Dress During Final Release Appt

[FSTO]

Its funny it goes both ways. Having spent all my time up until Sept 2020 in operational dress I always looked at those in 3Bs as out of touch and whos jobs are simply justified by a constant drone of RFI with the header "regret short fuse". Working a staff job now, I feel I was justified in my conception of things, and if the Adm would just give me half an hour I would cull this place like the fruit and veg locker the day before storing ship.

But back to dress, why do people in an office setting need to be in dress pants and a dress shirt ? If its just daily routine and nothing formal is going on they why are they more formally dressed ? Again, formal occasions or press conferences I get it, makes sense to put up the buttons and bows, for daily routine I dont get it.

Because that's the "Operational" clothes of the office?

An aside, but when I joined the fleet in the 90's we officers only wore combats when we actually sailed, and this was during a time when we had to pay for our non-combat clothing.

Another aside, we won a pretty serious war wearing uniforms that was both ceremonial dress and combat dress.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Because that's the "Operational" clothes of the office?

An aside, but when I joined the fleet in the 90's we officers only wore combats when we actually sailed, and this was during a time when we had to pay for our non-combat clothing.

Another aside, we won a pretty serious war wearing uniforms that was both ceremonial dress and combat dress.

So basically because we've always done it that, you liked it that way; and WW2 ?

 

[FSTO]

So basically because we've always done it that, you liked it that way; and WW2 ?

Of course!
I'm a dinosaur and I'll be retiring in 210 days so it really doesn't matter what I think!

Cheers!

 

[Halifax Tar]

Of course!
I'm a dinosaur and I'll be retiring in 210 days so it really doesn't matter what I think!

Cheers!

Thank you for your service and I hope you get the fullest enjoyment out of your retirement, I have no doubt you earned every minute.

 

[lenaitch]

But back to dress, why do people in an office setting need to be in dress pants and a dress shirt ? If its just daily routine and nothing formal is going on they why are they more formally dressed ? Again, formal occasions or press conferences I get it, makes sense to put up the buttons and bows, for daily routine I dont get it.

I can't comment on the military culture or its many environments, but does not every industry/profession have their corporate 'uniform'? Places like IT can generally be pretty casual, but folks toiling away in a Bay St. law firm or something are likely expected to wear a suit and tie. It's part of their image they are wanting to project.

I spent about half of my police career in a headquarters environment, and about half of that in non-designated plain clothes positions. I was quite happy to wear the clothes they paid for, if for no other reason that morning wardrobe decisions were eliminated. In the plains clothes roles, suit and tie was the expected norm and only partially compensated.

 

[mariomike]

Always found them a) uncomfortable and b) looking like a 1940's Toronto bus driver.

The men pictured are all middle-aged, but TTC uniforms were top quality. Made to measure tailor made by Sainthill Levine. You could always tell a new operator because they wore business suits ( with a TTC hat ) while waiting for their uniforms to arrive.

I almost never had occasion to wear my dress uniform, but they were also Sainthill Levine.

I was quite happy to wear the clothes they paid for, if for no other reason that morning wardrobe decisions were eliminated.

I felt the same way, but my street uniform stayed in my locker. Never brought it home. Dark blue shirt, pants, jacket and parka. Got out out just before they switched to a sort of piss yellow / puke green jacket, with florescent stripes on the shirt and parts. "High visability" I believe they called it.

I'm no judge of military fashion, but I thought our 1949 pattern RCASC battledress looked pretty sharp. The creases certainly were.

 

[Ostrozac]

I'm no judge of military fashion, but I thought our 1949 pattern RCASC battledress looked pretty sharp. The creases certainly were.

I’m a firm believer that if the Army had adopted, as Garrison Dress, the old Battle Dress in modern merino wool and polar fleece fabrics that we’d all still be wearing it as dress of the day. That way our expensive combat uniforms could be used for the field, and our unpopular DEU would be used for parliamentary committees and courts martial.

 

[Furniture]

437 bubbas wearing DEU during non VIP missions was a punishment - straight from the mouths of 437 bubbas themselves.

I don’t think I will ever work a job that involves wearing 3Bs daily - I did that for 8 months at the language school as a 2Lt, I don’t plan on working in the NCR or going to a place of higher learning. I’m OK about that - I think the rest of the CAF is OK about that too. I am wearing the same flight suits I got issued in 2004 - how am I wearing out operational gear again?

I agree with Max - we’re not airline pilots, don’t make us dress up as them.

If someone doesn’t recognize what a RCAF flight suit looks like, while posted to a RCAF base, I think they need to spend more time out of their bubble. (IMHO)

Last I checked Ottawa isn't an airbase, and the DND building on Coventry Rd. is nowhere near an airfield. In fact the nearest airfield is 6.5km by road away, and Ottawa international is 13.7km by road from there... It's cute though that you you and SSM have decided to make it personal and go after me though.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Its funny it goes both ways. Having spent all my time up until Sept 2020 in operational dress I always looked at those in 3Bs as out of touch and whos jobs are simply justified by a constant drone of RFI with the header "regret short fuse". Working a staff job now, I feel I was justified in my conception of things, and if the Adm would just give me half an hour I would cull this place like the fruit and veg locker the day before storing ship.

But back to dress, why do people in an office setting need to be in dress pants and a dress shirt ? If its just daily routine and nothing formal is going on they why are they more formally dressed ? Again, formal occasions or press conferences I get it, makes sense to put up the buttons and bows, for daily routine I dont get it.

The NCDs cost about $500 for a matching outfit and there is usually a shortage on the coasts are common sizes. Doubt the DEUs cost more than $100 for the pants/shirt/shoes combo, and no impact on operational supplies.

We don't have anything between DEUs and flame retardant clothing, but 3Bs is basically business casual with some bling, except I don't have to pay for it. And stomping around an office in work boots is just dumb. At least the army and chair force boots are more comfortable.

 

[Weinie]

Maybe this thread should be titled “Duress during final release appt.”

 

[BurmaShave]

Maybe this thread should be titled “Duress during final release appt.”

My vote is: Furniture vs. The Pilots (or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Flight Suit)

I feel like this is kinda my fault, sorry MJP.

 

[BurmaShave]

Last I checked Ottawa isn't an airbase, and the DND building on Coventry Rd. is nowhere near an airfield. In fact the nearest airfield is 6.5km by road away, and Ottawa international is 13.7km by road from there... It's cute though that you you and SSM have decided to make it personal and go after me though.

The decimal distances really drive home your point, although I don't think it's the one you were trying to make. That being said, 412 and AETE are both operational flying units based in Ottawa (and thus employ all manner of 'orrible flight suited jaywalkers).

2) You seem to have a bit of chip on your shoulder, I never suggested people who are expected to be flying/working on aircraft should be in DEU. I suggested that those siting at a desk should be. If the RCN has figured out how to get people from sound asleep, to dressed to fight fires in under six minutes, the RCAF can figure out how to get air crew from DEU into flight suits in a reasonable amount of time, as required.

This seems like it's talking about operational units (which, I imagine, is where Ditch's complaint came from). Perhaps I'm misreading, though.

I hope I haven't been offensive (and you left me out of the personal attacks complaint intentionally, not in oversight). However, the above suggestion and the "flightsuits are less professional because they're difficult to recognize on jaywalkers" anecdote reinforces to me that the "main effort" aircraft, maintainers, and aircrew of the Air Force are a lot further, physically and metaphorically, than a mere six point five kilometres from 285 Coventry Road.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The NCDs cost about $500 for a matching outfit and there is usually a shortage on the coasts are common sizes. Doubt the DEUs cost more than $100 for the pants/shirt/shoes combo, and no impact on operational supplies.

We don't have anything between DEUs and flame retardant clothing, but 3Bs is basically business casual with some bling, except I don't have to pay for it. And stomping around an office in work boots is just dumb. At least the army and chair force boots are more comfortable.

Just ran a quick tally on my own NCDs this morning using CGCS: X2 Jackets, X3 Pants, X3 Shirts = $967.19 (That is the basic SOI)

Using the DRMIS portal and BI we can pull up peoples clothing DOCs and run queries on where our stock sits. The massive amount of operational kit on peoples accounts that is over and above their entitlement is the problem; not people sitting in an office with NCDs vice S&Ps.

Another exacerbating issue is unlike Army Combats we aren't in the good practice of laundering and recycling the NCDs that get returned. Meaning if I turn in a pair of pants that have no defect, lets say they don't fit or I am above my entitlement, these should be laundered and put back into the CFSS. This rarely happens with NCDs. And I dont know why. Go to your local Army Surplus store and look for NCD pants, shits and Jackets. Tons of serviceable kit is sitting there. We have bad material management practices, thats the issue; not work space dress.

Personally I would go the way of the USN. Your first issue is free, after that you have to pay for you kit. Its funny when people pay for things, they tend to take care of them and get as much life out of them as they can.

 

[Pelorus]

Personally paying, assuming that there's a clothing allowing to account for reasonable life-cycling, would be fine if the NCDs were of decent quality.

Paying out of pocket for replacements would quickly add to the current list of things contributing to member dissatisfaction if they had to pay every time the pants tore in the crotch during an unexpected slip on a slippery deck, or the shirt tore from catching in on a protruding object onboard, or even when the collar simply frayed after a comically small number of times through the laundry, etc.

I don't have any experience with the new NCDs, hopefully they aren't as god awful.

 

[Happy Guy]

Interestingly how this post quickly diverged from what to wear on your final day to operational and non-operational (DEU) dress.

I retired in Jul 2021 after 41 years of service and I wore civilians on my last day. For context, I wore the CF Greens when I joined and my first unit SSM was a Korean War vet. I have a very traditional mindset towards uniforms - don't get me going on sloppy dress, berets, and hands in the pockets. I was an NCM before I became an Officer.

Summary:
Agree - many members especially those of us who served in the CA, especially those on Army Bases, consider wearing the DEU as punishment, to be worn for disciplinary events, however I am proud to wear it for Remembrance Day.

I wore civilians for my final day because I was only seeing the civilian Release Clerk at NDHQ. I wore DEU with ribbons for my final farewell with the BGen which mattered.

I am a traditionalist but I am also a realist. The CAF needs to rationalize its operational and non-operational uniform needs and consider both types as essential before any real substantial change can happen. DEUs are important because traditions and ceremony are important to the CAF. The CDS, CCWO, the Environmental Comds, and Comd CWOs are all aware of the DEU deficiencies but, and I agree with the them, operations are the priority and that is where the majority of the limited funding must go. At best, incremental changes to the DEU is what the CAF can do.

Yes - retirement is GREAT!

 

[ballz]

I was wondering where this thread went.... my WO used to be an RMS Clerk and she told at one of her units when people were coming in on their last day, they had to report to the OR as their last stop to be cleared out, be inspected by the DSM, if their DEUs weren't up to standard they were inspected until it was, sent home to fix stuff if necessary, before the OR would clear them out, and then finally allowed to proceed to their final release appointment. It was literally turned into a walk of shame.

So how's that for "depart with dignity" and why DEUs are viewed as a punishment. Nothing like deliberately screwing someone around and treating them like a child right up until they sign the last piece of paper to make them feel "proud" wearing that uniform.

 

[OldSolduer]

I was wondering where this thread went.... my WO used to be an RMS Clerk and she told at one of her units when people were coming in on their last day, they had to report to the OR as their last stop to be cleared out, be inspected by the DSM, if their DEUs weren't up to standard they were inspected until it was, sent home to fix stuff if necessary, before the OR would clear them out, and then finally allowed to proceed to their final release appointment. It was literally turned into a walk of shame.

So how's that for "depart with dignity" and why DEUs are viewed as a punishment. Nothing like deliberately screwing someone around and treating them like a child right up until they sign the last piece of paper to make them feel "proud" wearing that uniform.

Utter bullshit. or should I say "chicken" shit?