Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[WLSC]

If the individual does not self identify and report the quals, there is nothing the CAF can do.

I know multiple veh techs who had the majority of their training PLAR'd. That is the systemic method used to assess non military training.

Indeed I know one person who first visited the RCEME school as a Sgt on their WO course.

I understand all the PLAR process. I'm far from saying it should not be use. What I'm saying is that right now, it's the opposite of what it could be.

Let's say a mechanics (as an exemple) comes in. He has to tell the FAC what he knows. Up to that point I'm good with that. Where I think we are really bad is when that futur member have to do the PLAR for is civilian qual to be granted. In a good year it take what, 9 to 12 months? It should be already approved. You have that qual = that trade. It doenst mean that member does have to do RCEME school, but maybe to have a delta program. It could be one either thru school or in OJT in a SVC Bn.

I'm not suggesting at all to scrap what we have because there is a real gap between the civilian knowlwdge and our need but they are technical. We need to make all that process more adaptable for the members who want to joint.

Why can more trade are not red sealed with tech colleges. I understand that it's hard to do because it involve all the provincial education systems.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I really can't understand why CSS should be hard for reservists, and, if I'm reading you right its the system itself that does that.

I can't think of anything easier to form and run than a PRes transport company. It's one of those things which we need only in a limited way as a full-time resource in peacetime but you'll simply never have too many of on operations. We could form independent transport companies that could be located anywhere in the country and slotted in pretty much at any echelon level on deployment.

Supply is the same. Additional people, trained in running the supply system shouldn't be hard to train and sustain as reservists in even the most austere armouries in peacetime to bulk out the system in a crisis.

Maintenance is a challenge but training reserve maintainers and keeping up their military skills is doable.

Where the system falls down is expecting part-time truckers, sup techs and especially maint techs to actually do the job part-time during peacetime. It can't be done. Delivery of CSS services in peacetime, regardless of whether to a RegF organization or a ResF one is a job for full-timers and not part-timers. CSS reservists, OTOH, are invaluable in an operational surge roll and should be organized and trained for that.

I'm not sure what role a ResF Svc Bn has under our current construct. To provide CSS for a non deployable, non operational CBG? Surely not! That only leaves an administrative aggregation role of CSS elements in a given geographic region. I expect that ResF Svc Bn headquarters are as efficient in learning and practicing their operational jobs as ResF armoured, artillery regiments and infantry battalion headquarters are at theirs - in other words not at all. So I do not see a ResF Svc Bn with any realistic role in preparing a bn headquarters and its elements for mobilization as a bn any more than we expect the QOR to mobilize an infantry battalion headquarters and companies under the current construct.

We literally have a division's worth of reservists. The fact that they are hard pressed to do a company level exercise much less a battalion one is a scandal over which heads should have been rolling continuously over the last half century.

That's a lot to unpack so I'm gonna stick my lane, Supply.

The issue for my trade is the system and organization. Right now in my CBG I have 2 MMTs working as RQs and 1 working as a CQ.

The vast majority are not Supply folk (Inf, Arty, ect). The system we use for Supply now is very restrictive on who gets access and without coursing and credentials you won't get access. Add to that it's a terribly complicated system, it's 2023 it doesn't have to be that way.

So almost all of my units rely on SSOs to complete their supply work, outside of form filling, counting and physical movement of material.

In my CBG I have three SSOs supporting my units. One is Navy, one is RCAF and one is Army. Each service has their own spin on things and geo locations for my units.

To sum up, it's herding cats. What we need is a big Army footprint to take up that SSO role and streamline it all. We also need our RQ jobs filled by MMTs this way my units can be more independent in their supply functions.

We had about 5 or 6 ARes troops who were part of our (Inf unit) Admin Company who did a great job of driving, we even had one driver trainer, and keeping the vehicles up to scratch. The problem was that these were not positions we were formally allowed to fill, but we had people who wanted to do the job - and we had a need - so 'boom'.

We regularly interacted with the local Svc Bn for various vehicle related things, including driver courses etc.

If Reserve units, outside of Svc Bns, had hard positions for MSE Ops etc we'd all be alot further ahead IMHO.

Yes please.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Res Armed Recce units are full of qualified drivers. D & M (driving and maint) is part of the QL3/DP/whatever the RQ is called for Armd Soldier/NCM, and more Snr drivers have things like Troop Carrying quals on green fleet veh.

Judging by the waistlines, not surprised (Joking! Joking! )

 

[dapaterson]

I understand all the PLAR process. I'm far from saying it should not be use. What I'm saying is that right now, it's the opposite of what it could be.

Let's say a mechanics (as an exemple) comes in. He has to tell the FAC what he knows. Up to that point I'm good with that. Where I think we are really bad is when that futur member have to do the PLAR for is civilian qual to be granted. In a good year it take what, 9 to 12 months? It should be already approved. You have that qual = that trade. It doenst mean that member does have to do RCEME school, but maybe to have a delta program. It could be one either thru school or in OJT in a SVC Bn.

I'm not suggesting at all to scrap what we have because there is a real gap between the civilian knowlwdge and our need but they are technical. We need to make all that process more adaptable for the members who want to joint.

Why can more trade are not red sealed with tech colleges. I understand that it's hard to do because it involve all the provincial education systems.

Agree that the PLAR timelines need to be compressed.

But self declaration in and of itself is meaningless. Taking a two hour dive famil at a resort in Mexico does not qualify someone as a diver (reductio ad absurdum, I know).

There has to be validation of the declaration, validation of the qualification. And with hundreds of institutions delivering training that regularly changes, that is a challenge.

Red Seal is an excellent first step and should more or less automate parts of the PLAR process.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Red Seal is an excellent first step and should more or less automate parts of the PLAR process.

Like for 'leadership competencies'?

 

[childs56]

That's a lot to unpack so I'm gonna stick my lane, Supply.

The issue for my trade is the system and organization. Right now in my CBG I have 2 MMTs working as RQs and 1 working as a CQ.

The vast majority are not Supply folk (Inf, Arty, ect). The system we use for Supply now is very restrictive on who gets access and without coursing and credentials you won't get access. Add to that it's a terribly complicated system, it's 2023 it doesn't have to be that way.

So almost all of my units rely on SSOs to complete their supply work, outside of form filling, counting and physical movement of material.

In my CBG I have three SSOs supporting my units. One is Navy, one is RCAF and one is Army. Each service has their own spin on things and geo locations for my units.

To sum up, it's herding cats. What we need is a big Army footprint to take up that SSO role and streamline it all. We also need our RQ jobs filled by MMTs this way my units can be more independent in their supply functions.



Yes please.

If a person came from Civie side as a parts supply Journeyman how could or would they fit into the Military Supply system? Would they be beneficial in the current system or is it to specific to be cross over?

 

[dapaterson]

Supply has multiple roles, so where civilian skillsets fit in would depend on the role. R&D? LPO? Coming in as a SAP guru?

 

[childs56]

Supply has multiple roles, so where civilian skillsets fit in would depend on the role. R&D? LPO? Coming in as a SAP guru?

I know few Civilians who perform all those duties for large Companies/ Organizations. When they looked at the Military were told they would start from the beginning. A Master Parts person Civie side are usually worth their weight in gold.
It really is funny how the Military deems their skill set so specialized in many day to day functions and pass on well trained well fitting potential members.

 

[WLSC]

I know few Civilians who perform all those duties for large Companies/ Organizations. When they looked at the Military were told they would start from the beginning. A Master Parts person Civie side are usually worth their weight in gold.
It really is funny how the Military deems their skill set so specialized in many day to day functions and pass on well trained well fitting potential members.

The military part is and need to be kept. All they need is a ''delta'' qual.

 

[WLSC]

Agree that the PLAR timelines need to be compressed.

But self declaration in and of itself is meaningless. Taking a two hour dive famil at a resort in Mexico does not qualify someone as a diver (reductio ad absurdum, I know).

There has to be validation of the declaration, validation of the qualification. And with hundreds of institutions delivering training that regularly changes, that is a challenge.

Red Seal is an excellent first step and should more or less automate parts of the PLAR process.

It need to be done wih all the provincial education system. I knoe it a enourmous job but hey, tat why HQ and trade shop are all about, finding innovative, efficient and effective way to nove forward, no ?

 

[Halifax Tar]

If a person came from Civie side as a parts supply Journeyman how could or would they fit into the Military Supply system? Would they be beneficial in the current system or is it to specific to be cross over?

It depends, Supply is actually a few trades and specialties rolled up into one. Its a beast of trade, and has variations depending on the environment you're in. And that's all before your throw the military aspect in.

I'm sure they could fit into the basic warehousing role or SPSS just fine.

I know few Civilians who perform all those duties for large Companies/ Organizations. When they looked at the Military were told they would start from the beginning. A Master Parts person Civie side are usually worth their weight in gold.
It really is funny how the Military deems their skill set so specialized in many day to day functions and pass on well trained well fitting potential members.

Which is funny, because civi world is picking us off in herds because of our SAP ability and training.

 

[Blackadder1916]

As far that I know, only cooks and postal is red sealed. I never had an answers by any senior maintainers why the same was not done for most CSS trades that have a civilian conterparts. I always had that knee jeck reaction of ''what will happen to our shcools, what will we do if we have to mobilised, etc.'' Great white tower mindset.

It should by systemized, not put on the members to PLAR their background.

Ah, no.

Civilian Credentials for Military Trades / Red Seal

<p>Red Seal</p>

www.red-seal.ca

Have you earned your QL5 in the Canadian Forces in one of the following military trades?

• Construction Technician
• Cook
• Electrical Distribution Technician
• Marine Electrician
• Marine Engineering Technician
• Material Technician
• Plumbing and Heating Technician
• Refrigeration and Mechanical Technician
• Vehicle Technician

Take advantage of the opportunity to achieve a civilian credential with a Red Seal. The Red Seal Program and the Canadian Forces have identified select civilian and military trades that are very similar. Provincial and territorial certifying authorities can recognize the skills you have acquired and applied in the Forces for advanced standing towards civilian certification.

And all the Red Seal trades

Red Seal Trades

But as trade credentials are a provincial responsibility (and there being some differences between provinces) one would have to see what the rules say in a particular province, e.g. Alberta;

Tradesecrets - Canadian Forces Credentials

Alberta's Apprenticeship and Industry Training System is an industry-driven partnership with government that ensures a highly skilled, internationally competitive workforce.

tradesecrets.alberta.ca

 

[childs56]

It depends, Supply is actually a few trades and specialties rolled up into one. Its a beast of trade, and has variations depending on the environment you're in. And that's all before your throw the military aspect in.

I'm sure they could fit into the basic warehousing role or SPSS just fine.



Which is funny, because civi world is picking us off in herds because of our SAP ability and training.

a fully trained Parts/ Supply person is in high demand. I had never even heard of the trade until a friend mentioned she was a master parts technician.

 

[WLSC]

Ah, no.

Civilian Credentials for Military Trades / Red Seal

<p>Red Seal</p>

www.red-seal.ca

And all the Red Seal trades

Red Seal Trades

But as trade credentials are a provincial responsibility (and there being some differences between provinces) one would have to see what the rules say in a particular province, e.g. Alberta;

Tradesecrets - Canadian Forces Credentials

Alberta's Apprenticeship and Industry Training System is an industry-driven partnership with government that ensures a highly skilled, internationally competitive workforce.

tradesecrets.alberta.ca

View attachment 76711

Good, I stand corrected that's a very good start. For the Red Seal, not a lot for CSS except Vehicle tech?

Next my questions would be do we still have that enormous back log for Veh Tech and other CSS trades traninng needed in a SVC Bn?

 

[Halifax Tar]

a fully trained Parts/ Supply person is in high demand. I had never even heard of the trade until a friend mentioned she was a master parts technician.

I've seen it before. I never read that much into it, perhaps I should.

Supply in the military is a mix warehousing, ordering/issuing/receipting, hazmat packaging and shipping, general packaging and shipping, accounts management, purchasing (goods), contracting (services) and then you get into specialties; for example on ships we also look after much of the CBRN organization and we order and receipt all the food and sell it to the galley once to twice a day and we run the ships laundry; as well as all of the previous Supply stuff for the ship. And its a probability we will be taking over the canteen, which is essentially running a small corner store. Not mention all the sailor stuff we do.

In RCN 1.0 my trade was actually two. Naval Storesman and Victualling Storesman. Naval Storesman looked after all the regular supply side of the house, and Victualling Storesman looked after food, laundry and Canteen (NPF), the Stewards took this over when the Victualling trade was done away with. Both did sailor stuff. And the merged into one at the CPO level.

We also used to have parachute packing as part of the trade but they recently split off. Which is probably a mistake for them.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I've seen it before. I never read that much into it, perhaps I should.

Supply in the military is a mix warehousing, ordering/issuing/receipting, hazmat packaging and shipping, general packaging and shipping, accounts management, purchasing (goods), contracting (services) and then you get into specialties; for example on ships we also look after much of the CBRN organization and we order and receipt all the food and sell it to the galley once to twice a day and we run the ships laundry; as well as all of the previous Supply stuff for the ship. And its a probability we will be taking over the canteen, which is essentially running a small corner store. Not mention all the sailor stuff we do.

In RCN 1.0 my trade was actually two. Naval Storesman and Victualling Storesman. Naval Storesman looked after all the regular supply side of the house, and Victualling Storesman looked after food, laundry and Canteen (NPF), the Stewards took this over when the Victualling trade was done away with. Both did sailor stuff. And the merged into one at the CPO level.

We also used to have parachute packing as part of the trade but they recently split off. Which is probably a mistake for them.

Parts Technician

 

[MJP]

I've seen it before. I never read that much into it, perhaps I should.

Supply in the military is a mix warehousing, ordering/issuing/receipting, hazmat packaging and shipping, general packaging and shipping, accounts management, purchasing (goods), contracting (services)

I have long been the belief that you could largely break/split the trade down into those that do purchasing and those that do material management. The depth and breath we expect folks to be competent with inside the MMT world always makes me laugh. Add in the silliness of posting ppl between elements and expecting them to become great at a different element and you have a perfect storm of folks that are never good at anything and always learning.

We also used to have parachute packing as part of the trade but they recently split off. Which is probably a mistake for them.

Nah, good riddance. It was a useless fringe specialty that ate folks. I employed non-MMTs as parachute packers without issue. MMTs still manage their fairly simple warehouse doing what MMTs should be doing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I have long been the belief that you could largely break/split the trade down into those that do purchasing and those that do material management. The depth and breath we expect folks to be competent with inside the MMT world always makes me laugh. Add in the silliness of posting ppl between elements and expecting them to become great at a different element and you have a perfect storm of folks that are never good at anything and always learning.

Nah, good riddance. It was a useless fringe specialty that ate folks. I employed non-MMTs as parachute packers without issue. MMTs still manage their fairly simple warehouse doing what MMTs should be doing.

I was thinking more about the riggers. They don't have much chance for any deployments or progression now.

Them leaving Supply really has no effect on the trade.

But you're right, MMT is so big it's almost unwieldy.

 

[MJP]

I was thinking more about the riggers. They don't have much chance for any deployments or progression now.

Them leaving Supply really has no effect on the trade.

But you're right, MMT is so big it's almost unwieldy.

I don't want to derail but I was talking about riggers as well. Career progression for them even when they were MMTs was always iffy anyway. Known a few that get up there but once they hit WO their options became limited and often it means coming back to the MMT world where they were of marginal value due to lack of actual MMT skills, although most of them had decent management type skills due to their employment locations compared to their peers.

Regardless, if we wanted to be professionals and get gooder we could trade split MMTs Purchasing & Material Management and allow folks to get good at one broad world not every planet in the solar system

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't want to derail but I was talking about riggers as well. Career progression for them even when they were MMTs was always iffy anyway. Known a few that get up there but once they hit WO their options became limited and often it means coming back to the MMT world where they were of marginal value due to lack of actual MMT skills, although most of them had decent management type skills due to their employment locations compared to their peers.

Regardless, if we wanted to be professionals and get gooder we could trade split MMTs Purchasing & Material Management and allow folks to get good at one broad world not every planet in the solar system

Derails are our specialty

Riggers, at least they had billets to fill. They are really stovepiped now in a very very small trade with almost no movement. I think they are around 150 members.

What about using some existing examples where from Pre to Sgt you specialize in MMT or Purchasing and then from WO to MWO you are the manager. With some cross over trg ?

The CSE trades do this now.