Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[Michael Dorosh]

Why are they below standard, THE F***ing MESS thats why. I was in the reserves and most went there to drink. Ask any RSS, training? Whats that? I have been down to Armouries and see more people in the mess or just sign in. When a unit has a SGT for a SSM. You know there is something wrong!
There are soldiers out there that would showup and train. On one course I had to teach a driver to drive. I don't have time to teach a course on a course. Basic things can be taught. You don't have to go anywhere to teach weapons, drills, NBC, orders, etc. All you need is a class room and students.
You cannot organize training when you don't even know how many people will show.

I'll add my voice to the chorus; this certainly isn't the case here in Calgary, at least not in our unit.

I'll mention again the problem of "national" courses; if they decentralized the instruction on some of these courses for Reserves, and relied more on OJT - to the point of allowing POs to be signed off - I have to believe there would be more retention and more qualified soldiers.  The "qualification" would only be as good as the instructors, unfortunately.  This is how the band system worked, and still does - the qualifications are checked by yearly inspections by a central authority.  I'd expand that system - pbi is right about senior NCO/WO/Offrs having real life burdens that increase exponentially concurrent to their rise in the military ranks.  But the problem doesn't begin at the sergeant or captain level, even private soldiers with good jobs will be reluctant to abandon families and employment for 12 weeks, or more.

I attended 4 weeks of QL3 training as RMS in Borden at CFSAL after a mandatory remuster; the course was, frankly, a joke.  The first half was done by distance learning, and was useful.  What was taught at the school was usually prefaced by "this is Reg Force admin, don't worry about remembering it, you'll never use it."  And I certainly haven't in the last 3 years.  I don't remember much about what was taught, though I do remember being put on extra duties for a wrinkled bed.  I realize it was a QL3 course and geared towards 19 year olds, but the majority of us reservists were remusters from other trades and the average age of the course was late 20s; at 31 I was not the oldest on the course by any stretch of the imagination.  Aside from age, many of the senior people on course had been employed for months if not years in orderly rooms.  Surely to God their POs could have been checked off - if the work is being done in the unit to an acceptable standard, why waste 4 weeks of taxpayer money, not to mention civvie vacation time, to "learn" stuff that you have already been doing, or else will never use anyway?

For a young troop just new to the Army, the QL3 course would have been most useful, but to us experienced remusters (most of whom were corporals with at least QL4 in another trade, some with JNCO training on top of it) it was embarrassing.

Perhaps some sort of two-tier training system needs to be in effect?

We currently train BMQ and SQ soldiers as a subunit without any kind of "centralized" course - I realize the perils of decentralization but I wonder if they aren't a necessary evil for the Reserves?  Can we not take the money that would be spent on housing and feeding reservists for 4, 8 or 12 week courses and instead appoint inspectors-general to oversee OJT within the units themselves?

 

[pbi]

We currently train BMQ and SQ soldiers as a subunit without any kind of "centralized" course - I realize the perils of decentralization but I wonder if they aren't a necessary evil for the Reserves?  Can we not take the money that would be spent on housing and feeding reservists for 4, 8 or 12 week courses and instead appoint inspectors-general to oversee OJT within the units themselves?

This is exactly the argument we have been waging in our Bde for the last couple of years: "One Standard" does not have to mean "One School" especially now that we have established a system of Bde Standards Cells that answer to LFDTS via the Area Standards O and have access to all training in the Bde. One of the examples that we used to support the argument is that of training medical doctors. All across Canada, doctors must meet exacting standards. If they do not, people get sick, or die, and the malpractice suits fly. So, obviously, "one standard" is important. But nobody in his right mind suggests that Canada, or even a single Province, must have only one medical school.

Considering that we have the Standards Cells, we have course documents on line, and that many of the instructors come from the Bdes and units anyway, we feel that there is a case to be made for decentralizing as much training as possible, while strengthening our mobile Standards Team capability. The Schools should probably focus more on producing these standards people and instructor cadres, and get hte production moved out to the LFAs and Bdes. Otherwise I do not see exactly how we will get out from the Indiv Trg backlog mess we are facing now.  Cheers.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Honestly I think that if the unit is only a compnay then it should have an OC not a CO, and be pruned of its entirely useless senior ranks.

It is entirely possible that some units have pools of senior ranks who stand around doing nothing; but, I reiterate one of my favourite points: before people are pruned, make certain they are redundant by proving that the remaining staff should be sufficient to run the unit or shortening some of the required work load.  As I once wrote, I would not like to be the sub-unit OC, 2I/C, CSM, or coy clk (all class A) being handed stacks of open files and terms of employment by the downsized CO, DCO, RSM, and BOR staff.  Barring a revolution in administrative practices in the reserve, a "company" is still going to require all the same job functions.  One could instead merely reduce the CO and RSM appointments each by one rank and save $3000.00 per year (plus whatever results from trickle-down of rank-capping).

>I refuse to believe that a reserve company sized element can generate more admin that a regular force company

As pbi noted, it's not the raw volume, it's the available time to deal with it.

If you want a Deployable Right Now reserve, I think it will be necessary to revolutionize the terms of service, training, and administration.

 

[Roger]

We currently train BMQ and SQ soldiers as a subunit without any kind of "centralized" course - I realize the perils of decentralization but I wonder if they aren't a necessary evil for the Reserves?   Can we not take the money that would be spent on housing and feeding reservists for 4, 8 or 12 week courses and instead appoint inspectors-general to oversee OJT within the units themselves?

On a other note, if you leave the forces for more than 5 years you might have to start from 0 if you come back in. For sure if you are out more than 7 years. I am a reservist now that was in the forces as a sargent and had to take BMQ, SQ1 and SQ2 and I have a couple of friends that want to join the reserves but out more than 7 years and are not interested in starting from scratch, one was in the Airborne Regiment. For me it was a waste of my time and money for the Government. The hard part was trying to stay awake through the BMQ being taight by Corporals who had to look up in referece books to answer simple questions like what was a full metal jacket. I considered my BMQ a total waste of time and more of a anger management course. I did enjoy the field portions of the SQ1 and SQ2.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Absolutely, Chop - we have an ex Infantry Master Corporal from the PPCLI who has been out for over 5 years.   He wants to come back as a piper now that we have increased paid positions once again.   They say he would have to do basic all over.   Well, the guy has wife and family and a great paying job with Calgary Transit.   He's supposed to take a massive pay cut in order to attend a course that will enable him to...recognize ranks and salute properly?   Do drill?   He's been playing with the band as a volunteer for years, I think he knows how to march, really, I do.   Another ridiculous situation which common sense should be able to sort out.

What possible benefit would there be to taking basic over again?  TOETs with the "new" weapons?  Granted, but that can be done OJT as part of Warrior Training each year.  The supporting trades do it every year also; many relearn the drills from scratch (they also seem to change every year, also) in any event, so add one more to the pile.

Changes in military law?  Again, a one day refresher might be in order.  Two weeks of drill periods doing about turn on the march by squads really doesn't seem to be a good use of time and resources, from either his perspective or the Army's.

 

[Roger]

You could imagine having to learn drill all over again, it was fun. If they are not sure what to do then make ex foces members take the SQ2 or trade course. Then you learn the weapons spend 4 weeks on course rather than 12.

But who am I to say, I am not in Ottawa with my super officer intelligence....

 

[brin11]

I would check those timings again for equivalency.  I recently obtained an equivalency for QL4 in my old trade after 8 years absence.  No basic training or SQ at all.

 

[Michael OLeary]

What possible benefit would there be to taking basic over again?  TOETs with the "new" weapons?  Granted, but that can be done OJT as part of Warrior Training each year.  The supporting trades do it every year also; many relearn the drills from scratch (they also seem to change every year, also) in any event, so add one more to the pile.

Changes in military law?  Again, a one day refresher might be in order.  Two weeks of drill periods doing about turn on the march by squads really doesn't seem to be a good use of time and resources, from either his perspective or the Army's.

I wonder if any unit has built the proposal and staffed it upwards to conduct an abbreviated refresher course for returning members. It should be a relatively simple matter of tearing apart the CTP and identifying what will be a refresher (drill, etc.), what will be comprehensively reviewed and retested (weapon handling, etc.) and what will be taught in full (any new material - Mil Law, etc).  Such a proposal is unlikely to be developed by the training system, because they don't have the issue in their laps, but it might find support through the Chain of Command if sold effectively.

 

[Roger]

I would check those timings again for equivalency.   I recently obtained an equivalency for QL4 in my old trade after 8 years absence.   No basic training or SQ at all.

you are not the only one that I heard of, I think it has a lot to do with the recruiting officer, it pisses me off at no end when I hear it. Its true military bull&*^%^. But what do you do, take your lumps and move on.

It is 5 years you risk loosing and 7 you loose it all. If you are a trade like a dentist then you may be able to join and just get a refresher even though you where never in the forces.

 

[Recce41]

PBI
I know between the Wind R and the E&K. They did have about 200+ pers back in the 60s/70s. And the accomodation policy is only if the soldier can recover. Or to take them to 20 if less than a yr. Why should they take a postion at the unit.

 

[brin11]

Actually it took me about a year and a half after joining again to get the equivalency and recruiting was not involved.  The equivalency came straight from LFAA.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I wonder if any unit has built the proposal and staffed it upwards to conduct an abbreviated refresher course for returning members. It should be a relatively simple matter of tearing apart the CTP and identifying what will be a refresher (drill, etc.), what will be comprehensively reviewed and retested (weapon handling, etc.) and what will be taught in full (any new material - Mil Law, etc).   Such a proposal is unlikely to be developed by the training system, because they don't have the issue in their laps, but it might find support through the Chain of Command if sold effectively.

I guess the question is, how many returning ex-soldiers does the Militia have, and would it be worthwhile for brigades to run "refresher" courses.  Perhaps if you integrated these refreshers with Warrior or other standard unit training, and made them of benefit not to just the half dozen or so returning members, but for entire unit/brigade, it might be more worthwhile?

 

[Roger]

Actually it took me about a year and a half after joining again to get the equivalency and recruiting was not involved.   The equivalency came straight from LFAA.

Took me a year and a half as well to get nothing, is this not just great

 

[a_majoor]

Couple of notes:

Most of the Admin in the Regular Force is or soon will be on central database programs like "Peoplesoft" , CFTPO and so on, and a lot of Reserve admin is migrating there too. The idea of orderly rooms and clerical functions could go to the boards if this is taken to its conclusion. (Soldiers can and will do their own queries, while course reports etc. get fed in by the course staff, QM records by the QM staff, the CSM swipes every soldier's "smart card" at first parade to input pay etc).

LFRR Phase II could logically lead to the end of "units", by amalgamating the current company/squadron/battery sized "units" into actual companies/squadrons/batteries of extended units with rank and positions adjusted accordingly. Where I work, there would be a six company "31 Light Infantry Bn", 31 Armoured Recce, 31 CER (we have that already), 31 Artillery and 31 SVC BN. Historic ties and continuity would be maintained by the subunits (A Coy [Essex and Kent Scottish] 31 LIB, or C (Windsor) Sqn 31 Armd). While I am sure a lot of the "old guard" would be disgruntled by changes of this magnitude, life goes on and within five years the vast majority of soldiers would be new and "31 Battlegroup" would be the only organization they will have any knowledge and experience of (or emotional ties to).

Removing the administrative overhead of clerical work and "regimental" staffs for these units could result in more resources being freed up to raise and train soldiers. Obviously, there are certain details to work out, especially how to select and put together the higher level staff (CO 31 LIB etc.), but in the military past sub units have operated independently for long periods of time, and todays communication technologies allows for rapid passage of information to keep the subunits tied together for a common purpose.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Well and good that clerks are being eliminated from the system - so when my pay is inevitably fucked up, do I complain to the CSM, or to the Smart Card?

;D

 

[48Highlander]

    Just locate your friendly neighbourhood Hacker NCO and get him to input a few extra payments.  I'm just wondering who'd keep watch over the system in this little scenario when there's so many possible avenues for abuse.

nice double-post by the way  ;D

 

[Michael Dorosh]

At my civvie job, we actually have three seperate levels of administration...Human Resources, who tracks positions, pay incentives, etc., Staff Scheduling, who do the data input of when you worked and how long (and also replacing staff with relief, something irrelevant to the Reserve Army), and finally Payroll, who track deductions, generate the cheques, etc.

Hard to imagine the Reserve world eliminating this completely.  WE just implement Peoplesoft, by the way - wasn't a great implementation, but even once it is up and running smoothly, I've heard no rumours of jobs being lost as a result.

Not hard to imagine, mind - many officers now do their own correspondence, for example, since PCs and laptops are universal (at least at home).  But do we really think there will be no tasks remaining for orderly room clerks and company/battery/squadron clerks - like simple PA?

 

[Brad Sallows]

You think the Guardians of Information are going to let just anyone access it?  Good luck.

 

[a23trucker]

Oh and has anyone heard that Oracle has bought out Peoplesoft and has anounced that it won't be supporting the program in the future.....I hope the system won't need a fix...... :crybaby:

 

[pbi]

Most of the Admin in the Regular Force is or soon will be on central database programs like "Peoplesoft" , CFTPO and so on, and a lot of Reserve admin is migrating there too. The idea of orderly rooms and clerical functions could go to the boards if this is taken to its conclusion. (Soldiers can and will do their own queries, while course reports etc. get fed in by the course staff, QM records by the QM staff, the CSM swipes every soldier's "smart card" at first parade to input pay etc).

A majoor: in an unusual move, I will disagree with you on this part of your post.

This comment has been re-surfacing for years. It first emerged when the computer made its appearance in units. It basically ignores the fact that most admin work in a unit requires human input, human assessment, and human analysis and explanation of results. It also ignors the fact that pers admin is way, way more than shuffling digits around. We have had PeopleSoft for a while now and all it really does IMHO is give a better tool to manipulate information. It does very, very little to address the broad scope of the human workload, and almost nothing at all for most of the pers admin issues I mentioned in my earlier post. What is its role in a grievance, or an SI, or an HI, all three of which suck hours and hours of valuable Class A time? What is its role in screening an individual for an op? 

I rank this idea along with the idea that the computer was going to produce the "paperless office" and greatly reduce our workloads.  Ummmmmm......right. Next pipedream, please?

IMHO the clerk is not a typist: he is a pers admin tech, like a vehicle tech. He solves problems the "user" cannot, just like the guys in the MRT solve problems that the users cannot. Just giving him a smarter typewriter doesn't remove the need for him, or his expertise. We are so burdened by mandated administration in the CF, all of which requires dedicated human involvement, that the idea of reducing admin staff will IMHO merely result in  a) admin not getting done, which translates rapidly into QOL and then morale issues; or b) some bayonet will have to do it, but without the training or background.

Cheers.