Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[Blackadder1916]

I think this issue has been discussed (and badly argued by people like me) elsewhere too. Can anyone help with a link?

Then we can get back to the Covid thing....

Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves  all 143 pages and counting

 

[X Royal]

If people can't get away from their regular job, they shouldn't join.

As long as the government doesn't legally require time off for training this will continue to occur.

They should have it set up so you go from Basic to your trade course with a short period of rest in between.

Obviously you have no clue on how the reserves actually work.
Many joining the Reserves start when they are students.

 

[stellarpanther]

As long as the government doesn't legally require time off for training this will continue to occur.Obviously you have no clue on how the reserves actually work.
Many joining the Reserves start when they are students.

I know how they don't work and that's the problem I'm trying to point out.  I joined the Reserves in 1988 and did my Basic from Jan-Jun.  In July, when it was still a base we went to London and did part of our training and then went to Meaford for the other part.  We came home at the end of the summer and by July did the equivalent of what is now QL5.  While some courses may be the same as Reg F, not all of them are.  HRA/FSA courses are shorter, MP courses are not the same as what the Ref F does.

 

[stellarpanther]

And what about all the reservists who are first responders or health care workers? They could normally get time off for training or for deployment, but are unavailable now because they are more needed where they are.

This problem has been going on longer the last few weeks.  Why stay in if you can't parade or train or make any kind of commitment?  During a conversation I had with the CWO of a unit last summer, he told me that a lot of people view it as a social club and come when they feel like it.

 

[X Royal]

  I joined the Reserves in 1988 and did my Basic from Jan-Jun.

Where did you do your basic course?

 

[blacktriangle]

Someone said it earlier and I agree...let's actually call up the PRes (not voluntary) and see what happens. We will either be pleasantly surprised or it will be an epic fail and we can go from there.

If not now, when?

 

[MilEME09]

Someone said it earlier and I agree...let's actually call up the PRes (not voluntary) and see what happens. We will either be pleasantly surprised or it will be an epic fail and we can go from there.

If not now, when?

Two weeks after never I will guess, in our risk adverse culture, no ones going to make a bold move that could fail. Really even this might fail, PRes may have bodies but do they have enough qualified bodies, or are they all Pat's?

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I know how they don't work and that's the problem I'm trying to point out.  I joined the Reserves in 1988 and did my Basic from Jan-Jun.  In July, when it was still a base we went to London and did part of our training and then went to Meaford for the other part.  We came home at the end of the summer and by July did the equivalent of what is now QL5.  While some courses may be the same as Reg F, not all of them are.  HRA/FSA courses are shorter, MP courses are not the same as what the Ref F does.

HRA courses now take place over 2 summers (unless a reservist can land a RegF course, but that’s really rare).

There are others who can offer further detail and I’m pretty sure it’s been talked about on the MP boards anyway, but from my (limited) understanding, a PRes MP and a RegF MP’s training is different because the scope of their jobs is very different.

 

[X Royal]

Someone said it earlier and I agree...let's actually call up the PRes (not voluntary) and see what happens. We will either be pleasantly surprised or it will be an epic fail and we can go from there.

If not now, when?

There is no basis in law currently for a mandatory call up.
Nor do I see the laws changing it.

 

[stellarpanther]

It's interesting to see which off topic posts are moved and which aren't.

Since your post isn't related to the topic we could start with that one or we can just move on.

 

[stellarpanther]

Someone said it earlier and I agree...let's actually call up the PRes (not voluntary) and see what happens. We will either be pleasantly surprised or it will be an epic fail and we can go from there.

If not now, when?

As someone else mentioned, some of the mbr's in the Reserves are First Responders and medical workers, by calling people up just to see and to have them sitting around and potentially spreading it to each others wouldn't make sense.  Hopefully there's never a time to call them up. I don't think any authority exist to do this as an exercise.

 

[stellarpanther]

Where did you do your basic course?

Windsor

 

[X Royal]

Windsor

Windsor or Ipperwash. To the best of my knowledge all basic weekend courses during those times were done in Ipperwash for units in London Militia District.

 

[stellarpanther]

Windsor or Ipperwash. To the best of my knowledge all basic weekend courses during those times were done in Ipperwash for units in London Militia District.

It was out of the armoury.  We came to work around 0800-1600, went home and came back Sunday morning.  We went to Ipperwash to throw grenades and to the range, we also used the range at Cedar Springs.  Our unit ran their own basic, some other units combined with London and Sarnia. 

 

[brihard]

If people can't get away from their regular job, they shouldn't join.  Becoming a MCpl or MS isn't a requirement do I wouldn't worry about the PLQ but QL5 has to be done.  They should have a time limit to get it.  My concern though is even if someone is making themselves available during the summer, they often don't have enough instructors so people go unqualified for years.  I assume people join because they want to do a specific job.  In the Reg Force people end up quitting because they get stuck on PAT Platoon's for too long and get tired of just sitting around.  They should have it set up so you go from Basic to your trade course with a short period of rest in between.

You are aware that most of us join in high school or post secondary? And that most of a unit's leadership is built around people who have full time jobs, families, etc, but who do their best to continue contributing to their unit as best their able to once they graduate and enter into full time careers? Thinking of the sections I commanded before I got out, I had troops who were students, then became  engineers, accountants, lawyers, tradespersons, government office workers, firefighters, police officers, medical profesionals... A number did their best to stick it out, often resulting in some years of reduced activity in the busy early years of junior professional career work. The handful that stick it out long term end up being your senior NCOs and Officers outside of the permanent Cl B guys.

The life circumstances of a recruit generally do not stay the same, and the personal and professional responsibilities pile up. Quite frankly you seem hell bent on appearing to habe an informed opinion on the service availability of present day reservists based on your time in the mo' several decades ago. I'm not sure that you do.

 

[stellarpanther]

Quite frankly you seem hell bent on appearing to habe an informed opinion on the service availability of present day reservists based on your time in the mo' several decades ago. I'm not sure that you do.

Well we're all entitled to our opinions whether we agree with each other or not.  I'm stating my opinion, if a person can't get the required training in a timely manner regardless of the reason, what's the point in being in the Reserves?  Maybe I'm wrong and please correct me if I am but isn't the purpose of the Reserves to augment the Reg Force when needed or did that change since I was a Reservist?  If I'm right, how is that done when Reserve units are half full of untrained mbr's?

 

[brihard]

Well we're all entitled to our opinions whether we agree with each other or not.  I'm stating my opinion, if a person can't get the required training in a timely manner regardless of the reason, what's the point in being in the Reserves?  Maybe I'm wrong and please correct me if I am but isn't the purpose of the Reserves to augment the Reg Force when needed or did that change since I was a Reservist?  If I'm right, how is that done when Reserve units are half full of untrained mbr's?

You're entitled to your own opinion; you aren't entitled to your own set of facts. You're still not grasping that there's a difference between the circumstances of the 17 year old recruit, and the 32 year old MCpl or Sgt. And no, reserve units are not 'half full of untrained pers'. While all will have  cadre of troops going through their basic training, most reserve units have quite a good roster of people who have hit their Operationally Functional Point. In PRes infantry, for instance, most troops if they join in the fall can be fully DP1 trained by the end of the first summer. Yes, expecially in the more technical trades there are some who are not able to get trained up quickly. In other cases a member may join with every intention of being able to complete the training, but then for whatever reason hiccups ensue and their training progression is delayed- maybe a death in the family that precludes them going on course; maybe not enough course serials to handle the number of recruits, suddenly landing a good new job that they can't break away from in the first year... But I know when I was a recruiting NCO, I made sure everyone came through the door understanding the expectations regarding availability for the necessary summer(s) to get trained up.

Depending on the need, the reserves have a lot of bodies and a lot of... say section level leadership, with a modest amount of higher level leadership. That said the reserves are heavily weighted in favour of combat arms with relatively faster training towards OFP. It's easier to generate effective riflemen than effective medics or vehicle techs. So it depends on what problem set we're structuring our force against.

 

[Remius]

Well we're all entitled to our opinions whether we agree with each other or not.  I'm stating my opinion, if a person can't get the required training in a timely manner regardless of the reason, what's the point in being in the Reserves?  Maybe I'm wrong and please correct me if I am but isn't the purpose of the Reserves to augment the Reg Force when needed or did that change since I was a Reservist?  If I'm right, how is that done when Reserve units are half full of untrained mbr's?

There was a time you could get your QL2 and QL3 and even a a QL4 in a year.  Then 2 years later get all your leadership quals.  Now i’m Talking infantry.

But then they moved to the PLQ and DP system.  First year you could get your DP1.  Then you needed to get a platoon support weapons course before you could start PLQ.  Then get on the PLQ mod system.  Then get your ASA.  Then get your section 2ic course.  Then hopefully get on an advanced field firing qual.  Then go on your rifle section commander course.  I know it has gone back to the older model now but we’ve had over a decade of this broken system.  Some other trades have had it way worse.

So a 17 year old that joins might get that all done in 5 or 6 years.  They likely graduated from college or university by then and might have found full time work by then.  So by the time they are qualified to be of any use as instructors or leaders they can’t commit the same time.  Keep in mind they committed five years of summers and weekends to get to that point.  Then they get into jobs that while sympathetic and will try to accommodate, that will only go so far for so long. Also if they can’t get to Sgt they age themselves out of their peer group leaving them more or less ready to quit.

It used to be you needed a QL4 and a 10 day ex before getting promoted to CPL.  Now?  It’s automatic.  So their is really no motivation to getting promoted.  MCpl? Barely makes more than a CPL and requires way more time and effort and crap, so why bother?

These are institutional problems that need fixing but likely won’t be.

 

[MilEME09]

We have our system more paperwork intensive and longer for no reason. Example PRes weapons techs have a course on ancillary equipment, no can answer why it takes 3 weeks to teach Coleman stove and lantern, and 4 days of kitchen trailer gas Line maintenance.

I agree, and it grinds my gears that promotion seem automatic in some cases. Though I have also seen examples of it not happening to people who should never be promoted which was great to see, including one gentleman who thought he would get his leaf just because he got plq. Oh boy was that fun to see him shut down.

 

[MilEME09]

For all who want to read it, here is FJAG's article, it is a good read, eye opening as to how big our HQ has gotten especially in the Ottawa area.

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/page19-eng.asp?utm_content=buffer8ef2d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&fbclid=IwAR1gYAPZLh96VZoep2I3SPMKcCM1RlEELgVsE0PyB1k5vw9Jft0piBTJBxY