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Election 2015

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Lumber said:
I hope, for stability's sake, that if the Liberals do win, that they either get a majority

That'd likely be worse than a NDP minority. Look what the Wynne Liberals are doing to Ontario, and its all the same characters advising Trudeau. Entire country would be in an economic crapper faster than you can blink.
 
PuckChaser said:
Half of them are Trudeau advisors. His platform has read like the NDP platform from the 1990s. If they drag the LPC left, blue Liberals will likely sit as independents or vote against. I doubt they'll cross the floor, but a lot won't tow the line.

Whatever the result on 20 October, we're in for a gongshow of epic proportions, because the Tories and NDP likely can afford to go to an election again right away. The Liberals in 2008 could not, which let us have one of the longest minorities on record. I'd expect another election in fall 2016, and voter apathy will be high.
why does this myth persist?

Can anyone explain this to me?

The LPC has brought in as much if not more money than the NDP.


http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/co...tals-1.3057522

As of this may, party fundraising for Q1

CPC 6.3 million

LPC 3.8 million

NDP 2.3 million.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blo...ndraising-race

Q2 results

CPC 7.4 million

NDP 4.5 million

LPC 4 million

So why why why does this myth persist?
 
I didn't say the LPC couldn't this time. I said they couldn't in 2008 which let the minority government run by Harper last a lot longer than the norm.

You've trotted out all those fundraising stats before, we get it, the LPC has money now. Nobody's said anything to the contrary.
 
PuckChaser said:
I didn't say the LPC couldn't this time. I said they couldn't in 2008 which let the minority government run by Harper last a lot longer than the norm.

You've trotted out all those fundraising stats before, we get it, the LPC has money now. Nobody's said anything to the contrary.
I see, the highlighted part in yellow with the mention of LPC money troubles of 2008 led me to assume you were saying they were broke.

Which in almost fairness, has been said here multiple times before.
 
>I hope, for stability's sake, that if the Liberals do win, that they either get a majority, or that they manage to work out more deals with the CPC than the NDP.

The latter is more likely; it fits their tradition of deking left to campaign, then drifting back to the right to govern.  Also, they need to reclaim part of the centre.  Notwithstanding the popularity of the "extreme right-wing CPC" myth, it isn't because the CPC abandoned the centre and went foaming off to the far right that the Liberals have chosen to take the fight to the NDP's customary ground.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>I hope, for stability's sake, that if the Liberals do win, that they either get a majority, or that they manage to work out more deals with the CPC than the NDP.

The latter is more likely; it fits their tradition of deking left to campaign, then drifting back to the right to govern.  Also, they need to reclaim part of the centre.  Notwithstanding the popularity of the "extreme right-wing CPC" myth, it isn't because the CPC abandoned the centre and went foaming off to the far right that the Liberals have chosen to take the fight to the NDP's customary ground.

True. So, then why has everyone abandoned the middle?
 
Lumber said:
True. So, then why has everyone abandoned the middle?

The middle is what we need, not what we want. Flowery social programs, pleas to save the downtrodden middle class, and claims to legalize pot buy votes, but are never sustainable in the long run. People wonder why politicians lie, its because we vote for the ones that do.
 
Strategic voting is much in the news this morning, with two groups promoting it:

    1. The Liberal Party which is in search of the 20-40 seats it appears to need to win a majority; and

    2. Sundry Harper Hater™ groups that don't care much about policies or platforms ~ they just want prime Minister Harper out!

There are, equally, two groups opposed to strategic voting:

    1. The Conservatives, who are trying, desperately it appears, to "come up the middle" between two left of centre candidates in as many ridings as possible; and

    2. the target (progressive) parties (NDP, BQ and Greens) who are saying it's "undemocratic" to ask people to vote against someone, you should pick the candidate you want.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
  2. the target (progressive) parties (NDP, BQ and Greens) who are saying it's "undemocratic" to ask people to vote against someone, you should pick the candidate you want.

Of course they'd say that.  If there were more ridings in which they were the more likely candidate to unseat the CPC candidate, I'm sure it would be entirely democratic.

20151013_slide1.png


Tourniquet!!

;D
 
Underway said:
Yah...no.  Try more like the grasshopper was the antisocial being and the ant, living in the ultimate socialist community was going to be fine because she (all ants except haploid drones are female...Aesop was not a biologist) had a pension plan and socialized childcare like all the other ant workers.

I see you missed the sarcasm...I'll use a [sarcasm] tag next time.


Technically, since they were working in a capitalistic sytem, that would make the ant and all his hard-working friends anarcho-syndicalists.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Premier Wynne tries to woo suburbanites in the GTA and Golden Horseshoe, many of whom are opposed to her Ontario Retirement Pension Plan scheme.

I found it interesting yesterday, that she said she would drop the idea of creating an Ontario Retirement Pension Plan if Trudeau was elected.  Perhaps her whole plan all along was to raise an issue that indicated a conflict between the Conservative Government in Ottawa and her Provincial Government, with no real intent to create such a pension plan.  An intent to create conflict where none existed.
 
In this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, Jeffrey Simpson opines, correctly, I think, that "It really is all about Harper:"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/globe-politics-insider/jeffrey-simpson-it-really-is-all-about-harper-pro-and-con/article26793653/
gam-masthead.png

It really is all about Harper, pro and con

SUBSCRIBERS ONLY

Jeffrey Simpson
The Globe and Mail

Published Wednesday, Oct. 14, 2015

In a Conservative Party television advertisement, leader Stephen Harper says the election is really not about him but rather about the economy and how well his government has managed it.

If only it were that simple for the Conservatives. Yes, the economy is the underlying narrative of the campaign for all parties, but narrators – that is, party leaders – count for more than the narrative itself. To twist the aphorism of the late Marshall McLuhan, the messenger is the message.

That means the persona of Mr. Harper, more than anything else, is the centre of the Conservative campaign, and therefore the campaign is about him, more than anything else.

This must be so for a variety of reasons, beginning with the simplest: He has been Prime Minister for nine years. As such, he has been in the public spotlight, his deeds and words daily scrutinized. Books have been written about him. Cameras have followed him everywhere in Canada and abroad. He has been the dominant figure in the country’s public life for almost a decade.

Mr. Harper is running against the most powerful current in politics: time for a change. He must have known about this current when he decided to contest one more election, but he took the plunge. He would know enough Canadian history to appreciate that every prime minister who has tried to stretch his time in power lost at some point in the eight-to-11-year range. Canada does not have term limits in law; it seems to have them in practice.

More than any other factor, the time-for-a-change current focuses on the prime minister, who, in our system of government, is hugely powerful. Never was that observation more valid than in the Harper government, whose ministers have been reduced to secondary roles compared with the Prime Minister’s Office and those who run it.

Moreover, the Conservative Party now offers a very weak cabinet, with no serious countervailing voices to that of the Prime Minister. Had the Conservatives decided to run on the slogan of the “Harper team,” people everywhere would have laughed at them.

In the television age, which is now more than a half-century old, leaders are almost all that medium cares about. Personality over policy is a truism of TV. As any campaign rolls on – and this is the longest Canadian campaign since 1874 – media coverage becomes a following horse race, with the leader sucking almost all attention. After all, the leader is the principal spokesperson for the party so, to that extent, the election will be about the leader.

Mr. Harper, unlike former Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien, was, and remains, a highly polarizing figure. A large number of Canadians, judging by polls, dislike him intensely. Are these detractors more numerous than those who intensely disliked prime ministers Pierre Trudeau and Brian Mulroney in their time? It’s difficult to say.

What can be said is that those prime ministers led parties with wider support in the electorate than the Harper Conservatives. Even in winning a majority in 2011, they had a smaller share of the popular vote than the Progressive Conservatives did in 1988. So the share of the electorate not voting Conservative has been rising over the years. Put another way, in historical terms, the Harper Conservative Party is the smallest political vehicle for conservative forces in many decades.

And then there has been the government’s style: often abrasive, relentlessly partisan, thinking always of its “base,” willing to attack real or perceived foes. This style has been polarizing. It galvanizes supporters, whose convictions deepened that the party faces enemies who must be rebuffed. It galvanizes opponents to a passionate desire to rid the country of the other team’s captain and chief strategist, the prime minister.

Plaintive as the appeal might be from Mr. Harper that the election is not about him, the appeal is misguided. He is the vote driver, pro and con, in the campaign. He created, more than anyone else, the modern Conservative Party and has led it in power and out. He set the tone; he guided the policies; and now he speaks for the party in another campaign. The people’s verdict therefore will be, more than any other factor, about him.


I think that Mr Simpson has it here: "Mr. Harper is running against the most powerful current in politics: time for a change ... Canada does not have term limits in law; it seems to have them in practice ..." and here: "In the television age, which is now more than a half-century old, leaders are almost all that medium cares about. Personality over policy is a truism of TV."

I have mentioned, several times over the past two or three years that "political parties need to be refreshed and renewed" and the mechanism we have to tell them "it's time," is to send them to the opposition benches for a while. Six to ten years seems to be about the limit of our patience with any one leader, maybe even with any one party (for the last 30 years, anyway). Of course no political discussion can ever finish without a return to the Nixon-Kennedy debate. I believe it is a fact that TV ~ the medium, not the journalists ~ "likes" M Trudeau and is cruel to Prime Minister Harper. It's not a fault or a strength for either man, it's just the nature of the medium. So, two factors: voter fatigue and TV and both have worked and are working against the prime minister.

Should Stephen Harper have resigned the CPC leadership, back in 2013/14 when it became obvious that M Trudeau was very, very strong on personal appeal? It's an open question ... could Jason Kenney beat M Trudeau in this election? I think not. John Baird or Rona Ambrose? ... maybe, but it would still be an uphill battle against the "time for a change" factor.

Are we shifting towards a de facto term limits system?
 
There might still be a bit of hope for Conservatives.  Less that a week ago they were still ahead in more than one poll. 

Regardless of what happens, Mulcair's head will be on a pike.  I'm not sure if he will go willingly as he might have a hard time with the reduction in pay from opposition leader.  He might have to remortgage his house for the 12th time.  He diluted the communist rhetoric and failed miserably.

 
Here is yesterday's Ipsos data ...

   
12105808_1245077095518631_2354738512558435233_n.jpg

    Source: David Akin, Sun News

          ... which is almost the same as the EKOS numbers.

It is, now, faint hope time for the CPC. Yes, they can, theoretically, pull it out, but it doesn't look good, with only 4½ days of campaigning to go.

For the LPC: depending on vote efficiency, they are within 2 or 3 points of majority territory.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
In this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, Jeffrey Simpson opines, correctly, I think, that "It really is all about Harper:"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/globe-politics-insider/jeffrey-simpson-it-really-is-all-about-harper-pro-and-con/article26793653/

Mr. Harper, unlike former Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien, was, and remains, a highly polarizing figure. A large number of Canadians, judging by polls, dislike him intensely. Are these detractors more numerous than those who intensely disliked prime ministers Pierre Trudeau and Brian Mulroney in their time? It’s difficult to say.

This is something that I've always been confused about. I grew up hearing about how great a PM Pierre Trudeau was, and I still hear it all the time that "Pierre Trudeau was our greatest PM!" In fact, when the CBC ran "The Greatest Canadian", Pierre Trudeau was ranked the 3rd greatest Canadian in history!

But, as I grew older, started paying attention to politics and attending University, I discovered another cadre of people; those who think he is the worst Prime Minister in history. I know some of you here have said those exact words, "Pierre Trudeau is the worst PM ever." I got my worst grade in my entire time at University by writing a paper in history class whose thesis was basically "Pierre Trudea was the Greatest PM". I got a 55%, in part (my opinion) because my professor thought Trudeau was the worst PM in history, so how could my conclusions possibly be correct? I must have done spotty research.

How can someone be both the best and worst at the same time? Doesn't each side of the argument see how many people are on the other side and think "well.. ok maybe he's not quite as bad/good as I thought?" For one, I no longer think Trudeau was the messiah some treat him as, but I still like a lot of what he did.

So, do the people who hated Trudeau hate him as much as those who hate Harper?

Instead of "who was the best/worst" PM in Canadian history, how about, "Who is the most hated/villified PM in Canadian history?"

Cheers
 
I think, in fairness to your professor, that it is important to state that Pierre Trudeau was, for good or ill, and that's a matter that is still being debated, a very active prime minister who made great and fundamental changes to Canada's foreign/defence, economic, social and Constitutional policies and, through those changes, to Canada itself.

I believe, very firmly, that Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau's social, economic, foreign and Constitutional policies were all wrong, some dangerously wrong. Others, of course, disagree.

One thing about which we can all agree is that he is the most talked and written about prime minister: including Sir John A, Laurier and King.
 
Lumber said:
This is something that I've always been confused about. I grew up hearing about how great a PM Pierre Trudeau was, and I still hear it all the time that "Pierre Trudeau was our greatest PM!" In fact, when the CBC ran "The Greatest Canadian", Pierre Trudeau was ranked the 3rd greatest Canadian in history!

But, as I grew older, started paying attention to politics and attending University, I discovered another cadre of people; those who think he is the worst Prime Minister in history. I know some of you here have said those exact words, "Pierre Trudeau is the worst PM ever." I got my worst grade in my entire time at University by writing a paper in history class whose thesis was basically "Pierre Trudea was the Greatest PM". I got a 55%, in part (my opinion) because my professor thought Trudeau was the worst PM in history, so how could my conclusions possibly be correct? I must have done spotty research.

How can someone be both the best and worst at the same time? Doesn't each side of the argument see how many people are on the other side and think "well.. ok maybe he's not quite as bad/good as I thought?" For one, I no longer think Trudeau was the messiah some treat him as, but I still like a lot of what he did.

So, do the people who hated Trudeau hate him as much as those who hate Harper?

Instead of "who was the best/worst" PM in Canadian history, how about, "Who is the most hated/villified PM in Canadian history?"

Cheers

The CBC Bias and Laurentian elitist mentality has been in effect for decades. You truly have to work at getting a factual viewpoint. Most people have better and more interesting things to spend their time doing.

It is only when you get your arse bit a few times and decades later you have your eyes opened as to who, why and what did the chewing that the ordinary person begins to pay attention.

Unless you are from one of the Laurentian elite old stock families or on the Government's or one of the Big Union teats, Trudeau Liberals are not your cup of tea.
 
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