Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[RangerRay]

There is a definite unequal availability of ceremonial dress and patrols in the CAF. I think it depends on if units have wealthy benefactors or not.

Other than optional navy whites, do the Commonwealth navies and air forces have an equivalent to full ceremonial like scarlets or patrols?

 

[Kirkhill]

Good morning all. I see the cat's well among the pigeons.

It was good to see the Canadian representation. But generally you are seeing this from the point of view of the Canadian soldier. That wasn't the point of view of the international community. They recognized the Mounties. They recognized the Kiwis and Aussies, the Aussies in particular. Thsy generally didn't comment on the Canadian contingent. I suspect because they didn't see it as a contingent. The leading effort was the Commonwealth. I further suspect that the assumption was that there was a large ANZAC contingent and a collection of other Commonwealth contingents. The commentators I was watching, British ones, didn't mention them at all. As I said, they did note the Mounties and the ANZACs.

By not parading in DEUS you missed an opportunity to sell Canada, and the Canadian Army, to billions of people. Including your own country. Especially new Canadians, many of whom come from the Commonwealth.

Once I figured out what I was looking at I could start picking out individual regiments and eventually concluded that all of the non-Anzacs, the other half of the Commonwealth element following the RCMP, were all Canadians. But even I had difficulty finding the Calgary Highlanders and distinguishing them from the ASHoC and the other Highlanders. In all honesty realization dawned when I saw a trooper in DEUs and realized he was wearing a KOCR badge. The shame of it. Recognizing the KOCR before I found my own Highlander.

One other thought. Our esteemed leader, in expressing the nations condolences, at pains to reflect that he was speaking for most Canadians. Not ALL Canadians but most Canadians. This is a true statement but made politically necessary by a Quebec that declined to honour Her Majesty's passing in the manner of other provinces. Their right and no complaint.

But by having a contingent dressed in Ceremonials you looked more British than Canadian. You effectively hid the Canadians in plain sight. And this with a government and a nation that are ambivalent towards the monarchy, the Brits and the Army.

Now that the Captains and Kings , in Kipling’s words, have departed, we can look back at yesterday’s state funeral as a remarkable example of the late Queen as an international pole of attraction. 100 heads of state and government, a multitude of other international dignitaries, a global TV audience of over 4 billion, about half the planet: as an event it dwarfs the meeting of heads of state and government who traditionally flock to New York for the annual meeting of the UN General Assembly this week. Indeed many leaders curtailed their visit to New York to ensure they were present at yesterday’s state funeral.

And if the proceedings had very much a military feel, rightly given the late Queen’s connections with the armed forces and her close family having seen active service, it was soft power which brought and fixed the world’s attention to Westminster. Soft power, sometimes called the second face of power, comes in many forms. An ability to ensure that others admire your cultural values and foreign policies, an ability to coopt not coerce, to appeal and attract are all marks of an advanced liberal democracy in stark counterpoint to the likes of Russia, China, Iran and many others.

Queen Elizabeth's funeral was the greatest diplomatic triumph in modern history

Our late monarch's soft power was without equal. It now falls upon King Charles to replicate it

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Mike5]

Good morning all. I see the cat's well among the pigeons.

It was good to see the Canadian representation. But generally you are seeing this from the point of view of the Canadian soldier. That wasn't the point of view of the international community. They recognized the Mounties. They recognized the Kiwis and Aussies, the Aussies in particular. Thsy generally didn't comment on the Canadian contingent. I suspect because they didn't see it as a contingent. The leading effort was the Commonwealth. I further suspect that the assumption was that there was a large ANZAC contingent and a collection of other Commonwealth contingents. The commentators I was watching, British ones, didn't mention them at all. As I said, they did note the Mounties and the ANZACs.

By not parading in DEUS you missed an opportunity to sell Canada, and the Canadian Army, to billions of people. Including your own country. Especially new Canadians, many of whom come from the Commonwealth.

Once I figured out what I was looking at I could start picking out individual regiments and eventually concluded that all of the non-Anzacs, the other half of the Commonwealth element following the RCMP, were all Canadians. But even I had difficulty finding the Calgary Highlanders and distinguishing them from the ASHoC and the other Highlanders. In all honesty realization dawned when I saw a trooper in DEUs and realized he was wearing a KOCR badge. The shame of it. Recognizing the KOCR before I found my own Highlander.

One other thought. Our esteemed leader, in expressing the nations condolences, at pains to reflect that he was speaking for most Canadians. Not ALL Canadians but most Canadians. This is a true statement but made politically necessary by a Quebec that declined to honour Her Majesty's passing in the manner of other provinces. Their right and no complaint.

But by having a contingent dressed in Ceremonials you looked more British than Canadian. You effectively hid the Canadians in plain sight. And this with a government and a nation that are ambivalent towards the monarchy, the Brits and the Army.

Queen Elizabeth's funeral was the greatest diplomatic triumph in modern history

Our late monarch's soft power was without equal. It now falls upon King Charles to replicate it

www.telegraph.co.uk

I agree with all sentiments except one: "... a contingent dressed in Ceremonials ... looked more British than Canadian." The kilts and scarlets are Canadian, part of our heritage and a link to one of our founding nations. We just have to promote it more consistently.

 

[McG]

By not parading in DEUS you missed an opportunity to sell Canada, and the Canadian Army, to billions of people. Including your own country. Especially new Canadians, many of whom come from the Commonwealth.

I buy this argument, but it's not a critique of the PRes system (and it overlooks that the Reg F was as much a contributor to the ambiguity). Perhaps you intended to have the conversation here: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

 

[Kirkhill]

I buy this argument, but it's not a critique of the PRes system (and it overlooks that the Reg F was as much a contributor to the ambiguity). Perhaps you intended to have the conversation here: "Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation

I would accept reallocation of the discussion to another thread. The one thread I didn't want it to appear in was the one on Her Majesty's funeral.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think Kirkhill’s point was that while the Kiwis and Aussies were all in their equivalent to DEU, we were a mix of DEU, patrols, and full ceremonial, so we kinda looked like a dog’s breakfast we act as a military on a daily basis.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Good morning all. I see the cat's well among the pigeons.

It was good to see the Canadian representation. But generally you are seeing this from the point of view of the Canadian soldier. That wasn't the point of view of the international community. They recognized the Mounties. They recognized the Kiwis and Aussies, the Aussies in particular. Thsy generally didn't comment on the Canadian contingent. I suspect because they didn't see it as a contingent. The leading effort was the Commonwealth. I further suspect that the assumption was that there was a large ANZAC contingent and a collection of other Commonwealth contingents. The commentators I was watching, British ones, didn't mention them at all. As I said, they did note the Mounties and the ANZACs.
. . .

Seen.

At the risk of reinforcing the notion that I'm an out of date old-fart, besides the multiple orders of dress (No. 1, 1B, 1C) worn by the Canadian contingent, what I noticed the most (and continues to irritate me) is the "unshaven". I have nothing against facial hair; various combinations have adorned my features for most of the past half century (I had to completely shave when I went through Cornwallis). And I can understand trying to be "fashionable", but if one is growing a beard . . . grow a fecking beard, don't sport the hipster stubble look, especially for such an important and public event. And if you're going to look like Santa Claus, maybe not the best choice of look as a junior officer.

 

[Kirkhill]

I agree with all sentiments except one: "... a contingent dressed in Ceremonials ... looked more British than Canadian." The kilts and scarlets are Canadian, part of our heritage and a link to one of our founding nations. We just have to promote it more consistently.

I'll accept that critique as well. Our heritage is British and we are rightfully not shy about it. It has seen the RCR, PPCLI, Van Doos, RRCA, and RCAF, to my knowledge been granted the privilege of standing guard at Buckingham Palace. And those units stood guard in their Regimentals.

There is a time and place though. And I think there needs to be consideration given to those times when it is appropriate to present a uniform appearance. Even if it means putting Highlanders in breeks and common head dress.

 

[Remius]

I'll accept that critique as well. Our heritage is British and we are rightfully not shy about it. It has seen the RCR, PPCLI, Van Doos, RRCA, and RCAF, to my knowledge been granted the privilege of standing guard at Buckingham Palace. And those units stood guard in their Regimentals.

There is a time and place though. And I think there needs to be consideration given to those times when it is appropriate to present a uniform appearance. Even if it means putting Highlanders in breeks and common head dress.

And what if this time was the host nation’s request? It’s quite likely they set the dress for this.

 

[Kirkhill]

And what if this time was the host nation’s request? It’s quite likely they set the dress for this.

If, then. I will stand to be corrected if that were the case. But I would still note the contrast to the ANZACs.

 

[Mike5]

Hopefully our collective participation served to remind those watching of the strong bonds between the British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand militaries. A good message at times like this...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hopefully our collective participation served to remind those watching of the strong bonds between the British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand militaries. A good message at times like this...

FWIW I had several buddies contact me by email, to ask about the Canadian regiments represented, from around the world as a result of seeing the troops interviewed on TV.

They were clearly impressed!

 

[Remius]

If, then. I will stand to be corrected if that were the case. But I would still note the contrast to the ANZACs.

Do we know what units from the ANZACS were there and if they have distinctive ceremonial dress?

https://www.army.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-03/Army%20Dress%20Manual_0.pdf

This is their dress manual. Seems fairly standard and even have a few Scottish orders of dress. Thee is a chapter on ceremonial parade dress and looks like that is what they were wearing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Do we know what units from the ANZACS were there and if they have distinctive ceremonial dress?

https://www.army.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-03/Army%20Dress%20Manual_0.pdf

This is their dress manual. Seems fairly standard and even have a few Scottish orders of dress. Thee is a chapter on ceremonial parade dress and looks like that is what they were wearing.

'Blues' was the No. 1 dress standard at one point in time, I think. That was a pretty good look all round in terms of both formality and uniformity.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Not sure how worked up anyone should get about this. I suppose if a mixed contingent couldn't be distinguished from the Legion of Frontiersmen, we'd have to admit there's a problem.

 

[RangerRay]

Do we know what units from the ANZACS were there and if they have distinctive ceremonial dress?

https://www.army.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-03/Army%20Dress%20Manual_0.pdf

This is their dress manual. Seems fairly standard and even have a few Scottish orders of dress. Thee is a chapter on ceremonial parade dress and looks like that is what they were wearing.

I see in that manual that forage caps are to be worn with patrols, not slouch hats. I can see why the decision was made for Aussies, and presumably Kiwis, to go with ceremonial service dress since patrols would be too similar to British patrols.

It looks like the Canadians were told “Wear your best uniform with medals. And officers, bring swords”.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Do we know what units from the ANZACS were there and if they have distinctive ceremonial dress?

https://www.army.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-03/Army%20Dress%20Manual_0.pdf

This is their dress manual. Seems fairly standard and even have a few Scottish orders of dress. Thee is a chapter on ceremonial parade dress and looks like that is what they were wearing.

Here's whom they sent.

Australia

https://news.defence.gov.au/international/emotional-farewell-queen

The Australian contingent represented each of the services, coming from Australia’s Federation Guard and the special relationship organisations, where the Queen had held Honorary military appointments.

The Queen served as:

• Colonel-in-Chief of:
  • Royal Australian Engineers
  • Royal Australian Infantry Corps
  • Royal Australian Army Ordnance Corps
  • Royal Australian Army Nursing Corps
• Captain-General of the Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery
• Air Commodore-in-Chief of the Royal Australian Air Force – Reserve

New Zealand

NZDF contingent to depart for UK to take part in official mourning events

A contingent from the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) is set to embark on travel to the United Kingdom this week to pay tribute to the life of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.

www.nzdf.mil.nz

Some of the personnel selected to attend are drawn from the units and are reflective of the military appointments that were held by the Queen which include:

• Captain-General of the Royal Regiment of New Zealand Artillery (1953);
• Captain-General of the Royal New Zealand Armoured Corps (1953);
• Colonel-in-Chief of the Corps of Royal New Zealand Engineers (1953);
• Colonel-in-Chief of the Royal New Zealand Infantry Regiment (1964); and
• Air-Commodore-in-Chief of the Territorial Air Force of New Zealand (1954)

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's whom they sent.

Australia

https://news.defence.gov.au/international/emotional-farewell-queen

View attachment 73669

New Zealand

NZDF contingent to depart for UK to take part in official mourning events

A contingent from the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) is set to embark on travel to the United Kingdom this week to pay tribute to the life of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.

www.nzdf.mil.nz

View attachment 73670

I detect a sense of commonality....

The Queen served as - Colonel in Chief of - the Royal Australian Infantry Corps
The Queen served as - Colonel in Chief of - the Royal New Zealand Infantry Regiment
The Queen served as - Colonel in Chief of - the Royal New Zealand Armoured Corps

Is there something we could pick up on from there?

 

[Blackadder1916]

I detect a sense of commonality uniformity....

FTFY

 

[Remius]

I detect a sense of commonality....

The Queen served as - Colonel in Chief of - the Royal Australian Infantry Corps
The Queen served as - Colonel in Chief of - the Royal New Zealand Infantry Regiment
The Queen served as - Colonel in Chief of - the Royal New Zealand Armoured Corps

Is there something we could pick up on from there?

So we want to copy the ANZACS instead of the Brits? Why?

She was the colonel in chief of all those Canadian Units as well. That’s the commonality.