Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[Kirkhill]

One thing that I have noticed when comparing reserve systems is how many other countries start off with a 10 to 12 week basic course  on signing.  Just like the regs.  The Regs and Reserves separate after that course.  I'm pretty sure the Swedes, the Danes and the Yanks aren't teaching basic skills on the Weekend. They all seem to start with a solid indoctrination effort right at the very beginning.

The only outfit that I have seen that does without the indoctrination period and tries to train on the Canadian Militia pattern is the Danish Homeguard.  But they are unpaid volunteers who are only employed after they have been tested and approved by the Regs.

 

[George Wallace]

One thing that I have noticed when comparing reserve systems is how many other countries start off with a 10 to 12 week basic course  on signing.  Just like the regs.  The Regs and Reserves separate after that course.  I'm pretty sure the Swedes, the Danes and the Yanks aren't teaching basic skills on the Weekend. They all seem to start with a solid indoctrination effort right at the very beginning.

The only outfit that I have seen that does without the indoctrination period and tries to train on the Canadian Militia pattern is the Danish Homeguard.  But they are unpaid volunteers who are only employed after they have been tested and approved by the Regs.

Back in the day, that is how we used to train the Militia; "Go to Summer Camp and be trained Basic, then move into Trades Training" all in one summer (for most Trades).

 

[daftandbarmy]

One thing that I have noticed when comparing reserve systems is how many other countries start off with a 10 to 12 week basic course  on signing.  Just like the regs.  The Regs and Reserves separate after that course.  I'm pretty sure the Swedes, the Danes and the Yanks aren't teaching basic skills on the Weekend. They all seem to start with a solid indoctrination effort right at the very beginning.

The only outfit that I have seen that does without the indoctrination period and tries to train on the Canadian Militia pattern is the Danish Homeguard.  But they are unpaid volunteers who are only employed after they have been tested and approved by the Regs.

This is a good idea, and I am amazed we always tend to skirt around it with various 'modules' etc,, or being oversensitive to the needs of various secondary/ post-secondary educational programs.

There is no reason why we can't train an Officer to RESO Phase 3 standard within a 6 to 8 month period. In that time I'm sure we could get a soldier to an equivalent level of competency e.g., ready for 2 stripes in all but length of service.

Both streams would be start together, then diverge after a month or so. They would meet back at the 'Annual Collective Training Event' in August. After that, off you go to your regiment to begin a fulfilling career at whatever you have been trained for.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Back in the day, that is how we used to train the Militia; "Go to Summer Camp and be trained Basic, then move into Trades Training" all in one summer (for most Trades).

That works when you don't have 20lbs of shit crammed into a 5lb bag....as some of our trades training takes up a whole summer to start..

 

[quadrapiper]

This is a good idea, and I am amazed we always tend to skirt around it with various 'modules' etc,, or being oversensitive to the needs of various secondary/ post-secondary educational programs.

There is no reason why we can't train an Officer to RESO Phase 3 standard within a 6 to 8 month period. In that time I'm sure we could get a soldier to an equivalent level of competency e.g., ready for 2 stripes in all but length of service.

Might actually be easier for students in some programs to take a term or a year off, rather than dealing with penny-packet disruptions.

 

[Halifax Tar]

***I REALIZE I AM DRIFTING OUTSIDE MY LANE, AND I DIDN'T USE MY BLINKER***

I have many peers who have done RSS jobs/postings.  Most of them hated it.  One of the things they all joked about was going on weekend ex with 1 LCol, CWO, and a whole slew of MWOs, Officers and other WO/Snr NCOs and almost no Jr NCMs. 

Perhaps what is needed is less officers and more NCMs and compulsory training, your civi commitment or job be damned.  Granted some form of parliamentary legislated job protection would be needed but if you want the Army reserve to be taken seriously start acting seriously, step one: hold people accountable. 

I know our Force Pro section on 1-10 was a joke.  It was all Army Reservists from the Toronto Brigade.  19 year old MCpls with 2 years of weekends and  1 hair cut in the army, trying to lead grown men/women with actual experience did not turn out well.  I tell ya, they were great at C7 IAs and stoppages but just about anything else was way, WAY beyond them.  They tried hard, and they did catch on, but it did not start out well. 

***DRIFTING BACK INTO MY LANE***

 

[daftandbarmy]

Might actually be easier for students in some programs to take a term or a year off, rather than dealing with penny-packet disruptions.

Exactly, especially if they're getting paid full time, which will help fund the rest of their degree or whatever.

 

[mariomike]

Granted some form of parliamentary legislated job protection would be needed but if you want the Army reserve to be taken seriously start acting seriously, step one: hold people accountable. 

As discussed in the Reservists Job Protection Superthread, some employers have a Military Leave policy. Ours was,

A two week leave of absence with pay per calendar year. All benefits continue during the leave. An employee's service is not affected by the leave. An employee's vacation entitlement, seniority and pension credit do not change.

"Employees are paid their regular pay provided they submit any compensation received for military service to the city treasurer, unless this compensation is paid for days they are not scheduled to work."

It was negotiated by the union. Perhaps something similar could be legislated?


 





 

 

[Haggis]

Perhaps something similar could be legislated?

As noted in great detail in the Job Protection thread, legislating this on a national scale is not going to fly in Canada. Employment law falls squarely in the provincial purview for non federally regulated employers.  There is a hodge-podge of uncoordinated provincial/territorial laws right now, with each jurisdiction offering slightly different protection for Reservists.  I highly doubt the present government will make any moves to harmonize the provincial job protection legislations.


Edited to remove extra spaces added by the cat.

 

[Harris]

Before we decide what training the reserves do, shouldn't we determine what mission we have first?  As far as I see we currently have none.  Based on some of the comments upthread, we don't even have a standardized training regimen within Divs, not alone across the country.  For example I ran pre-PLQ trg for my guys in Feb this year.  I believe only one other Unit in the Brigade did too I believe.  The only reason I was able to was because there was extra $ around, not because it was mandated.

Unfortunately most of what I see is the regular force wanting us to be more like them (closer to full-time) and the reserve force wanting to be what we currently are (closer to part-time).  Unfortunately we are somewhere in between.  The Government can't have it both ways without the laws and tools to do one or the other.

I've got guys who are edging up on 80-100 class A days (not including short Class B or summer employment).  That isn't the 37.5 (minus various HQ "tax") days we spout to troops.  Nor is that even close to the one weekend a month and one night a week we still tell recruits.  If the part time members of the Unit were forced to only work those hours, the Unit would have to shut down.  I'm being tasked with regular force admin/trg tasks that are done during reserve force hours and things drop off the plate.

 

[McG]

One thing that I have noticed when comparing reserve systems is how many other countries start off with a 10 to 12 week basic course  on signing.  Just like the regs.  The Regs and Reserves separate after that course.  I'm pretty sure the Swedes, the Danes and the Yanks aren't teaching basic skills on the Weekend. They all seem to start with a solid indoctrination effort right at the very beginning.

10 weeks will not be achievable for NCM as long as we accept high-school students into the force.  For that group, 7 weeks is achievable for an initial block training with some flexibility on dates. 

On the officer side, training has already exceeded that (at least, it exceeded that target at one point in the past).  There was a time (maybe still now) when RESO Ph I was run for all Militia officers by the Infantry School through the month of May (after University academic years, but while RMC was still busy with academic retesting and grad parade rehearsals).  Then the RESO and ROTP officers would come together for Ph II through June and July.  The first week of August was theoretically also Ph II, but in practice it was a week long parade practice for a giant all-CTC grad parade ... I believe some hard PRes occupations (like Armd Recce officer) continued to train through this week and graduated with much more modest ceremonies the week following.  Then for the remainder of August, the RMC students went on leave and the Militia officers went back to their area concentrations.  There were about a dozen weeks of solid block initial training.

I believe the giant CTC summer parade was killed over the past decade for budget constraints and related pressures to reduce student training days, and one could decide that getting fully trained officers is more important than having the newly trained 2Lt at summer concentration.  In theory, there could be 16 to 17 weeks to take a first year university student and turn that individual into a fully qualified Pl Comd before the start of second year (and meaning at least two more employable summers to run courses before that same individual graduates into the civilian job market).

This will not work for all officer occupations, but it could be an achievable model for many.

That works when you don't have 20lbs of shit crammed into a 5lb bag....as some of our trades training takes up a whole summer to start..

So do we say that if it cannot be done in a summer, it cannot be done in the PRes?  Or are there other ways?

What if occupations requiring a full summer just for occupation specific stuff were trained as infantry in the first year.  They could even be employed in an infantry unit over the next year until going to occupation training the next summer and joining the parent unit in the fall.  Unsuccessful students would stay with the infantry.

As noted in great detail in the Job Protection thread, legislating this on a national scale is not going to fly in Canada. Employment law falls squarely in the provincial purview for non federally regulated employers.  There is a hodge-podge of uncoordinated provincial/territorial laws right now, with each jurisdiction offering slightly different protection for Reservists.  I highly doubt the present government will make any moves to harmonize the provincial job protection legislations.

More details on that here:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-reservist-support/job-protection-legislation.page

 

[daftandbarmy]

What if occupations requiring a full summer just for occupation specific stuff were trained as infantry in the first year.  They could even be employed in an infantry unit over the next year until going to occupation training the next summer and joining the parent unit in the fall.  Unsuccessful students would stay with the infantry.

Excellent idea. The infantry should be the place where hopes and dreams go to die. It will prepare them well for the next 'Forlorn Hope' task

 

[Kirkhill]

Excellent idea. The infantry should be the place where hopes and dreams go to die. It will prepare them well for the next 'Forlorn Hope' task

:cheers:  That didn't take long.

Beyond that I think McG presents an interesting basis for discussion.  Especially if it is compared to this:

TERMS OF ENLISTMENT

After successful completion of Marine Corps Recruit Training and becoming proficient in their MOS, Marines in the Reserve begin their duties as a Reserve Marine. From this point forward, training periods are called drills, which usually occur one weekend every month and two weeks each summer (full-drill status). The last portion of their commitment is spent in the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR) where they are not obligated to participate in military activities unless specifically called upon to meet support requirements. Enlistment term options include:

The first six (6) years are spent in a drilling status with the last two (2) in the IRR. Those who wish to participate in the Post-9/11 GI Bill must choose this program.
The first five (5) years are spent in a drilling status and the last three (3) will be as an IRR member.
The first four (4) years are spent in a drilling status and the remaining four (4) in the IRR.

Some of the options buy the High School grad a college or university degree.

Meanwhile, for the Reserve Officer

A Reserve Officer must meet the same qualification process required of a regular, active-duty officer. Upon completion of OCS, TBS and MOS school, the Reserve Officer will be assigned to a reserve unit. Reserve Officers have the option to choose the location where they will serve, often near their hometown. They commit to training one weekend a month and two weeks a year. The rest of the time, the Reserve Officer enjoys a civilian life, but is ready to be called into action at any time.

http://www.marines.com/eligibility/service-options/reserve?nav=LP1

 

[runormal]

Might actually be easier for students in some programs to take a term or a year off, rather than dealing with penny-packet disruptions.

It could work, but I have a few reasons why I think it might not:

A) At the university I was at CO-OP started in the second summer, and you couldn't miss any time after that (I gurantee each University is different, but it is definitely something to consider). I got lucky because I transferred into program which gave me two summers to muck around with the reserves ;D. I even asked about the fact that I was a reservist and was told that they didn't accommodate.
B) Lots of summer student jobs require you to be full time before/after and the work term, depending on when this ends you might miss out on a summer of employment in your field.
C) I know personally I would of lost my parents benefits if I took a term/year off and wasn't full time.  My benefits are fairly lucrative and lot more than what I get as a CLS A reservist in terms of benefits.
D) Member get's hurt on the course. Now what? 
E) What about pre-req's, I've had courses that were only offered once a year, in my 3rd year in a fairly large university. There were also courses that were "easier" to take in the Fall or Winter because there were more time slots. I.E Stats 1 had 6 courses in the Fall and 1 in the Winter, whereas Stats II had 2 in the fall and 4 or 5 in the winter. You need Stats 1 for like 5 other courses and if you had conflict or failed it you typically set yourself behind a semester. Again not the end of the world, but it is something to consider (other programs may have more strict/flexible timelines depending on the major).
F) Course gets cancelled what now? I've just put my life on hold.

Don't get me wrong, it most certainly would be easier to get trained in one shot. You could train BMQ-L + DRVR WHL + ACISS DP 1.0 in one summer. It would be tight, but for university students it would work. They currently run the DRVR WHL's and the ACISS DP 1.0's back to back and it is working fairly well. Heck if you started the basic on the weekends in Sept and did SQ after you graduated then you could without question train everyone up and have them ready for their 3's in May. (Other than the INF since they don't do SQ any more). High school students are another issue but if they could get BMQ + SQ during the school year, and have 2 months to give.

Could it perhaps be a national course and be optional while still running the other courses in blocks?

What if occupations requiring a full summer just for occupation specific stuff were trained as infantry in the first year.  They could even be employed in an infantry unit over the next year until going to occupation training the next summer and joining the parent unit in the fall.  Unsuccessful students would stay with the infantry.

What about the fact the infantry is a V3 Occupation? There are numerous people who I know who are only sigs because they couldn't get into inf in the first place. ACISS DP 1.0 is only 2 months so it may be a moot point. However you are "supposed" to have DVR WHL prior to going to go on the course (So i've been told) I believe that the really long NCM courses are combat eng and a lot of the service battalion techs.

Perhaps what is needed is less officers and more NCMs and compulsory training, your civi commitment or job be damned.  Granted some form of parliamentary legislated job protection would be needed but if you want the Army reserve to be taken seriously start acting seriously, step one: hold people accountable. 

If someone is that available why not just join the reg-f in the first place? As for the civvy job it is going to be a tough sell to task people to take 3-6 months off to go back to part-time after the course. Though again it could work well in seasonal jobs (Fishing, Farming and Construction), and perhaps this is where the reserves should target if they want people other than university students. But when the reserves are working how available are these people going to be?

 

[LightFighter]

What if occupations requiring a full summer just for occupation specific stuff were trained as infantry in the first year.  They could even be employed in an infantry unit over the next year until going to occupation training the next summer and joining the parent unit in the fall.  Unsuccessful students would stay with the infantry.

Force people into the infantry before they are allowed to become a clerk, signaller, or whatever? 

Not everyone wants to be Infantry nor is everyone cut out to be a Infantryman. Plus, some people can not meet the medical category for Infantry, but meet the category for their trade.

As well what happens to these recruits if they do not meet the medical category for the infantry or fail DP1 Infantry?

As well, I wouldn't want to deal with people in the unit who don't want to be there and are just waiting out until they can go on to their DP1 course and do the job they signed on to be. As well, on the other end of the spectrum, what if Bloggina signs up to be a Maintainer with a Service Battalion but after completing DP1 Infantry and now decides he no longer wants to be a Maintainer. Now the service battalion has lost a new member and has to wait X amount of time until they can get another person to fill that empty position.

 

[a_majoor]

Since people generally follow incentives, then perhaps we need to look at how to incentivise the Reserves for both members and employers.

Incentives for members:

A more realistic pay and benefit package. A pension is fairly meaningless to a 17 year old reservist, but if it was replaced by a group RRSP plan they would see immediate benefits (a tax reduction) as well as a long term benefit (the compounded interest growth of the actual plan). Canadian law also makes the RRSP accessible for things like house down payments, so with proper explanation, this can appeal to the more astute members. Group RRSP programs are generally free, since financial institutions will eat the costs to get your business, and the potential of getting 20,000 customers will have banks and financial institutions jumping through hoops of fire to provide a Reserve Group RRSP. Group RRSP plans will also save a lot of money for the military as well, since conventional pensions are very expensive to run in terms of overhead.

Medical and dental plans. Nothing gold plated, but a very basic coverage plan which also answers the questions like "what happens if I get hurt on training nights?"

Real training opportunities. If Maple Resolve were to be done at the end of the summer when traditional Reserve concentrations were held, you could probably get a vast number of Reservists signing up to go, especially if they were getting to perform in a challenging and fairly realistic environment. There will need to be some very clear boundaries, especially in terms of leadership, but all reserve platoons/equivalent formations with reserve Pl Comd and Pl 2I/C's seem doable.

Make military qualifications transferable to civilian life. This is especially important for the trades, where being a qualified vehicle tech or medic does not seem to translate into the "real world".

Incentives for employers:

Instead of job protection legislation and associated paperwork and red tape, give employers generous tax breaks per reservist, up to some pre set limit. This will give employers an incentive to let people go on training so they can collect the tax break, while careful crafting of the legislation will ensure that "dummy" corporations are not being set up to mine tax benefits by hiring all reservists (shocking thought!) and protecting smaller employers from being hollowed out by their reserve staff leaving at once (say no more than 10% of the work force)

The Reg Force and training system will also have to clean up their acts, especially in terms of being able to plan and delivery courses and training where and when they say they will. No one wants to take valuable vacation time for a course or exercise then get burned by having the dates changed at the last minute. And training will have to be streamlined so people are not being left out in the cold because they need to take a 13.5 week long course but don't have 13.5 weeks available.

OF course that does mean smashing a few rice bowls and dismantling some "empires", but if we want to have an effective reserve force, we do have to think outside the box.

 

[mariomike]

Make military qualifications transferable to civilian life. This is especially important for the trades, where being a qualified vehicle tech or medic does not seem to translate into the "real world".

If they have the qualifications, now is the time to apply,
http://torontoparamedicservices.ca/paramedic-opportunities/
Closing Date 05-Jan-2016

 

[ArmyRick]

Halifax Tar

"I know our Force Pro section on 1-10 was a joke.  It was all Army Reservists from the Toronto Brigade.  19 year old MCpls with 2 years of weekends and  1 hair cut in the army, trying to lead grown men/women with actual experience did not turn out well.  I tell ya, they were great at C7 IAs and stoppages but just about anything else was way, WAY beyond them.  They tried hard, and they did catch on, but it did not start out well. 
***DRIFTING BACK INTO MY LANE***"

I was not on that tour but I happen to know some of those NCOs and troops. Have something specific or just plain old mud slinging? I know from speaking to an RCR captain on 1-10 that he was sick of wogs slagging force pro when they were doing a fine job.

 

[ArmyRick]

PM sent to Halifax Tar.

Enough with the reserve bashing, some of us get really sick of it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Halifax Tar

"I know our Force Pro section on 1-10 was a joke.  It was all Army Reservists from the Toronto Brigade.  19 year old MCpls with 2 years of weekends and  1 hair cut in the army, trying to lead grown men/women with actual experience did not turn out well.  I tell ya, they were great at C7 IAs and stoppages but just about anything else was way, WAY beyond them.  They tried hard, and they did catch on, but it did not start out well. 
***DRIFTING BACK INTO MY LANE***"

I was not on that tour but I happen to know some of those NCOs and troops. Have something specific or just plain old mud slinging? I know from speaking to an RCR captain on 1-10 that he was sick of wogs slagging force pro when they were doing a fine job.

I spoke to several NCMs and Officers who did gate guard and their observations were revealing. The gist if it was that reserves are always more effective when employed alongside and fully integrated with their Reg F counterparts, as has been the practice up to this point. When employed in a 'ghetto' on jobs no one else wants to do, like full time gate guards, they don't tend to have the same success rate. And who would, really?