Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[MilEME09]

Again, people should not take their experience at a couple of Reserve units and use a broad brush to paint the whole Reserve system with that experience.

While I agree, I'm in Alberta, and I'm hearing similar stories on here from Ontario, while not every unit is like that yes, but it does beg the question, are we selecting bad leaders? or is it that the training for our leaders needs to be amended.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There are rules for NES but having dealt first hand with that nightmare it's not effective. People slide on and off the NES list, providing their CoC is even paying attention (providing that CoC even showed up to work), with next to no repercussions. People can ditch work for months then come crawling back and they'll get sent on good summer taskings because someones gotta do it.

As far as providing a schedule when you have a part time job you still have a schedule. You don't get to decide if you want to work 10 minutes before your shift starts and keep your job.  Reservists show up if they feel like it. I'd say it's less a part time job and more a casual job.  Reservists can actually be ordered to work up to 12 days a month if I recall correctly but I believe it was Haggis who pointed out that members who are ordered to show up for work (class A) and don't would be charged in a civilian court (vice military side) which would be a mess to try and battle.  Anyone in the reserves has seen exercises where 30 people promise to show up for a weekend ex and 7 show up and theres nothing the chain of command can do about it. I've seen unit ex's where 3 soldiers show up for an exercise. Addressing accountability and making the reserves more part time (in line with civilian jobs) and less casual work would improve the level of training among other things.

Having done the Cl A/ B / B (a) gigs in my former life, I agree; unless the CofC is willing to have a GAFF, WRT NES policy, etc and lead and administer their units IAW policy, there isn't much to you can do at the lower leadership levels.

My experience tells me that good attendance in the PRes world has 2 key aspects. 

(1) interesting training with a known end state.

(2) good morale and leadership particularly at the Jnr Officer and Snr NCO/MCpl level.  I say this because the low numbers are usually seen when 'the troops' say "f88k this, I am not going to that BS".  Then you end up with the RSS and Cl B types on the ex, pissed off and being more miserable to the few Cl A guys who DO show up...sooner or later, they start joining the "f**k this" crowd. 

My former PRes unit, in the early 90s, had upwards of 98-99% attendance rates for trg nights and weekends.  Some of the things that changed since then, which has basically left that unit in tatters, is lack of kit, lack of bucks in the trg budget which results in a low GAFF.  What was once a good *5 to 7 car troops, 3 troops PRes Armd Recce Sqn with a reasonable A1 Ech and SHQ with 2 x CPs*, etc is now...far less than that.  I don't know what would motivate me to have a GAFF now, if I was still there.

Treating reservists with the " you don't have a choice " attitude you can throw around the Reg Force can backfire, and then you see they DO have a choice to miss the "mandatory Diversity trg" weekend.  And SFA you can do about it.

My early PRes days were focused on the actual tasks we did;  trg, mini-exs on a training night such as establish a mounted OP.  We did anything we could to mix it up, and it worked.  Our attendance records showed it.  It takes the junior leadership to pop the bubble, turn off the PowerPoint projector, and actually do stuff.  We would start a trg night with a Wng O for a mounted OP task.  Let the BP happen...next night, show up, kit up, Ptl Cmdr orders, move to/occupy the Mtd OP screen, to the point where we sent in our OP reports.  End-ex, back, clean up, turn kit in, then off to the mess for the hotwash, Final Parade and a few wobblies.  Morale was high, people had +GAFFs.

If that kind of stuff isn't happening now, make it happen.  Beg, borrow, steal...train and motivate your folks.

 

[FJAG]

There are rules for NES but having dealt first hand with that nightmare it's not effective. People slide on and off the NES list, providing their CoC is even paying attention (providing that CoC even showed up to work), with next to no repercussions.  . . .  Reservists can actually be ordered to work up to 12 days a month if I recall correctly but I believe it was Haggis who pointed out that members who are ordered to show up for work (class A) and don't would be charged in a civilian court (vice military side) which would be a mess to try and battle.  Anyone in the reserves has seen exercises where 30 people promise to show up for a weekend ex and 7 show up and theres nothing the chain of command can do about it. I've seen unit ex's where 3 soldiers show up for an exercise. Addressing accountability and making the reserves more part time (in line with civilian jobs) and less casual work would improve the level of training among other things.

Paragraph 33(2)(a) of the NDA provides that reservists may be ordered to train for such period as are prescribed in regulations.

QR&O 9.04(2) is a regulation that prescribes that reservists may be ordered to train for up to 60 days on Class A service and 14 days Class B service in a year.

There are various policies and directives which indicate when a person is considered to no longer be effective and what the processes are that should be followed to release the individual.

The problem that we have is what to do when a person disobeys an order to attend training.

Paragraph 60(1)(c) of the NDA specifies when a reservist is liable under law for an offence under the Code of Service Discipline. The problem is that at the moment in time that the individual is not attending the ordered training he is generally not physically present nor meeting one of the other conditions of 60(1)(c) (I could see rare circumstances where he would be e.g. not attending training on the armoury floor but up in the mess having a beer) and therefore not liable under the CSD.

On the other hand, however, there is a provision in the NDA--para 294(1)--that makes it an offence triable before a civilian court for "failure to attend parade". The punishment is a $25 fine for ORs and $50 for officers for every day not paraded.

In part the "NES problem" is the structure of the laws as it becomes an administrative hassle to go to court whenever people fail to show up. You need to lay the charge, attend at court to prove the individual was ordered to train and didn't show up etc. The CoC in general just does not need or want the hassle. A change to the NDA would be helpful but during the time when I sat on the CRes&C council, while there were complaints about the issue, there was no appetite to seek a change in the laws.

The real problem is the false notion that reservists have some right to pick and choose when to attend military activities because they are "volunteers" and would quit if compelled to do things. This belief is deeply ingrained in our regular force CoC and to a large extent in our reserve CoC as well.

The truth of the matter is that a reservist only truly volunteers once: at the moment that they agree to be enrolled in the reserves. After that they are liable under the law to numerous provisions which can require them to report for and do their duty. That liability exists until the day that they are released from the Forces.

If we want to get around the "NES problem" we need firstly a major change in attitude in the CoC and secondly if we achieve that, then some minor changes in the laws to bring "failure to parade" within the Code of Service Discipline.

If they would quit if compelled to attend is a different issue. In my mind once you create a fair system where everyone understands their responsibilities people tend to tow the line. Besides do you really need the fair-weather soldiers who are part of the problem now. I think that in the end we might end up with a smaller force but it would be a significantly more effective one.

[cheers]

 

[mariomike]

If we want to get around the "NES problem" we need firstly a major change in attitude in the CoC and secondly if we achieve that, then some minor changes in the laws to bring "failure to parade" within the Code of Service Discipline.

Regarding "failure to parade",

They don't even have to parade 12 days/24 Nights.  Once in a 30 day period that has 3 scheduled parades in it if the unit will actually enforce the NES policy.  Depending on a unit parade schedule this could be as little as 7 parades for a unit that stands up in Sep and stands down in May.  I have seen a unit schedule based on budget restrictions in the past consist of Sep - Nov, stand down for Dec, Jan/Feb and Mar have evenings designated as on ramps if money was available so 5 evening parades kept the mbrs safe for that period.  Apr started the new FY so they had to do 1 day in Apr and 1 Day in May to finish off the training year.

 

[MilEME09]

Paragraph 33(2)(a) of the NDA provides that reservists may be ordered to train for such period as are prescribed in regulations.

QR&O 9.04(2) is a regulation that prescribes that reservists may be ordered to train for up to 60 days on Class A service and 14 days Class B service in a year.

Paragraph 60(1)(c) of the NDA specifies when a reservist is liable under law for an offence under the Code of Service Discipline. The problem is that at the moment in time that the individual is not attending the ordered training he is generally not physically present nor meeting one of the other conditions of 60(1)(c) (I could see rare circumstances where he would be e.g. not attending training on the armoury floor but up in the mess having a beer) and therefore not liable under the CSD.

Here is the problem I see here, if it's not a national emergency Reservist leave legislation covers around 20 days for annual training. Let's say QR&O 9.04(2) is invoked for 30 days, now of you have 10 days were Bloggins does not have legal job protection. That said I think this could be a useful provision for the CoC, particularly for major training events like a brigade EX.

 

[mariomike]

if it's not a national emergency Reservist leave legislation covers around 20 days for annual training.

Which province are you referring to?

Ontario
https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/reservist.php

 

[MilEME09]

Which province are you referring to?

Ontario
https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/reservist.php

BC, AB, i just looked up SK, and MB and there rules are much better. Ontario if you notice it talks only about pre and post deployment training, not general training. Manitoba has is best where it states that all training is covered. A common thing though is all state written notice must be given to an employer 4 weeks prior, thats an issue too.

 

[mariomike]

BC, AB, i just looked up SK, and MB and there rules are much better.

I didn't look it up, but I am assuming that is unpaid leave?

Some employers offer two-weeks of paid leave for annual summer training,
https://wx.toronto.ca/intra/hr/policies.nsf/a8170e9c63677876852577d7004ff7f8/58a35e5368beb69e852567bd006d7e4b?OpenDocument

 

[MilEME09]

correct it is unpaid leave

 

[RCPalmer]

Paragraph 33(2)(a) of the NDA provides that reservists may be ordered to train for such period as are prescribed in regulations.

QR&O 9.04(2) is a regulation that prescribes that reservists may be ordered to train for up to 60 days on Class A service and 14 days Class B service in a year.

There are various policies and directives which indicate when a person is considered to no longer be effective and what the processes are that should be followed to release the individual.

The problem that we have is what to do when a person disobeys an order to attend training.

Paragraph 60(1)(c) of the NDA specifies when a reservist is liable under law for an offence under the Code of Service Discipline. The problem is that at the moment in time that the individual is not attending the ordered training he is generally not physically present nor meeting one of the other conditions of 60(1)(c) (I could see rare circumstances where he would be e.g. not attending training on the armoury floor but up in the mess having a beer) and therefore not liable under the CSD.

On the other hand, however, there is a provision in the NDA--para 294(1)--that makes it an offence triable before a civilian court for "failure to attend parade". The punishment is a $25 fine for ORs and $50 for officers for every day not paraded.

In part the "NES problem" is the structure of the laws as it becomes an administrative hassle to go to court whenever people fail to show up. You need to lay the charge, attend at court to prove the individual was ordered to train and didn't show up etc. The CoC in general just does not need or want the hassle. A change to the NDA would be helpful but during the time when I sat on the CRes&C council, while there were complaints about the issue, there was no appetite to seek a change in the laws.

The real problem is the false notion that reservists have some right to pick and choose when to attend military activities because they are "volunteers" and would quit if compelled to do things. This belief is deeply ingrained in our regular force CoC and to a large extent in our reserve CoC as well.

The truth of the matter is that a reservist only truly volunteers once: at the moment that they agree to be enrolled in the reserves. After that they are liable under the law to numerous provisions which can require them to report for and do their duty. That liability exists until the day that they are released from the Forces.

If we want to get around the "NES problem" we need firstly a major change in attitude in the CoC and secondly if we achieve that, then some minor changes in the laws to bring "failure to parade" within the Code of Service Discipline.

If they would quit if compelled to attend is a different issue. In my mind once you create a fair system where everyone understands their responsibilities people tend to tow the line. Besides do you really need the fair-weather soldiers who are part of the problem now. I think that in the end we might end up with a smaller force but it would be a significantly more effective one.

[cheers]

I think that you would find a lot of support for enforced mandatory training amongst all ranks of the PRes...assuming the service expectations are reasonable. In the current model, a PRes soldier is soaked for as much time and energy as they are willing to provide.  This is why soldiers and leaders pick and choose. If you make yourself available for 100 days of work per year, the PRes will oblige. Some will do that because they want to or need the money, and that is fine. Others will take on the extra work to support their units, and they will burn out and release or their family lives will suffer.  Work three weekends on, one off for six monhs to teach a weekend BMQ?  Give up family time to track CTAT completion results or write a PER for every Cpl in the unit, even if they only trained 10 days In the whole year? Where does that fit into a part time model of service? 

Because PRes members have the option (and a veritable smorgasbord activities, courses and task that the Army is willing to pay for) some will choose the activities aligned with the priorities of the organization, and some will focus on themselves and the activities they like. 

A key part of this discussion should be an honest dialog of what we expect out of part time soldiers, and at the moment there are lots of things that we do demand that are rediculous for a cohort of people who should be focused on their civilian careers and schooling.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

I'd be all for mandatory training and work, if the legislation to protect our other jobs reflected better policy to suit.

20 training days per year is not nearly enough... Ditto 2 weeks during summer months.

I'd like more employers to offer a top-up too.

Also, If the CAF really wants us to commit more, maybe they should offer more (like better pay, and include benefits even if it's an optional buy-in).

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They should offer boots, lots would sign up then.  :rofl:

 

[MilEME09]

I think that you would find a lot of support for enforced mandatory training amongst all ranks of the PRes...assuming the service expectations are reasonable. In the current model, a PRes soldier is soaked for as much time and energy as they are willing to provide.  This is why soldiers and leaders pick and choose. If you make yourself available for 100 days of work per year, the PRes will oblige. Some will do that because they want to or need the money, and that is fine. Others will take on the extra work to support their units, and they will burn out and release or their family lives will suffer.  Work three weekends on, one off for six monhs to teach a weekend BMQ?  Give up family time to track CTAT completion results or write a PER for every Cpl in the unit, even if they only trained 10 days In the whole year? Where does that into a part time model of service? 

Because PRes members have the option (and a veritable smorgasbord activities, courses and task that the Army is willing to pay for) some will choose the activities aligned with the priorities of the organization, and some will focus on themselves and the activities they like. 

A key part of this discussion an honest dialog of what we expect out of part time soldiers, and at the moments there are lots of things that we do demand that are rediculous for a cohort of people who should be focused on their civilian careers and schooling.

If they want a lot out of the troops then the CF should be able to give back, offer up cool courses that require a CO's approval, idea being say MCpl X has been working his but off and logged 90+ class A days to keep the unit running, reward said person and say hey do you wanna go on this cool course/tasking as a break from all this? As well as we have all stated we the PRes need a defined purpose, and mandate, training should be made dynamic, and hold the interest of the troops. Training should also be audited by higher command periodically including an officer or NCO from higher HQ being an observer on an EX.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Training should also be audited by higher command periodically including an officer or NCO from higher HQ being an observer on an EX.

Once upon a time, Bde Comds would participate in training and kick CO ass if it was lame, or give an attaboy if it was good. Same for COs participating in Coy level training. That was called 'leadership', and this was one of the main roles for senior leaders. Leading by example, in person.

Now? Everyone seems to 'command' by email and 'lead' no one.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If they want a lot out of the troops then the CF should be able to give back, offer up cool courses that require a CO's approval, idea being say MCpl X has been working his but off and logged 90+ class A days to keep the unit running, reward said person and say hey do you wanna go on this cool course/tasking as a break from all this? As well as we have all stated we the PRes need a defined purpose, and mandate, training should be made dynamic, and hold the interest of the troops. Training should also be audited by higher command periodically including an officer or NCO from higher HQ being an observer on an EX.

"Cool courses"...can you elaborate some?  Trg should be something that is relevant to your trade and something you can actually use in your unit lines.  Sending PRes members on Jump Courses/Cool Course X costs money.  I'd love to get some 'cool courses' but I have the trg I need to do my job and that's my main purpose in CAF life, isn't it? 

When I was at a CBGHQ, we certainly did send Obs/Controllers out on Bde Exs to see how things were going down, sometimes embedded right at the sub-unit (troop/Ptl) level.  Back then at least, the HQ operated and exercised as a HQ and there really isn't that many 'free' people to observe trg that understand what the trg is about.  There's no sense sending a Log O to observe an Arty unit, as an example.

 

[mariomike]

I'd like more employers to offer a top-up too.

We had / have two weeks of paid military leave every year. It isn't cheap for the employer.

My salary for two weeks ( 80 hrs. ), plus calling in 80 hours of overtime at time and a half ( 120 hrs. ) = 200 hrs. to cover my shifts.

I had to give my two weeks pay from the CAF to The City Treasurer, but it didn't compensate them for those 200 hrs.

Maybe the Government of Canada should be topping up the employers?

 

[MilEME09]

"Cool courses"...can you elaborate some?  Trg should be something that is relevant to your trade and something you can actually use in your unit lines.  Sending PRes members on Jump Courses/Cool Course X costs money.  I'd love to get some 'cool courses' but I have the trg I need to do my job and that's my main purpose in CAF life, isn't it?

My definition is any course that offers a new skill set that isn't learned from a power point presentation for a couple days. Something like a jump course would be expensive, but say the unit was given three positions on a CIMIC/psy ops course, offer them a spot before others. Preferential treatment? maybe a bit but if bloggins is keeping the lights on, and the cogs moving, why not give him first crack when these things come up?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My definition is any course that offers a new skill set that isn't learned from a power point presentation for a couple days. Something like a jump course would be expensive, but say the unit was given three positions on a CIMIC/psy ops course, offer them a spot before others. Preferential treatment? maybe a bit but if bloggins is keeping the lights on, and the cogs moving, why not give him first crack when these things come up?

Rewarding key members is always a good idea.  I guess the overall point is you've got to take what you have and make it as interesting as possible; that is what you can do at your level, always, to make it as interesting as possible and keep people showing up.  Like my example above;  a mounted OP scenario for Armd Recce where one trg night was Battle Procedure, the next one (a week later...) was H-hour to ENDEX.  Or, foot patrols.  In the winter, we concentrated on mandated winter ex stuff, and made the exercises more than just up pole/down pole stuff because that just sucks ass. 

I know this gets said, but the reality of boredom/routine/no cool courses etc also exits in the Regs.  I just accept it as part of military life.  I had a trade in the PRes that had lots of things to train for in Armd Recce so we never ended doing the same thing over and over.  Back then, we also had comms for each C/S, we had enough veh's for a Sqn, etc.  Doesn't seem to be the norm these days, so I am not sure how the interest levels can be the same.

NCOs and WOs come to their CofC with problems and recommended solutions.  Look around your unit, find ways to break the routine and do what you can to make it happen.  I don't think you are going to see an increase in the $$ the PRes has in the near future...

 

[daftandbarmy]

My definition is any course that offers a new skill set that isn't learned from a power point presentation for a couple days. Something like a jump course would be expensive, but say the unit was given three positions on a CIMIC/psy ops course, offer them a spot before others. Preferential treatment? maybe a bit but if bloggins is keeping the lights on, and the cogs moving, why not give him first crack when these things come up?

The best reward is well planned, resourced, led, incrementally challenging and effective training, and the sense of personal confidence and competence, and peer and other kinds of recognition that emanates from that.

All the other stuff is merely icing on the cake.

 

[childs56]

Paragraph 33(2)(a) of the NDA provides that reservists may be ordered to train for such period as are prescribed in regulations.

QR&O 9.04(2) is a regulation that prescribes that reservists may be ordered to train for up to 60 days on Class A service and 14 days Class B service in a year.

There are various policies and directives which indicate when a person is considered to no longer be effective and what the processes are that should be followed to release the individual.

The problem that we have is what to do when a person disobeys an order to attend training.

Paragraph 60(1)(c) of the NDA specifies when a reservist is liable under law for an offence under the Code of Service Discipline. The problem is that at the moment in time that the individual is not attending the ordered training he is generally not physically present nor meeting one of the other conditions of 60(1)(c) (I could see rare circumstances where he would be e.g. not attending training on the armoury floor but up in the mess having a beer) and therefore not liable under the CSD.

On the other hand, however, there is a provision in the NDA--para 294(1)--that makes it an offence triable before a civilian court for "failure to attend parade". The punishment is a $25 fine for ORs and $50 for officers for every day not paraded.

In part the "NES problem" is the structure of the laws as it becomes an administrative hassle to go to court whenever people fail to show up. You need to lay the charge, attend at court to prove the individual was ordered to train and didn't show up etc. The CoC in general just does not need or want the hassle. A change to the NDA would be helpful but during the time when I sat on the CRes&C council, while there were complaints about the issue, there was no appetite to seek a change in the laws.

The real problem is the false notion that reservists have some right to pick and choose when to attend military activities because they are "volunteers" and would quit if compelled to do things. This belief is deeply ingrained in our regular force CoC and to a large extent in our reserve CoC as well.

The truth of the matter is that a reservist only truly volunteers once: at the moment that they agree to be enrolled in the reserves. After that they are liable under the law to numerous provisions which can require them to report for and do their duty. That liability exists until the day that they are released from the Forces.

If we want to get around the "NES problem" we need firstly a major change in attitude in the CoC and secondly if we achieve that, then some minor changes in the laws to bring "failure to parade" within the Code of Service Discipline.

If they would quit if compelled to attend is a different issue. In my mind once you create a fair system where everyone understands their responsibilities people tend to tow the line. Besides do you really need the fair-weather soldiers who are part of the problem now. I think that in the end we might end up with a smaller force but it would be a significantly more effective one.

[cheers]

You need to read NDA SERVICE 33(2) and 33 (3).
and then 31 (1)


other wise the only time a Reserve Soldier has an actual obligation to training and or employment is when they sign a contract such as Class B or C, or they signed the Class A training day pay sheet. Reserve Soldiers have a moral obligation to attend training but that is it. Unless a Order of Council is done.

Job Protection and Leave for training is only mandatory for Public Service employees. A couple of the Provinces have also enacted Legislation to Protect Reserve Jobs for training who work for the provincial service. Otherwise Civilian Employers are under no Obligation to allow Reserve Soldiers time off for training or Deployments.

Right now I know a few excellent Reserve Soldiers who can only attend a few nights a year due to their full time job requirements, (not everyone works M-F 8-5). Their Units recognize this and they also recognize the value those soldiers have to their unit. When push comes to shove those Soldiers get the job done, usually at great personal and work sacrifice. Which the Forces could care less about. But the Member needs to weigh the options and consequences.
I personally would work my Civilian job for 8-10 hrs  a day, then do another 4 hrs+ a night 4 days a week unpaid at my unit. Then was usually in on the weekends to ensure things were taken care of, Call backs were done for possible recruits, paper work was filled out for requests.
Lets say I burnt myself out after a few years and so did a few other guys. My Civilian job suffered greatly as did my social life
I laughed the day the Brigade Commander came for a visit and I was at my desk full of papers, unshaven and in civies, feet on my desk as he and the Bgde Sgt Maj walked in. The Sgt Maj blew a gasket and asked me if i regulalry came to work unshaven and in civies. I responded yes I do when I am not paid to be here and  the job needs to get done and there is no one eles around to get the job done.