M Feetham said:
I've read all the posts adn have to agree, emotions are running very high on this one. My two cents worth is that if you vlunteer to serve, whatever country your are from, part of the requirment of service is to no longer have political alliances. You also pretty much agree not to have any type of political or social opinion. Service requires that even if you don't agree with the decisions of your superiors/government, you still obey the orders that are passed down the COC. The only time you have the right to refuse is when those orders are unlawfull.
I don't have a reference for this, it's off the top of my head and therefore could be suspect. I seem to recall a German general speaking after the end of WW2 and he commented on how the German military allowed things to happen as they did. He was of the opinion that the German military was an organization that prided itself on its professionalism and they did not see the value of being involved in politics. He later changed his opinion about that and mused aloud that maybe they should have taken an interest in politics in the 1930's.
I'm going to see if I can't validate this with a reference. For now, it's just what I recall as I said.
Signalman150 said:
For Enzo -- reference message number 39
Just to clarify. I've been to Alcatraz a couple of times, (as a visitor mind you: I'm neither that old or that larcenous). Alcatraz was originally a MILITARY PRISON, not civilian. Indeed it was built by servicemen who were prisoners, sort like like building your own gallows
Your message seemed to suggest that you thought the draft dodgers/contientious objectors were being held in solitary inside a civilian prision. Such was not the case. Sorry just being pedantic.
No worries. I clearly said:
When the island was a military prison from 1850-1933, it housed many conscientious objectors during WW1.
Taken from the following website:
Later it was a disciplinary barracks for military prisoners, a prison for recalcitrant Indians, and then a P.O. W. facility for Spanish American Philippines Islands prisoners and World War 1 conscientious objectors.
http://www.militarymuseum.org/Alcatraz.html
While there, the basement was closed, but we were having a discussion with a park warden who was more than happy to oblige my dark side. It seems that there was a section of the basement with 3 cells that were literally 100% dark, very cold, etc. This was used for a long time, well past the point where the prison
reformed of course. These were referred to as the dungeons. Upon my return home, a program on the History channel aired entitled:
The Dungeons of Alcatraz and it built upon what was learned onsite. There was an objector (name forgotten) who was housed in the prison along with ~100 others during WW1, he was there from 1919-1921(22?) and as he did not cooperate with the guards at first, he ended up spending a fair amount of time down there (his prison # was found etched into a wall along with many others) although the warden (a man well known for his views on reform) was not supposed to be using the facility as such, etc. As a side note, this man
DID cooperate after that and was released in the early 20s without further conflict with the authorities.
Alcatraz was intended to be the prison to house the worst of the worst and I've no problem with that, a place where you couldn't escape and hope went with it. I'm just surprised that the objectors were sent there, seems a bit much to have people who espouse nonviolence and peace to be incarcerated with men who were killers, rapists, etc. Then again, I notice from the above that political prisoners (POWs, recalcitrant Indians, etc.) seemed to be in vogue for awhile and that maybe the message of
abandon all hope ye was intended to act as a warning to dissuade those who may consider following in that path; for those whose views differed from the state was intentional.
