quadrapiper
Sr. Member
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It's unrealistic until the CAF can join up enough training for going from "attested" to "employable" to become a proper gap year option, pre, post, or midway through post secondary.runormal said:
Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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You want to get serious? OK:
A great majority of Primary Reservists join while they are in High School and continue on through university. That is a good eight years right there. They have three months on average, every summer, where they are looking for employment. Three months is enough time to get them through a Basic Crse in St Jean, and then OJT at their unit, Trades training the next summer, PLQ another summer, etc. They parade at their unit in the Fall, Winter and Spring, and do full-time training in the summers.
??? There is no need to take off semesters. Students, as stated above, would parade as they currently do at their own units, and will have full-time (Class B) employment to do courses in the summer. Of course, they can pass up doing 'military' training and carry on with job placements that fill educational requirements or go on ED&T.
When it comes to military courses; well the Schools will just have to get off their butts and actually plan their Course Scheduling to accommodate the "New CAF".
There are already programs in place: ROTP, RESO, UTPM, and on and on. Some would have to be amended to reflect the "New CAF" and some would likely be deleted. For instance, perhaps ROTP would be expanded to cover all officer candidates who are in a university program, no matter what unit they are members of.
runormal said:
A great majority of Primary Reservists join while they are in High School and continue on through university. That is a good eight years right there. They have three months on average, every summer, where they are looking for employment. Three months is enough time to get them through a Basic Crse in St Jean, and then OJT at their unit, Trades training the next summer, PLQ another summer, etc. They parade at their unit in the Fall, Winter and Spring, and do full-time training in the summers.
runormal said:
??? There is no need to take off semesters. Students, as stated above, would parade as they currently do at their own units, and will have full-time (Class B) employment to do courses in the summer. Of course, they can pass up doing 'military' training and carry on with job placements that fill educational requirements or go on ED&T.
When it comes to military courses; well the Schools will just have to get off their butts and actually plan their Course Scheduling to accommodate the "New CAF".
runormal said:
There are already programs in place: ROTP, RESO, UTPM, and on and on. Some would have to be amended to reflect the "New CAF" and some would likely be deleted. For instance, perhaps ROTP would be expanded to cover all officer candidates who are in a university program, no matter what unit they are members of.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Just think of all the people who can get their box "promoting change" checked off. [
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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runormal said:
As a RESO Officer, and college student, I did Phase 2 (4 months, May-August) one summer then Phase 3 (May - August) the enxt summer.
8 months in total over 2 years.
Totally do able.
If there was an option for me to do 8 months at once (I think Phase 2-3 could be done in 6, but that's just me), on Class B saving tons of cash for tuition, I would have jumped at it.
daftandbarmy said:
When the first RESO courses were designed in the mid-70s, I know we gunners aimed to come up with a program that would produce a competent war time officer. I believe the other arms worked to the same end. There was some material that we were directed to use that was not required for war time, but was needed for the CF officer development criteria. And believe me, we wished we could also use the RESO courses for regulars as we would have saved a ton of time and resources.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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daftandbarmy said:
I did ROUTP Phase I in one summer. When I was doing ROUTP Phase II they had started converting to RESO, and made RESO 1-2 to be a little less than what the ROUTP I had been. RESO 3 became what the ROUTP Phase II had been. RESO 4 was OJT. I finished RESO 4 for a total of threes summers training. Not hard for a university student.
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I'll take a stab at it. For the sake of the argument, I'm assuming that the current Reg-F standard will be the new standard.George Wallace said:
First off your 8 year figure is way off, let me explain it. It is closer to 5 (if they apply when they are 16 or 3 if they apply in university)George Wallace said:
The vast majority of reservists I've talked to and worked with started in University (Sample sourced:from my unit, basic, SQ, units I've worked with 2011-2016) (I will admit that high school recruits do exist but are the minority). Reasons for joining in university ranged from: Wanted to max out cadets, Declined from RMC, never thought about it, needed a part time job. Another factor to consider in this debate is the amount of time it takes to transfer from unit x/y. Attach posting from personal experience and talking with others who have attach posted is fairly short (3 months ish) the only one who I talked to about transferring took something like a year, which to me seems excessive, but it is definitely a factor to consider in this plan because the member lost a year of training as a result of the transfer (because the member moved cities to attend school). I'm not sure if this is normal or not so I'm not going to include this in my calculations.
Regardless let crunch numbers...
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/faq-220
To join the Forces, you must:
Primary Reserve applicants, who must be 16 years of age (while maintaining full-time student status) or older. So if we assume that every applicant applies when they turn 16 and assume the Date of Birth for each applicant is evenly distributed (Which would mean that 50% of the applicants would be born before/after July allowing them to train that year assuming they could be processed in time and that units had spots.... For argument sake lets assume that every recruit is ready to train (processed) by June 1st of their 17th birth year. This would be put every student at the end of their 3rd year of high school. While some students who be processed in grade 10 and others would could stay for a "Victory Lap" or 5th year, these people would be in the minority. This would give every student 16 weeks (between the summers of grade 11-12 and grade 12-university which would be enough time to run a BMQ / SQ if you broke it into two mods. However anyone who applied in grade 12, or was RTU'ed for whatever reason would be in this weird limbo and not fully qualified, which would then screw up their schedule afterwards.
Assuming that every/most applicant goes to a 4 year university program (Which I would wager is the majority but it likely depends on the city). We now have 3 summers to train them.
Summer 1: DP 1 (Forgive me I don't know the length of every Army reg-F DP 1.0 but i'd wager this is fairly safe to assume that DP 1.0 as well as the end of summer exercise would occupy the bulk of the time)
Summer 2: DP 2* + Support courses I.E: (Driver wheel, Support weapons (infantry), Arty Comms (Arty), MSVS/Air Brakes, Engineers (I know they have some cool courses), Service Battalion (I don't have many close friends in these trades but what I was told from them is that "It takes forever to get trained" or "We will never be fully qualified")
Summer 3: PLQ
Summer 4: You've graduated! Hopefully applied to jobs in January so that you are working in your field or semi-related. If not Here is a CLS B position for RSS ;D
*Not entirely sure what the status on most trades for DP 2.0. I know with ACISS P-RES it is a joke 7 days DL + and assessment form your unit. However IMO it doesn't seem logical to do DP 2.0 the same summer as PLQ. I'm not sure if there would be enough work for every trade in this summer as I have no idea what the reg-f DP 2.0 standard is.
In summary I don't really don't think that there enough time to fully train reservists to the reg-f standard (Assuming training times remain the same) even if they maxed out their summers. It can be done if they start when they are 17 but then they will graduate with no experience in their field of study, which in today's work force is a death trap. Just look at the entry level jobs that want you to have 1-2 years of experience with knowledge/skills that can only be obtained by doing the job beforehand.
While I admit this that this more proactive statement as a opposed to reactive, I didn't want anyone to suggest it. WRT to work obligations/missing training. Fine you can, but at my university COOP started after during the summer between 2nd year and 3rd year and was then a constant cycle of school/work placement until you graduated which means if you didn't get trained in the first summer of university or transferred into the program of study (like me) then you only had one summer to muck around with the reserves. Which means that the reserves would loose good applicants because they can't balance the reserves + coop. Even if the member can't get into CO-OP at their university they should seriously look at other student employment opportunities whether it is with the local government, university itself or provincial or federal government as well as corporations.George Wallace said:
While skipping training for a summer is an option (My friend did it) he kept on getting re-hired and could never get qualified in the reserves as a result and thus released.. I turned down PLQ myself for the same reason.
George Wallace said:
Why? Why would they do this? When I inquired about CO-OP and I said "I'm not sure if i will be fully trained by the end of the summer with the army reserves can I miss the first work term?" "We don't accommodate for army reserves." "Sweet" . Not really much you can do their when you've already invested $14k to the university and transferring credits is a pain in the ass and sometimes impossible. CAF reservists are also a minority on campus some courses I took where only offered once a year (granted up year courses year 3/4, but I know the same thing applied to 2nd year courses for other students). Likewise some courses had a disproportionate amount of offerings in semester over the other. Without being mandated from the government they aren't going to do jack.
George Wallace said:
While we could expand ROTP or create some sort of benefit package who is going to pay for it? We don't even have enough LSVW's let alone quality boots to do our jobs in the first place...
Let me be clear, I don't think a one year gap year between high school/university "mega" course is a bad idea I just don't think it should be only the option. Likewise how do you retain these new soldiers? It is already a challenge to keep people after school as it is.
I also don't disagree with your pay system either, I'm just concerned about the proposed training system and that it might be slightly out of touch with the realities of the job market today.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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runormal said:
I hire BComms and MBAs every once in awhile.
They all have pretty limited life experience and 'character development' compared to a qualified Combat Arms/CSS Officer who has been through the mill at Gagetown etc. Military experience is a HUGE force multiplier when combined with a degree, especially when compared with restaurant jobs or cheesy 'save the world' type volunteer work.
If someone walked through the door with good grades in a relevant degree and any kind of military experience, Officer or NCM, I'd put them right a the top of the pile.
Just sayin'...
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daftandbarmy said:
Which is fine and dandy, but not everyone has military experience and/or understands how the military works. I've already been screened out of one job out of few entry level jobs that I've applied to for lack of relevant experience (even though I will graduate with over a year of full time experience).
One interview I had a question along the lines of "tell me a time you had to deliver bad news to a client/customer". As I worked on internal projects mainly I didn't have a strong example in the office. I used an army example of when I was attached to an infantry unit and someone said " hey rad OP my radio is not working properly" so I then explained how I trouble shooted/isolated the problem and wrote an n/s tag with the specifics and explained to the user what the problem was (some thing was screwed up with the antenna input and that I couldnt fix it because I'm not a tech) and how we would make it work for the final attack and reassured the "client" that it needed to be repaired after the excercise. The response? (uh yeah can you explain it again I don't understand this) so I did. For what it is worth I did qualify for said job and have been placed in a pool, however MTF on the front.
Again I'm not disagreeing that military provides good life lessons/skills. As a result being in military I've learned the importance of attention to detail, how to prioritize things, trouble shooting, time management, leadership, personnel management and a "can do" attitude. As a student working in an office, I've been praised for my attention to detail, the speed that i work and ability to find solutions for any problem. Which I credit mainly to the army as well as growing up on a farm.
It however is often to difficult translate it into interview or screening questions "explain how you have thorough experience with Microsoft office suite." "Explain how you have experience providing HR support services for at least a year". I've had jobs where I haven't even bothered applying for because I know I don't have quite enough experience.
It also depends on your major I'm sure that if you were an engineer or for example it would be really relevant. The current system is good because people can get trained fairly quickly (1 - 2 summers )and then if they want they can find cls B with the army for their remaining summers or diversify their resume and take advantage of student employment within their field.
Not saying it couldn't be improved because it definitely could. But I don't think that matching qualifications and training lengths to the reg f 1:1 is the proper solution.
daftandbarmy said:
Cool geographically and industry wise where do you work?
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GR66
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If Regulars and Reservists are going to be merged into a single CF with different classes of service, then why assume that it must mean trying to shoehorn Class A members into the existing full-time system? Redefine the trades training so that members can be employable earlier. Change the ways that the CF schools schedule and deliver their courses. It would be a huge task to make such a fundamental change, but if it actually fixes something that isn't currently working then it would be worth it. However, just fudging it and tinkering around the edges will likely break more than it fixes.
:2c:
:2c:
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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GR66 said:
Pretend we're in a global war. That tends to streamline the processes a bit and help focus on what is really important
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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runormal
I get the impression that you figure everyone will follow the same education path, career path and select the same Trade as you. What works for you may not work for someone else. At the same time what works for many others, may not work for you.
Perhaps thinking outside the box may help you when looking at the problem(s).
The Training System exists today. Even before the advent of digitalization to the CAF, the Schools would draw up their Crses and Crse Schedules for a minimum of three years in advance. There should be no problem in scheduling Crses to accommodate CAF members who only want to work part-time as Class A for periods of Class B training during the summer months, while running Fall, Winter and Spring courses for those who wish to make the CAF a full-time career.
With this system, the current Reg Force Bases and units would see no change; but the current Reserve units would see the implementation of a "full-time" cadre of personnel to run the day to day operations of their unit, maintain their facilities and equipment, and be a 'ready reserve" to react to a crisis or augment other units on deployments. It would justify and permit the issuance of kit to the Reserve units that they currently are unqualified on and have no capabilities to store and maintain. The benefit being that the "training delta" between Reg and Reserve members would no longer exist.
I get the impression that you figure everyone will follow the same education path, career path and select the same Trade as you. What works for you may not work for someone else. At the same time what works for many others, may not work for you.
Perhaps thinking outside the box may help you when looking at the problem(s).
The Training System exists today. Even before the advent of digitalization to the CAF, the Schools would draw up their Crses and Crse Schedules for a minimum of three years in advance. There should be no problem in scheduling Crses to accommodate CAF members who only want to work part-time as Class A for periods of Class B training during the summer months, while running Fall, Winter and Spring courses for those who wish to make the CAF a full-time career.
With this system, the current Reg Force Bases and units would see no change; but the current Reserve units would see the implementation of a "full-time" cadre of personnel to run the day to day operations of their unit, maintain their facilities and equipment, and be a 'ready reserve" to react to a crisis or augment other units on deployments. It would justify and permit the issuance of kit to the Reserve units that they currently are unqualified on and have no capabilities to store and maintain. The benefit being that the "training delta" between Reg and Reserve members would no longer exist.
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George Wallace said:
I don't really think I'm all that special in education/career path. I'm a business major, my course schedule is more strict than anyone in arts or social studies but less strict to those in engineering/hard sciences. As for career path, no one is at school for "fun" or for interest unless mom and dad are footing the bill. When I graduate in may I ideally would like a job in my field. I really don't think I'm asking for anything out of the ordinary. I did briefly look at options within the CAF, but was told that MARS and LOG were both closed for 5 years for CT/OT. I was told to either pick other trades, remuster in the reserves (impossible as I won't be able to get the time off work) or release and re apply :
... I did look at that NAV COMM but was told that aren't taking any CT(U) this year (In October), yet they are taking 70 off the street ;D. So I've more or less given up on a career in the reg-f because I can't even get an interview. I'm also not the only who is a tad bitter about the CT/OT process, I've got friends who have waited similar amounts of times (years) and got nothing out of it.While it is true some people may be doing masters or supplementary education (Designations or college certs) most of us would kill for a job after we graduate without incurring my debt/time in a class room. Like wise I don't think I'm asking for the unthinkable for wanting to get experience before I graduate. If I was there wouldn't be government sponsored programs as well as rebates for employers who hire students. Students get experience and employers can try out students very a little cost, if they are good give them rehire them for subsequent summers and give them a job when they graduate. If they suck, don't re hire them. You also save the time/money associated with running a staffing process as you already have qualified candidates. I'm also not the only one in my unit who took a summer off to work in their field...
As for my trade in the CAF I also don't think I'm special or that everyone wants to be a sig. However again I think I'm in the middle of the pack in terms of how long it takes to be qualified. Arty can be trained quicker, Infantry is about the same time (with the shorting of SQ CSS trades), engineers is longer, weapons tech / veh techs is much longer. Not to sure about MP's, Supply Techs, MSE-OPs, Armd Recee, or med techs but I'd imagine they are all around the 2-3 month mark. What ever we do needs to incorporate the "big picture". You have trades with varying amount of time to become qualified as well as some trades that need Driver wheel and trades that require more equipment (Sigs, Armoured Recee, Cmbt ENGR, MSE-OP) or consumable equipment (combat arms). You also have to factor in the availability of high-school students and university students. Highschool students finish at the end of the June and University students finish at the of April. You also need to acknowledge that not everyone isn't going to start in grade 11 and not everyone is going to start in their freshman year of university. Likewise some people are going to college which gives them even less time. We can't cater to every special scenario but we should try to accommodate the majority. Seeing how most trades can be trained in 1-2 summers I think we are doing okay on that front.
George Wallace said:
I'm not sure what problems you have identified in this statement. Or what potential solutions you are offering. How is this any different then what is currently being done at reserve units? We already have people on CLS B to do this who do this. In the sigs world at least advanced equipment isn't the problem it is the basic kit such as LSVW's and serviceable generators or Mil-cot with dual installs + remote kits as well as J-Boxes that are in short supply. It'd be cool if we had some of the newer equipment as well but I think that should be a priority once we have enough of the basics. With that being said this training Delta seems to be going away as they are starting to run intro courses on the new kit before it comes into service.
Like wise
If you want to look at problems in the reserves look at" recruiting (time), retention and availability of equipment to do said job.
My biggest gripe with training is how some courses are "separate". For example ATCIS with the combat arms guys, DVR WHL with Sigs, Arty, Supp Techs, Med Techs (Armoured Recee/Mse-OP? are these separate or not?) Dangerous goods and Driver Wheel. SQ with everyone who isn't infantry.
I'm not going to suggest "mega" courses, but it'd great if we could create an Infantry/ACISS/CBT ENGR/Trade XYZ Summer Package. Kind of like how PLQ is currently broken down into mods and that you can in theory do one mod and come back the following next summer. Keep all the courses "Separate" but have them run one after the other. Personally it took me two summers to become a qualified rad op, I did SQ the first the summer (1 month), was supposed to do DVR WHL but it got pulled last minute, the second summer I did DP 1.0 (2 months). Luckily i had a very accommodating retail job that allowed me to employed the entire time and take time off for courses.
For example:
We push weekend basics + SQ (Assuming it stays the 13 days it is) for everyone who isn't Infantry. High-school students get priority for the SQ these courses because they only have two months to give in the summer.
Sigs:
world you would do you SQ if you needed it (May), followed by DVR WHL (June) and then July to August you'd do your DP 1.0.
Infantry:
May (ATCIS) June ( DVR WHL? / GD/ Combat Stores Man ) July- August (DP 1)
Arty:
May Driver Wheel (LSVW + Milcot) June ( Airbrakes + MSVS) : July Dp 1.0 August (Arty/Comms/prep for summer training ex.). SQ if they need it (Has to be fit in somewhere).
The point is we do all the supplementary course in May/June and ensure that both university students and High school can get on the DP 1.0 During July/August. We adopt a system like this that when candidates swear in we can give them their dates and allow them to plan accordingly. Since we know exactly how many candidates we are going to hire each year, we can project how many students will be available for summer training and how many courses we need to run, now the army can guarantee employment which will make it that much more attractive. Like wise the unit is guaranteed to get a fully qualified candidate. Obviously not every student will pass, some will VR, some will be medically RTUED. Definitely will be some variables to iron out, but if we made a push back to national courses for certain trades, we could guarantee that we would have enough candidates to fill each course.
What do you/others think?
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
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I think this is 'window dressing' that won't change anything in the cake, just the icing. Will we have more 'active service' members? No. Will we have more 'weekend warrior' reservists? No.
Think of how much time and money it takes to train someone in my trade to a Basic Category, just-showed-up-at-the-Sqn, operator. And now they are going to be what is now known as Cl A service. Waste of time waste of money. And they'd always be at that "not quite useful yet" level.
I think the same could be said for many trades in the Navy and RCAF. Maybe the C Army could make this work in some trades, but it will never happen across the board.
We will maintain a Regular and Reserve Component of the CAF because making it 'all one CAF'...well it already IS 'all on CAF'.
Think of how much time and money it takes to train someone in my trade to a Basic Category, just-showed-up-at-the-Sqn, operator. And now they are going to be what is now known as Cl A service. Waste of time waste of money. And they'd always be at that "not quite useful yet" level.
I think the same could be said for many trades in the Navy and RCAF. Maybe the C Army could make this work in some trades, but it will never happen across the board.
We will maintain a Regular and Reserve Component of the CAF because making it 'all one CAF'...well it already IS 'all on CAF'.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Eye In The Sky said:
It is quite obvious to anyone who is knowledgeable of what is involved in training for many of the CAF Trades, that NOT ALL Trades can have entry level personnel filling a Class A position. There, however, is the possibility for Class A positions in some of those Trades to exist for fully trained pers who may be retiring from the CAF, who still want to keep an affiliation with the CAF, as what we already see today with "Double Dippers". (See other discussions on changes affecting "Double Dippers".)
Canada's does have "One" CAF, split into Regular and Reserve Forces. We know that. The suggestion was made to do away with that "Regular/Reserve Split" and make it "ONE".
Is this the perfect solution? No. It is a part of this thread's "brain storming". It is a "outside the box" "take the blinders off" train of thought.
runormal
Yes, there are Class B at Reserve units today; filling positions of Storemen, Trg NCO, and other single/individual 'office or admin' positions. The proposal is to create a minimum of a whole Platoon/Troop/Bty of Class B positions at local Reserve units would be the idea. An effective "QRF" in essence.
As for Recruiting:
Recruiting issues that exist today for both Reg Force and Reserve Force is a red herring. Recruiting issues have existed in the past, and will exist in the future. They will be affected by the attitudes towards the military held by the Public, effectiveness of Recruiting campaigns, manning numbers and financing dictated to the CAF by the Government, and numerous other National and World events.
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
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George Wallace said:
Which we have in my trade, and at my Sqn. The changes to the Double Dipping rules really hurt the CAF (IMO).
In the context of the threads title, I don't think the solution to the PRES problem list is to revamp the Reg Force; fix the PRES. You, me and others who have served on both sides know they are different worlds with similarities between them.
I realize that, and nothing wrong with any of that, I was just trying to show it wouldn't work 'across the board'. More so than RCAF NCM flying trades, I was thinking of the enormous amount of time required to train, say, NETs in the Navy. Or Air Wpns Systems Techs, FCS Techs in the Army, etc.
I also don't support planning the operational capability of the Forces around the monetary needs of university students. That is the taxpayer opinion in me, as well as the military one.
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Another example of how it might be done:
Sweden http://jobb.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/vagen-in/grundutbildning/ (you might need to hit the translate switch).
Summary:
18 year old Swede (male or female)
4 - 5000 per year
GMU (Basic Training) universal
Decision Point
Three paths
Soldier (Regs), Homeguard (Militia/Res), Officers.
Regs get an additional 3 to 8 months trades training.
Homeguard gets an additional 1 to 4 months trades training.
Officers get an additional 3 months Officer stuff training.
http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/en/about/career-in-the-swedish-armed-forces/military-programmes-and-training/
Homeguard goes back to civilian life and is called up annually for exercises. (Normally about 8 days a year - either 1x 8 or 2x 4).
Regs offer both full and part time positions on contract.
Officers are Special.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Guard_(Sweden)#Equipment
The Heavy Weapons are held by the Regs.
The Homeguard uses the Glock 17, G3, MAG, M2, CG-84 and the AT-4. For mobility it has a variety of wheeled vehicles with cross-country capability, the Bv206 and the CB90 combat boat.
Sweden http://jobb.forsvarsmakten.se/sv/vagen-in/grundutbildning/ (you might need to hit the translate switch).
Summary:
18 year old Swede (male or female)
4 - 5000 per year
GMU (Basic Training) universal
Decision Point
Three paths
Soldier (Regs), Homeguard (Militia/Res), Officers.
Regs get an additional 3 to 8 months trades training.
Homeguard gets an additional 1 to 4 months trades training.
Officers get an additional 3 months Officer stuff training.
http://www.forsvarsmakten.se/en/about/career-in-the-swedish-armed-forces/military-programmes-and-training/
Homeguard goes back to civilian life and is called up annually for exercises. (Normally about 8 days a year - either 1x 8 or 2x 4).
Regs offer both full and part time positions on contract.
Officers are Special.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Guard_(Sweden)#Equipment
The Heavy Weapons are held by the Regs.
The Homeguard uses the Glock 17, G3, MAG, M2, CG-84 and the AT-4. For mobility it has a variety of wheeled vehicles with cross-country capability, the Bv206 and the CB90 combat boat.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Eye In The Sky said:
Many of the PRes problems stem from lack of current equipment and technology held by the Reg Force, and the ever growing Training Delta that this has created. Revamp the whole CAF into a "Total Force", so that that equipment and technology can be held within the PRes by creating the opportunity for full-time employment of the pers required to man and maintain that technology and equipment. This would likely make the TBGs more effective, as there would be QRF Troops/Platoons/Btys at 'Reserve' units.
Eye In The Sky said:
Pointing out why is can't or won't work 'across the board' with the current ORBAT of the CAF means that what we are discussing is necessary. It won't work with the current system, so we must change the system. The system has to evolve. Currently it is stagnating and dying a slow death.
Don't fixate on the amount of time that it takes to train Flying Trades, NETs, Air Wpns Systems Techs, FCS Techs, etc. Those would only be Class A positions after a person was fully trained and had opted later in their careers to 'retire' and just want to 'keep their hand in' part-time. Most of those Trades are on Bases/Ships and require full-time employment. At the same time, it would also benefit the (old) PRes to have full-time Maintainers posted into their HQ Sqn/HQ Bty/HQ Coy to service their equipment in a timely fashion. Not all Trades are represented in current PRes units, and that is a problem (ie. No Gun Plumbers to maintain wpns and equipment. No Vehicle Techs to keep their VOR rates down.) A 'new CAF' may resolve this.
Back to Recruiting: One part of recruiting to the CAF is "visibility". If CAF members are visible and in the Public eye, recruiting has one less hurtle to leap. Beefing up the CAF with more full-time employment at what is currently PRes units, may be one hurdle less to jump.
Eye In The Sky said:
I think that is a red herring, or such a minimal concern as not to be a consideration. The number of university students involved would be such a low percentage of the Total Force, that it would be inconsequential.
McG
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Every now and again, this thread circles back to proposals that seem more driven to the glory of the PRes than to the needs of CAF service to the nation. I feel we have arrived at one of those points.
Our ability to support domestic operations does not benefit from scattering military full time pay as platoons in every armoury across the country. We can already deploy company (+) to battalion (-) into a domestic theatre faster than provinces know what to do with the manpower. Our real value added is in the standing, exercised unit headquarters and in the formed logistics strength that comes from a manoeuvre unit’s admin sub-unit and the backing of a full Service Battalion. You do not get that with scattered platoons (even it all the platoons are CSS).
Think you will get access to the newest Gucci kit? We don’t buy enough. Even in the CMBGs, resources need to be pooled and shared to get the requisite levels or training. Dispersing full time manpower will not give the part time manpower access to kit and thereby elevate skill sets; dispersing full time manpower will diminish everybody’s access and related skill sets.
Total Force and 10/90 were failed experiments.
Our ability to support domestic operations does not benefit from scattering military full time pay as platoons in every armoury across the country. We can already deploy company (+) to battalion (-) into a domestic theatre faster than provinces know what to do with the manpower. Our real value added is in the standing, exercised unit headquarters and in the formed logistics strength that comes from a manoeuvre unit’s admin sub-unit and the backing of a full Service Battalion. You do not get that with scattered platoons (even it all the platoons are CSS).
Think you will get access to the newest Gucci kit? We don’t buy enough. Even in the CMBGs, resources need to be pooled and shared to get the requisite levels or training. Dispersing full time manpower will not give the part time manpower access to kit and thereby elevate skill sets; dispersing full time manpower will diminish everybody’s access and related skill sets.
Total Force and 10/90 were failed experiments.
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