures ,as provinces in Canadian history, is frightening.  These two provinces are Greek wannabes Entitled to their entitlements and have been kept afloat by the equlizations payments received from Alberta and Saskatchewan oil. They have been the biggest winners of the oil fields of the two most successful and prosperous provinces in Canada, and now are demanding that we follow them down their path of self destruction. Over the last ten years they have stolen over a hundred billion dollars from our successful economies to cover their failures, and have the nerve to even suggest they know what's best for us is beyond funny.  Ontario and Quebec would drag Alberta and Saskatchewan down into a Greek style failure. We have been financing their failures, and they criticizing the west for not giving them more.  Ontario and Quebec have the highest debt ratio in Canada, highest taxes in Canada and the heightest electricity rates in Canada and and have the nerve to suggest they know what's best for us, God help the west because the east will destroy us.  Their green power plan is blowing up in their face and is a monumental failure and they are demanding that we follow them down this path of self destruction. That our new primeur in Alberta is even listening to these Greeks barring gifts, is the start of the Wests collapse. Ontario and Quebec had best be careful what they wish for because they are going to get what they want, no equalization transfers, and they are going to self distruct with out the Wests money and they will blame Alberta for it.
 
Trains move Alberta and Saskatchewan and BC and Newfoundland oil using their own oil.

Pipelines move the same oil using Quebec and Ontario and BC hydro.
 
After today's announcement from NEXEN about this latest spill, I wonder how much this will set pipeline talk backwards.  Just when you think they're making progress, someone sh1ts the bed.  Thanks, NEXEN...
 
Yep and Mount Polly kicked the mining community in the groin. It's one thing to say we go by the highest standards, another to actually do so and maintain them when things get tight.
 
jollyjacktar said:
After today's announcement from NEXEN about this latest spill, I wonder how much this will set pipeline talk backwards.  Just when you think they're making progress, someone sh1ts the bed.  Thanks, NEXEN...

5 million litres equals 66 rail cars.  A train is something like 100 cars long with consideration being given to 250 car trains. 

http://cprailmmsub.blogspot.ca/2011/09/train-length-how-long-can-they-go.html

Bad things happen all the time.  You can't prevent them.  You can manage them after the fact.
 
Kirkhill said:
5 million litres equals 66 rail cars.  A train is something like 100 cars long with consideration being given to 250 car trains. 

http://cprailmmsub.blogspot.ca/2011/09/train-length-how-long-can-they-go.html

Bad things happen all the time.  You can't prevent them.  You can manage them after the fact.

66 rail cars doesn't sound so bad (and I do have experience in loading cars with molten sulphur) so I can visualize and get a grip on it.  But of course the number that's going to he bantered about by the MSM, environment movement/anti pipeline mob is 5 million litres.  That sounds much worse and will play out well for their side of the game with the hearts and minds of the general public.  It also doesn't help that this is a new line as well.
 
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