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Discussion on Israeli Strategy

tamouh said:
IDF is very popular for these tactics of bombing the hell out of their enemy's infrastructure to send a point.....we'll make it very costly for you to even ponder at attacking us.  Kinda the bully approach if you want my opinion.
   
              Your opinion ! , well let's see, do you have any military experience ? you keep talking about the terrorists point of view, they have no point of view except to KILL,KILL ,KILL all the Innocent people they can, and now this unprovoked attack on Israel ! you don't know what you are talking about, as a 1'st GULF WAR VET I'am getting tied of your BS, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE ? your mental opinion is the same as the cancer over there ! .
              Bombing the enemy's infrastructure is not a point, but it has been going on for a 1000 yrs + so the enemy can't resupply ( but they are bullies ), you hit them hard & fast with all you can , this is not a school yard fight ! this is WAR !
              Good luck to the IDF kick some ASS ! wipe them off the map !
:gunner: :evil: :fifty:
 
The thing that really bothers me about Western Society (in general) is that the philosophy of minimal force is so prevelant, that it may one day undo us all.  It is best represented (in my opinion) in pop-culture films, such as, yes, get ready for it, "Independance Day".  Think about it.  These really big frisbees have just wiped out New York City, Washington and Los Angeles, and they are getting ready to wipe out more cities.  What do the Americans do?  They send up a squadron or two of F18s with miniscule missiles.  Only after the President realises that they intend on exterminating man kind does he say "Nuke the bastards".  Now, this is just a movie, but think about it.  People even now in the media have said "just kidnap two Hezbollah and call it even".  Sorry, that doesn't do it.  Just imagine after 11 September, the US looking for some Al Qaeda sky scrapers to bring down, or Taliban Subways or Afghani Night clubs! 
So, Isreal has been attacked, soldiers captured, others killed.  All unprovoked.  What to do?  Hit back, and hit back HARD!  After all, if Isreal finds itself in a fair fight, then something has gone wrong.  After all, Hezbollah has only brought unguided rockets to a PGM* fight (*Precision Guided Munitions).  Good on the IDF to standing up!
 
+100 Van Garvin,
                          In a war if you use minimal force, you are out of the game !
          Lets nuke them, with there 2000 yr old F'D up way of thinking, they are going to pull the hole world into WW 5, rid the world of the cancer NOW ! , before it's to late !
 
Yes IDF is a bully, and their tactics have always and will remain this way. I can see bridges in Southern Lebanon to be blown up to prevent the move of heavy equipments, there is no need to bomb the Airport at this stage, north Lebanon power stations, dairy farms, Greek Orthodox Church, Saint Therese Hospital, and pharmaceutical plant .  

Or ohh.....let me see, Hezbollah is hiding their Zelzal-2 missiles in a bunker under the church!

There were stories during the 1967 and 1973 war that when Israel withdraw from a region, they'd destroy every building standing before handing the region back to the Arabs. When I read these stories, I though to myself these must be Arab Propaganda.

Yet, Israel prevailed itself again with such tactics when it withdraw from Gaza. It destroyed every single house, building in that area so the Palestinians won't be able to use it.

You want to convince me these are the actions of a government seeking Peace ?  Opposite, these are the actions of a bully and Israeli government and IDF is a major bully in the region.
 
Tamouh:
When surrounded by potential enemies, sometimes it is due to wisdom that one acts as Isreal has.  Isreal is not the only power in history to conduct so-called "scorched earth" policies, so I don't think it is fair to single them out for that. 
As for the factories, farms, "chicken factories" as one place in the media mentioned, well, I don't know what their targetting policy is, but I highly doubt that their policy is indiscriminate (as the RCAF's policy was when bombing Germans in World War Two).
I can only suppose that Isreal is not at all pleased with the way in which Hezbollah has been able to freely operate in Lebanon.  They have how many rockets in that sovereign nation?  Where is the blame for Beirut to allow this?  Perhaps the lesson they are trying to give here is "don't let these guys operate within your country, lest you also feel the brunt of our wrath"
 
    Tamouh
                     YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT !

                   

     You blow up everything before the pull out,
 
        You sir took a stupid pill the first day on here !
 
bilton090 said:
    Tamouh
                     YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT !
Don't attack the man, attack his post, which I felt was reasonable, though I didn't agree with it.
 
When surrounded by potential enemies, sometimes it is due to wisdom that one acts as Isreal has.  Isreal is not the only power in history to conduct so-called "scorched earth" policies, so I don't think it is fair to single them out for that.  

They're trully then the champion of these tactics.....lets give them the thumbs up for a job well done!!!!!

I can only suppose that Isreal is not at all pleased with the way in which Hezbollah has been able to freely operate in Lebanon.  They have how many rockets in that sovereign nation?  Where is the blame for Beirut to allow this?  Perhaps the lesson they are trying to give here is "don't let these guys operate within your country, lest you also feel the brunt of our wrath"

Lebanon has nothing to do with this, and that is what has been said since day 1. If Israel wants to go after Hezbollah after these attacks, they were welcome to do so......they'd at least save Lebanon the struggle to dismantle or merge Hezbollah. But No, Israel wants to make a show, lets the bomb the hell out of Lebanon so any nation in that region knows that if you hit Israel with any force, whether or not the people who hit Israel were acting on behalf of your government or not,  we'll bomb the s$## out of you.

You know what i see in the future ? I see small group of people obtaining light weaponary, crossing the border, killing couple of Israeli soldiers just to provoke war between two countries. What Hezbollah did right now will eventually become a path, a mission for other organizations wanting to provoke a war between the Arabs and Israel.

These organizations don't care whether Israel kills civilians, bomb infrastructure and surely Israel itself doesn't care. So what is the purpose of peace talks if at every moment in time an incident like this will occur ?
 
von Garvin said:
Don't attack the man, attack his post, which I felt was reasonable, though I didn't agree with it.
  I'am not attacking the man, just his way of thinking. I'am going over to Afgh. in 07 and his way of thinking is making me sick !
 
Out of curiosity, tamouh, what would your opinion be if the shoe was on the other foot?
 
tamouh said:
Lebanon has nothing to do with this, and that is what has been said since day 1. If Israel wants to go after Hezbollah after these attacks, they were welcome to do so......they'd at least save Lebanon the struggle to dismantle or merge Hezbollah. But No, Israel wants to make a show, lets the bomb the hell out of Lebanon so any nation in that region knows that if you hit Israel with any force, whether or not the people who hit Israel were acting on behalf of your government or not,  we'll bomb the s$## out of you.
Actually, the award for "Champion" should go to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for their Scorched Earth in 1941, including the evacuation of their industry.

As for the quote above, I think you perhaps misunderstood me.  Hezbollah was husbanding rockets and other weaponry in Lebanon.  Imagine if the "Michigan Militia" had training camps in Ontario, with the full knowledge of Mr. McGuinty (or however you spell that loser's name), and the Michigan Militia forayed across the St Clair river and captured two Michigan State Troopers and returned to Ontario.  Now, the OPP does nothing about this, and neither does Mr. McGuinty.  Michigan is totally upset, and they go after the Michigan Militia (in Ontario), but not only that, they also go after the OPP.  Being a former Upper Canadian, yeah, I'd be quite upset, but more so for Mr McGuinty for allowing those Michigan Militia freaks to do as they please in my province.
So, Lebanon, a sovereign nation with its own armed forces and police, do NOTHING about Hezbollah in the south of its land.  Perhaps they turned a blind eye.  Perhaps they were intimidated by Syria.  I don't care.  If they were getting picked on by Syria and Hezbollah, perhaps they could have gone to the US, or even Isreal, and said something to the effect "Listen, we've got these yard apes over here, doing stuff.  I think they want to fire some missiles your way.  We can't do anything about it, but they are located at grids 12569876 and 57439657.  Oh, we have no SAMs or forces in the area.  Please, feel free to go visit them".  Heck, Lebanon could have done this "under the table", lest they pee off Syria et al.  They could also have told Isreal, in advance, that they were going to lodge some useless complaint at the UN, but it was a total "wink wink, nudge nudge, know I mean, gov'ner?  Does she like photographs?  You know, Photos?  Taking pictures?" affair.  Instead, Lebanon did nothing, and sometimes doing nothing is a culpable act.
 
bilton090 said:
   I'am not attacking the man, just his way of thinking. I'am going over to Afgh. in 07 and his way of thinking is making me sick !
Fair enough.  It just wasn't clear to me, but then again, that's not saying much :D
 
I'am not attacking the man, just his way of thinking. I'am going over to Afgh. in 07 and his way of thinking is making me sick !

Congrats! Great for you.....I support you and many do on your missions. What that has to do with Israel ? Are you going to Afghanistan to defend Israel ????!!
 
tamouh said:
Are you going to Afghanistan to defend Israel ????!!
According to some weenies in the liberal media, they think so! (Stupid liberal medi! :threat:)
 
von Garvin : I understand your point. However, take into account, Lebanon has NO ARMY. Literally, Lebanon's army is more of a police force than an army. If Lebanese government wanted to dismantle Hezbollah by force, there will be one of these two outcomes: 1) Civli War (yet again!)  2) Hezbollah becomes the government.

The only way Lebanon could dismantle Hezbollah is by adopting it part of the armed forces, a scenario that doesn't happen overnight , especially in a country where everyone agress to disagree , ravaged by wars for 20 years and recently had its PM assassinated!
 
Re-opened. There are vastly opposing views on this subject. As long as they meet the conduct guidelines, people are allowed to post differing views.

Keep it civil, debate the points, NO personal attacks.

Army.ca Staff
 
tamouh said:
...
If Lebanese government wanted to dismantle Hezbollah by force, there will be one of these two outcomes: 1) Civli sic War (yet again!)  2) Hezbollah becomes the government.
...

I agree with you, tamouh.  Lebanon could not and cannot do what much of the world agrees needs doing: dismantle Hezbollah (and other terrorist groups, too).  If you accept, as I do, that Hezbollah is a terrorist group (despite its well advertised civic services), dedicated to genocide, then it and all of its members need to be neutralized.  (I prefer to use the simple, clear English word 'killed'.)  That, according to Stratfor (see article at http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/47644/post-415531.html#msg415531 above) might be what Israel is, now, intent upon doing.

According to Stratfor’s ‘guess’ the Israelis are bombing bridges and destroying infrastructure in order to isolate and starve (for food, replacements and weapons) the Hezbollah forces in South Lebanon.  Next they might drive a major attack up into the Hezbollah stronghold in the Bekaa Valley (accepting (perhaps even welcoming) the risk that Syria might attack) – the aim would be to use Israel’s overwhelming conventional military superiority, including the shock effect of fast, violent armoured/air attacks, to destroy Hezbollah’s bases there.  Finally the Israelis might use special forces and conventional infantry to seek out and kill most Hezbollah members who are ‘dug in’ (in homes, schools, and hospitals, etc) in almost every town and village.  This may require extensive bombing/artillery preparation of the targets with concomitant 'collateral damage.'

Why?

Again according to Stratfor, because Israel must remove the constant threat (more than a threat – it’s a fact) of deadly missile attacks on Israeli towns and cities, including Haifa.

Would any nation accept daily rocket and missile attacks on its towns and cities?  Should any nation accept such attacks?

Of course Lebanon can and should fight back, against Israel.  It is, after all, being attacked and invaded.  BUT: Lebanon is not innocent; it is complicit in Hezbollah’s aggressive war against Israel (aggressive war (against anyone) is, by the way, according to the Nuremberg Tribunals, a crime against peace) because it has allowed Hezbollah to use Lebanon as a base.  Lebanon (including its roads and bridges, factories and farms, and seaports and airports, too), therefore, is a legitimate target, it is reaping what it sowed.

While neither knowing nor caring who you are or where you are, I think you are a victim of Arab propaganda.  Israel’s actions seem, to me, logical and, as Prime Minister Harper suggested, measured.  Hezbollah, so long as it exists, will threaten the very existence of Israel – which is, according to the UN, entitled to exist, within secure borders, where it is, now: smack dab in the middle of the Umma.  Israel is entitled to defend itself – even if that might mean that a whole hockey sock full of Arabs are going to meet those 72 virgins in paradise in the very near future – destroying Hezbollah and its friends and protectors (even the unwilling ones) is a reasonable and measured defensive response to Hezbollah’s attacks.

Arabs who wish to live (period) ought to overthrow governments which advocate the destruction of Israel and kill sheiks and imans who peach the same.

This war is not making Israel any new friends but that is not very high on Israel's agenda.  Its response to Hezbollah's rocket attacks is violent and massive but it may be the only useful response.
 
tamouh said:
Or ohh.....let me see, Hezbollah is hiding their Zelzal-2 missiles in a bunker under the church!

Humm, let me see now, its over the news wire now that there has been a large cache of rockets, small arms and ammunition found in....guess now,...... as mosque in this captured vill.

Though they are not Zelzals, they are still rockets, and yes hidden in a house of worship. Who knows whats inside the ambulances which are running around town.

Kind of makes you wonder doesn't it.

As for Tamouh, as much as it really aggrivates me (beleive me he really does), we know he bats for the other side, and we'll just have to get used to his way of thinking, as maybe we can learn something from him.

As for having his type live and breath the same air as us in our beloved Canada, we'll have to get used to that too, there is many more than him who have come to Canada to live, who feel much more stronger than he does, and those are the dangerous ones. I find his way of thinking akin to a Canadian supporting the nazi's during the last war, so he does not go over too well with me, and this is not a personal attack on him either.

Cheers,

Wes
 
von Garvin said:
The thing that really bothers me about Western Society (in general) is that the philosophy of minimal force is so prevelant, that it may one day undo us all.  It is best represented (in my opinion) in pop-culture films, such as, yes, get ready for it, "Independance Day".  Think about it.  These really big frisbees have just wiped out New York City, Washington and Los Angeles, and they are getting ready to wipe out more cities.  What do the Americans do?  They send up a squadron or two of F18s with miniscule missiles.  Only after the President realises that they intend on exterminating man kind does he say "Nuke the bastards".  Now, this is just a movie, but think about it.  People even now in the media have said "just kidnap two Hezbollah and call it even".  Sorry, that doesn't do it.  Just imagine after 11 September, the US looking for some Al Qaeda sky scrapers to bring down, or Taliban Subways or Afghani Night clubs! 
So, Isreal has been attacked, soldiers captured, others killed.  All unprovoked.  What to do?  Hit back, and hit back HARD!  After all, if Isreal finds itself in a fair fight, then something has gone wrong.  After all, Hezbollah has only brought unguided rockets to a PGM* fight (*Precision Guided Munitions).  Good on the IDF to standing up!

Actually, it is even worse. In the movie "The American President", the Libyans have attacked and destroyed an American installation and killed American servicemen. The President (played by Michael Douglas) orders an attack against Libyan Intelligence HQ, but specifies the attack during the night when the fewest people are in the building. Rather than attack the ringleaders of the operation against the United States, the President is unleashing the power of the American Military against....the night shift janitor.

Although the inner circle of the Bush administration certainly does not think in this fashion, the MSM, the Democratic party and the left wing Blogosphere certainly does employ rather crude moral relativism (they killed one person at randon, so seeking and destroying the people who planned and executed this is a "disproportionate response".)

As a BTW, Hezbollah is represented in the Lebanese government, and received cooperation (even if just passive avoidance) of the Lebanese government, since the government has done nothing to stem the flow of arms from Syria via road and air (hence bombing bridges and the airport), nor carried out the UN resolution to disarm Hezbollah and occupy southern Lebanon to prevent these rocket attacks. As a BTW, the missile attack against the Israeli corvette required radar guidance, which needed to be provided by the Lebanese military, or have the Lebanese government turn a blind eye to the establishment of a radar unit on the shoreline. This is a substantial pile of kit, not an adapted hand held traffic radar unit.
 
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