Dress During Final Release Appt

[BurmaShave]

DEU needs improvement in the quality control, materials, and cut. That said, it's still more appropriate for sitting at a desk sending emails and filling spreadsheets, than CADPAT, flight suits, or NCDs. I myself dreaded wearing DEU before coming to Ottawa, but quickly realized it was more comfortable than CADPAT when working in an office.

For sure, 3Bs would be much better if they fit. I’m tall and thin. How, in a service of primarily young men (for whom this build is not uncommon), can I not get a short sleeve shirt that fits correctly?

Harkening back to the authority thing, in no way do I project more authority/professionalism/office-appropriate-vibe in a parachute of a short sleeve shirt or a dumpy v-neck sweater than I do in a flight suit. Flight suits fit me, and look a damn sight more professional than some ill-fitting business wear.

 

[Furniture]

Harkening back to the authority thing, in no way do I project more authority/professionalism/office-appropriate-vibe in a parachute of a short sleeve shirt or a dumpy v-neck sweater than I do in a flight suit. Flight suits fit me, and look a damn sight more professional than some ill-fitting business wear.

If that was the ‘notion’ then there are issues with the Aircraft Captain’s understanding of their authorities.

I'm not the Wing Commander, so I can't answer for it beyond what was said in my presence. I get the idea of putting the crew in a different dress than passengers though... the whole uniform thing that airlines, police, firefighters, etc. have used to great effect for a couple of years now.

As to the image.... Flights suits look cool, but to the average person used to seeing airline pilots, DEU is a more professional image. I watched a guy jay walk to Canadian Tire on Coventry Rd today at about noon, and even as a military member it took a second to realize I was seeing someone in a flight suit. It was just green clothes with a weird blue hat, until I looked closer to see what he was wearing. All that to say, flight suits look professional to aircrew, DEU looks professional to average people.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I'm not the Wing Commander, so I can't answer for it beyond what was said in my presence. I get the idea of putting the crew in a different dress than passengers though... the whole uniform thing that airlines, police, firefighters, etc. have used to great effect for a couple of years now.

As to the image.... Flights suits look cool, but to the average person used to seeing airline pilots, DEU is a more professional image. I watched a guy jay walk to Canadian Tire on Coventry Rd today at about noon, and even as a military member it took a second to realize I was seeing someone in a flight suit. It was just green clothes with a weird blue hat, until I looked closer to see what he was wearing. All that to say, flight suits look professional to aircrew, DEU looks professional to average people.

Great but we do not serve "average people." We serve the military. Military pilots, while some may do work that is close to what an airline pilot would do, are not airline pilots.

 

[PuckChaser]

But they want the work conditions and pay of airline pilots right?

 

[SupersonicMax]

But they want the work conditions and pay of airline pilots right?

No, we want market pay. There are jobs outside of airline pilot jobs. Top Aces, helo rigs, corporate, all of which have a different dress code than suit and tie, and bring home often more than an airline pilot.

And no one is asking to work 12 days a month. We just want to stop working 25 days a month, often at 10+ hours a day.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But still not have to pay for the training that allows you to fly.....unlike those other jobs you mention??

 

[SupersonicMax]

But still not have to pay for the training that allows you to fly.....unlike those other jobs you mention??

There are competitive subsidized programs on the civilian street too.

 

[Furniture]

Great but we do not serve "average people." We serve the military. Military pilots, while some may do work that is close to what an airline pilot would do, are not airline pilots.

Specifically we are discussing military pilots serving in the role of civilian airline pilots, as when not carrying PAX they were authorized to wear flight suits.

Also, 437 does serve "average" people, in that civilians routinely fly onboard military aircraft, particularly on "team Canada" trips. On those trips specifically, aircrew not looking anything like the passengers is a bonus, as the civilian passengers can easily identify who is crew and who is just a rider. Edit: So in the case of a problem onboard, the civilian would know exactly who to speak with, rather than being confused by the sea of green/brown.

I raised the point about seeing someone in a flight suit outside a normal circumstance to highlight that even military personnel who are accustomed to seeing flight suits can be momentarily confused when the flight suit is out of it's normal context.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Specifically we are discussing military pilots serving in the role of civilian airline pilots, as when not carrying PAX they were authorized to wear flight suits.

Also, 437 does serve "average" people, in that civilians routinely fly onboard military aircraft, particularly on "team Canada" trips. On those trips specifically, aircrew not looking anything like the passengers is a bonus, as the civilian passengers can easily identify who is crew and who is just a rider. Edit: So in the case of a problem onboard, the civilian would know exactly who to speak with, rather than being confused by the sea of green/brown.

I raised the point about seeing someone in a flight suit outside a normal circumstance to highlight that even military personnel who are accustomed to seeing flight suits can be momentarily confused when the flight suit is out of it's normal context.

Not all civilians are average people. I would argue that those riding for the “team Canada” trips are not. Before the flight, the flight attendants will identify themselves. That should give them a clue as to who they need to talk to.

If a military person has issues recognizing a military uniform from their own service, perhaps that person needs more education. Lobbying for changing that dress is, IMO, no more than ill-founded contempt for people wearing that uniform.

I was part of the relocation of a flying unit from Cold Lake to the NCR recently and you should have seen the battles we had to fight to be allowed to wear the dress we are required to wear for safety reasons. To quote a very senior NCM “aircrew won’t be all special in Ottawa.”

 

[Furniture]

Not all civilians are average people. I would argue that those riding for the “team Canada” trips are not. Before the flight, the flight attendants will identify themselves. That should give them a clue as to who they need to talk to.

If a military person has issues recognizing a military uniform from their own service, perhaps that person needs more education. Lobbying for changing that dress is, IMO, no more than ill-founded contempt for people wearing that uniform.

I was part of the relocation of a flying unit from Cold Lake to the NCR recently and you should have seen the battles we had to fight to be allowed to wear the dress we are required to wear for safety reasons. To quote a very senior NCM “aircrew won’t be all special in Ottawa.”

1) Introductions done a couple of hours ago likely mean little after a couple of drinks, and some some drunk hockey player grabs your ass. Being able to clearly identify the crew from the passengers, who could also be in the same/similar operational order of dress, is a reasonable thing. Most civilians don't know much about out uniforms, or what they mean. My experience with several "team Canada" trips is the civilians on them had no idea what our rank/element was.

2) You seem to have a bit of chip on your shoulder, I never suggested people who are expected to be flying/working on aircraft should be in DEU. I suggested that those siting at a desk should be. If the RCN has figured out how to get people from sound asleep, to dressed to fight fires in under six minutes, the RCAF can figure out how to get air crew from DEU into flight suits in a reasonable amount of time, as required.

I'm also against people wearing CADPAT and NCDs to sit at a desk writing emails, but oddly enough none of them accuse me of "contempt", perhaps the contempt lays with the accuser not the accused.

 

[Good2Golf]

Since the tangent seems to have people seized of the issue, I will expand on my tangential point earlier was that if people think that the 437 Sqn personnel wearing DEU on that Team Canada flight would have made it easier to control the flight, I think that is mistaken. The first order action by flight crew should have been by the flight stewards to stop serving alcohol to those passengers that were conducting themselves inappropriately. Failing that, the aircraft captain should have come back to sort the situation out if the flight crew couldn’t - they have the authority to maintain the safety of the flight vested by the NDA. At any point, any serving member closest to the civilians should have said something, and I am disappointed that the senior member on board, a GO I believe, didn’t say anything to stabilize the decision.

At no point in any of the proceedings in that flight do I think flight crew wearing DEU vice flying suit, would have made one iota of difference.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'm also against people wearing CADPAT and NCDs to sit at a desk writing emails, but oddly enough none of them accuse me of "contempt", perhaps the contempt lays with the accuser not the accused.

I hold you contempt for supporting me having to wear S&Ps every day.

Why should people at a desk doing staff work be uncomfortable, or have to wear dress pants and a tie ? Why do we need to be similar to a civilian sector in our own lines ? We aren't civilians, and we should dress to express that, operationally. Unless a formal situation (mess dinner, parade ect) calls for formal attire.

 

[FSTO]

I hold you contempt for supporting me having to wear S&Ps every day.

Why should people at a desk doing staff work be uncomfortable, or have to wear dress pants and a tie ? Why do we need to be similar to a civilian sector in our own lines ? We aren't civilians, and we should dress to express that, operationally. Unless a formal situation (mess dinner, parade ect) calls for formal attire.

You do have a choice (somewhat) to wear the open collar short sleeve shirt or the long sleeve with a tie. Maybe we could loosen the regs a bit and have a long sleeve shirt open collar option?

For me, NCD's were worn when crossing the brow to go to sea (or to go out to the range) full stop. Others think that sports jersey, backwards ball cap, grey sweat pants and white new balance sneakers are formal attire (sorry GOFO's )

 

[Halifax Tar]

You do have a choice (somewhat) to wear the open collar short sleeve shirt or the long sleeve with a tie. Maybe we could loosen the regs a bit and have a long sleeve shirt open collar option?

For me, NCD's were worn when crossing the brow to go to sea (or to go out to the range) full stop. Others think that sports jersey, backwards ball cap, grey sweat pants and white new balance sneakers are formal attire (sorry GOFO's )

I am not arguing to drop all dress standards and just let the children go wild in their cubicles. Just a simplification of our orders of dress and amount of uniforms. 1 for work (office or operational) and one formal. Keep it simple. Oh and peaked caps on the bridge for officers

 

[FSTO]

I am not arguing to drop all dress standards and just let the children go wild in their cubicles. Just a simplification of our orders of dress and amount of uniforms. 1 for work (office or operational) and one formal. Keep it simple. Oh and peaked caps on the bridge for officers

Love it! Can I have a telescope as well?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Love it! Can I have a telescope as well?

Only if it comes with a monocle.

 

[Furniture]

I hold you contempt for supporting me having to wear S&Ps every day.

Why should people at a desk doing staff work be uncomfortable, or have to wear dress pants and a tie ? Why do we need to be similar to a civilian sector in our own lines ? We aren't civilians, and we should dress to express that, operationally. Unless a formal situation (mess dinner, parade ect) calls for formal attire.

I can live with that.

 

[Zoomie]

437 bubbas wearing DEU during non VIP missions was a punishment - straight from the mouths of 437 bubbas themselves.

I don’t think I will ever work a job that involves wearing 3Bs daily - I did that for 8 months at the language school as a 2Lt, I don’t plan on working in the NCR or going to a place of higher learning. I’m OK about that - I think the rest of the CAF is OK about that too. I am wearing the same flight suits I got issued in 2004 - how am I wearing out operational gear again?

I agree with Max - we’re not airline pilots, don’t make us dress up as them.

If someone doesn’t recognize what a RCAF flight suit looks like, while posted to a RCAF base, I think they need to spend more time out of their bubble. (IMHO)

 

[FSTO]

437 bubbas wearing DEU during non VIP missions was a punishment - straight from the mouths of 437 bubbas themselves.

I don’t think I will ever work a job that involves wearing 3Bs daily - I did that for 8 months at the language school as a 2Lt, I don’t plan on working in the NCR or going to a place of higher learning. I’m OK about that - I think the rest of the CAF is OK about that too. I am wearing the same flight suits I got issued in 2004 - how am I wearing out operational gear again?

I agree with Max - we’re not airline pilots, don’t make us dress up as them.

If someone doesn’t recognize what a RCAF flight suit looks like, while posted to a RCAF base, I think they need to spend more time out of their bubble. (IMHO)

Fair enough, I just find it hilarious that Light Col walking about the NCR wearing a flight suit who hasn't seen the inside of an aircraft for years is a little silly. I feel the same about Army and Navy folks wearing their combats in the office as well.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Fair enough, I just find it hilarious that Light Col walking about the NCR wearing a flight suit who hasn't seen the inside of an aircraft for years is a little silly. I feel the same about Army and Navy folks wearing their combats in the office as well.

Its funny it goes both ways. Having spent all my time up until Sept 2020 in operational dress I always looked at those in 3Bs as out of touch and whos jobs are simply justified by a constant drone of RFI with the header "regret short fuse". Working a staff job now, I feel I was justified in my conception of things, and if the Adm would just give me half an hour I would cull this place like the fruit and veg locker the day before storing ship.

But back to dress, why do people in an office setting need to be in dress pants and a dress shirt ? If its just daily routine and nothing formal is going on they why are they more formally dressed ? Again, formal occasions or press conferences I get it, makes sense to put up the buttons and bows, for daily routine I dont get it.