Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty

[Kirkhill]

Because that doesn't even work very well in the more populous, southern part of our country

I agree it doesn't work. But it is one of those situations where it has to be made to work.

As to getting Regs to work in the North. Have you checked out the push back on getting people to accept postings to Cold Lake and Goose Bay? Or the glee with which my suggestion of a Field Force to defend the North Warning Sites were met?

What does the Army want? It seems to have a limited view of what its union card will permit.

 

[lenaitch]

It seems to me the definition of a colony is a place you are happy to exploit but can't imagine living there.

I spent the best part of a decade living two weeks on two weeks off visiting remote sites characterized by cold, rocks and ice. For that privilege I had to uproot the wife from Calgary and take her to Indiana. Not only didn't she see me she didn't see her family. And no government pension at the end.

As to tasking the Rangers... of course the Rangers should be tasked. To work alongside the Southerners. Remember those Rangers didn't ask to be in Resolute or Grise Fjord. All things considered I believe they would rather be in Kuujjuaq.


Grise Fjord and Eureka are unlikely to be much different than Akutan, Alaska.

Owning Canada is an expensive proposition that requires some effort. Not everything can be done from Wasaga Beach and the shores of Quinte.

I understand that. I was responding to the statement; "Just to show willing if nothing else". If a surveillance site needs to be in the far north for operational reasons, fair enough. If it should be up there for sovereignty reasons, that's something else.

I assumed perhaps incorrectly, that any new tech would allow for remote monitoring and that the Rangers could be utilized as a 'base security force', with additional training and organization. Any need for onsite operators, maintenance, etc., ya, I didn't figure that out.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It seems to me the definition of a colony is a place you are happy to exploit but can't imagine living there.

Unless you have the Bahamas, Malay, India in which case your administers and Officers don't want to leave.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I agree it doesn't work. But it is one of those situations where it has to be made to work.

As to getting Regs to work in the North. Have you checked out the push back on getting people to accept postings to Cold Lake and Goose Bay? Or the glee with which my suggestion of a Field Force to defend the North Warning Sites were met?

What does the Army want? It seems to have a limited view of what its union card will permit.

My ill informed idea would be to establish an 'Arctic Training Centre', probably somewhere in the Eastern Arctic like the Iqaluit area, with a permanent cadre of some kind that can manage the rotation of units attending various courses and live fire, and other combined arms, training year round.

Iqaluit has a huge all weather runway that could take strategic lift aircraft, which is handy if you need to project power anywhere in a hurry. It would also be an opportunity to invite the Yanks (e.g. 18 ABN DIV) from Alaska over for joint exercises in the high North.

This would give us a permanent ground based military presence, as well as Naval and Air coordination opportunities.

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

My ill informed idea would be to establish an 'Arctic Training Centre', probably somewhere in the Eastern Arctic like the Iqaluit area, with a permanent cadre of some kind that can manage the rotation of units attending various courses and live fire, and other combined arms, training year round.

Iqaluit has a huge all weather runway that could take strategic lift aircraft, which is handy if you need to project power anywhere in a hurry. It would also be an opportunity to invite the Yanks (e.g. 18 ABN DIV) from Alaska over for joint exercises in the high North.

This would give us a permanent ground based military presence, as well as Naval and Air coordination opportunities.

Resolute has an ATC Arctic Training Centre. However often we see footprint being limited due to land agreement between the federal government and Nunavut.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes, the scaled down ATC. Can confirm it is cold as F$$k there in Feb!

Ottawa opens scaled-back Arctic training facility in Nunavut’s Resolute Bay

Newspaper of record for Nunavut, and the Nunavik territory of Quebec

nunatsiaq.com

For comparison maybe?

THE ICE CURTAIN: RUSSIA’S ARCTIC MILITARY PRESENCE

In 2007 Russia re-prioritized the Arctic in keeping with Vladimir Putin's vision of restoring Russia's status as a great power. Now more than a decade later, Russia's military returns to the Arctic with strategic implications for the United States.

www.csis.org

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Yes, the scaled down ATC. Can confirm it is cold as F$$k there in Feb!

Ottawa opens scaled-back Arctic training facility in Nunavut’s Resolute Bay

Newspaper of record for Nunavut, and the Nunavik territory of Quebec

nunatsiaq.com

For comparison maybe?

THE ICE CURTAIN: RUSSIA’S ARCTIC MILITARY PRESENCE

In 2007 Russia re-prioritized the Arctic in keeping with Vladimir Putin's vision of restoring Russia's status as a great power. Now more than a decade later, Russia's military returns to the Arctic with strategic implications for the United States.

www.csis.org

Can also confirm cold as F$$k there in Feb.

Also, a really neat place where I learned alot. I thought I knew alot about living in cold weather from growing up on the prairies. The Arctic is a whole other level of hard, in the winter…

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes, the scaled down ATC. Can confirm it is cold as F$$k there in Feb!

Ottawa opens scaled-back Arctic training facility in Nunavut’s Resolute Bay

Newspaper of record for Nunavut, and the Nunavik territory of Quebec

nunatsiaq.com

For comparison maybe?

THE ICE CURTAIN: RUSSIA’S ARCTIC MILITARY PRESENCE

In 2007 Russia re-prioritized the Arctic in keeping with Vladimir Putin's vision of restoring Russia's status as a great power. Now more than a decade later, Russia's military returns to the Arctic with strategic implications for the United States.

www.csis.org

Or this

MyBestPlace - Longyearbyen, the city where no one dies

Longyearbyen is the most populated town of the Svalbard Islands. It is located on a remote and frozen archipelago of the Arctic Ocean, halfway between Norway and the North Pole, and is considered the

mybestplace.com

Transport to Longyearbyen on Svalbard. Stop if the ship looks familiar.

 

[Kirkhill]

How many divisions does Canada operate within the Arctic Circle?

How many can it get to Alaska or Finnmark?

Or Hans Island?

The Front has changed. We were facing West and contemplating an About Turn to the East. Now we are being expected to change front and reform on the left flank with the Americans on our new left and JEF on our new right.

We are being asked to hold fast in the centre, our home turf.

Our flanks are all heavily invested in anti missile defences and Northern mobility. And yes there are some tanks on the right flank, in position, but ATVs and air and sea mobility are more prevalent on both flanks.

How seriously will we be taken if we can't hold the centre?

The more meaningful takeaway that I got from the article was the idea that it doesn't necessarily make sense for every NATO member to try and emulate US military capabilities in miniature. Each nation could/should look at their own particular defence requirements and capabilities to try and come up with a force structure (and suite of equipment) which is both effective and sustainable for their own defence and can also be an effective contribution to the larger strategic defence goals of the alliance.

Any specific suggestions made by the author of the article to my mind undermine his general argument as obviously the defence requirements for each NATO member nation will be unique and therefor require unique solutions. Obviously the defence needs and alliance contributions that make sense for Estonia will be different than those of Montenegro.

For example, for Canada I think that commonality of equipment with the US makes total sense due to our physical proximity and the massive defence industry output of the US compared to our own. Is that the case for Romania? Does it make more sense for them to align their structure and equipment more in line with their near neighbours like Bulgaria, Hungary and Poland?

I'm simply saying that the author may have a point in suggesting that each member nation when looking at their defence capabilities should examine whether the the best option is augmenting the military capabilities of the US by generating forces which plug into the American model or if they can better contribute by providing capabilities that can complement US military capabilities.

Obviously these decisions shouldn't be made in isolation but rather in consultation with the alliance as a whole so that you don't just have nations saying "here's what we have...what can you do with it" but rather a logical examination of what each nation's strengths and weaknesses are and how those strengths can be leveraged and the weaknesses compensated for.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546638442691530759

Apparently it gets even better - the person making the claim is the incoming president of something called the Munich Security Conference. I am guessing it is the security counterpart to the WEF.





Apparently there has been a Great Turnaround. That might confound the concurrent Great Reset.

Zeitenwende for the G7

Die Sonderausgabe des Munich Security Index zeigt, dass der Krieg in der Ukraine die Risikowahrnehmung der Bevölkerungen in den G7-Staaten radikal verändert hat.

securityconference.org

And as a result there is now a Trans-Atlantic To Do list of a matter of urgency.

Building a Transatlantic To-Do List - Munich Security Conference

Die Münchner Sicherheitskonferenz (MSC) ist das weltweit führende Forum für Debatten zu den drängendsten internationalen Sicherheitsrisiken.

securityconference.org

Items of interest to Canada



1 Adaptation of NATO posture
2 EU-NATO and EU-US dialogue
3 2% of GDP on defence
7 Expand 5-Eyes Standard and intensify trans-Atlantic intelligence co-operation
11 Ratify CETA
14 Reduce dependency on autocratic states by diversifying strategic supply chains (Canadian Gas, Oil and Metallurgical Coal? - Uranium?)
18 Investment screening to secure critical infrastructure
23 Kleptocracy, corruption and illicit flows
24 Close loopholes in financial and legal services
25 Transparency of ownership of companies and real estate
26 Ban goods made from forced labour
33 Promote European energy diversification - build on EU-US LNG agreement (see item 14)
38 Recalibrate engagement on Arctic security, including in the Arctic Council (Canada member), to reflect new geopolitical realities
39 Foster trade and investment with Global South (Caribbean and The Commonwealth)
51 Global Alliance for Food Security (???)
56 Co-operate to make use of LNG more sustainable (Green LNG from Alberta, Sask, BC and Newf).
57 Agree on a common narrative on the strategic opportunities of climate adaptation and mitigation.




57 - We have an Epiphany!
New story!
Out with preventing climate change and David Suzuki!
In with adaptation and management and Bjorn Lomborg!
Now how to sell that and keep our phoney baloney jobs?

Trudeau has new marching orders.

Arctic Council Members

Canada

Denmark (Greenland and the Faeroes) - NATO & JEF
Iceland - NATO & JEF
Norway - NATO & JEF
Sweden - NATO & JEF
Finland - NATO & JEF

US - NORAD, NATO, NORTHCOM, ABM

Not Russia

The Arctic Council discussions are likely to change in tone and substance.

 

[Kirkhill]

I suggest we get as familiar with planning deployments to Kirkenes, Attu and Hans Island as we do with Strasbourg and Bonn.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

P8's to extend our surveillance of the Atlantic?

Kirkhill- I think you got Wrangell in the wrong place, it's in the lower Panhandle

 

[Kirkhill]

P8's to extend our surveillance of the Atlantic?

Kirkhill- I think you got Wrangell in the wrong place

Wrangel Island - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wrangell, Alaska - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looks like I got the spelling wrong - but I think it is in the right place.

 

[Kirkhill]

P8's to extend our surveillance of the Atlantic?

Kirkhill- I think you got Wrangell in the wrong place, it's in the lower Panhandle

And I think a fleet of Poseidons and Wedgetails would be both useful and appreciated.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Wrangel Island - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wrangell, Alaska - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Looks like I got the spelling wrong - but I think it is in the right place.

Now I see your intent

 

[Skysix]

Since we are going exclusively to be relying on F35's for arctic soverignity intercepts, we are going to need to upgrade Resolute with an FOL and reclaim the FOL at Inuvik for fighters, plus reclaim the Yellowknife and Iqaluit FOL's for maintenance and support and add 2 or 3 associated hangers for refuelers/AWACS.

Air Force considers removing co-pilot from Boeing KC-46 tanker crews

The idea could reduce potential troop casualties during wartime refueling missions.

www.militarytimes.com

Seems like the USAF are essentially saying "hey guys, I know we can't defend you, so we will fast-track promotions from SIC's to PIC's (to replace ongoing and future losses to the airlines that result from this decision) and hope you can do a few refills before you get blown out of the sky"

 

[Skysix]

I'm gonna take the liberty and inject a few facts on this thread, before it gets silly. Realising your post was in jest, Bert, there are a few points I'd like to mention.

First off, despite a reliance on commercial charters up here to zip our rangers to and fro, they're not gonna get used for soveringty patrols, ever.

Second, 440 (Transport) Squadron in Yellowknife has four (count 'em) four Twin Otter aircraft, and they're rarely all operational (hence the reliance on charters). I've been up here almost a year, and I think they had them all ready to fly ONCE, and they couldn't because they were short on FE's.

Third, as the CF does not have ice-capable vessels. Two (maybe it's three) Canadian Coast guard vessels are cabable of sailing as far north of Hans Island, but they're only in the area during the fall/winter to clear ice for cargo ships/cruise vessels.

Last, the exercise itself is nowhere near Hans Island. It's going to be based out of the Cumberland Peninsula, which is on Baffin Island, not Ellesmere. Hans Island is in the Robeson Channel, close to CFS Alert.

And a former 440 CO sold off the floats to pay for repairs to the now only ski and wheeled T'Wotters....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

And a former 440 CO sold off the floats to pay for repairs to the now only ski and wheeled T'Wotters....

Unreal, and to think not only could we trade in our old twotters and get new ones and support Canadian aviation industry at the same time. It would be such an easy win.

 

[Skysix]

What General Mackenzie said:

"In other words, get it on the record [so that] in the future, if we're challenged, we have a record of taking this issue seriously. It fulfills a purpose, it puts down a marker, and from a geopolitical point of view, it's certainly important."


Quite simply, it has to be done. If you claim territory, you better ensure you have the ability to patrol it.


Not that anyone is planning to invade our Arctic, but there are some disputes. The Dixon entrance with the US, a small island with Denmark. You can't back down. If we do, they'll start claiming more and more islands.

I'm happy we're doing it. I've been waiting for the CF to do this for awhile now.

Russia claiming an EEZ based on the continental shelf and encroaching far closer to Canada's claimed EEZ and territorial waters in order to be able to access the underwater resources is a definite reality. And in general conflicts over EEZ and territorial waters tend to split the difference and divide the disance in two. Which could easily see a decline in Canada'd claim to the arctic seafloor etc.

Long view vs political cycle thinking planning and investment etc.

 

[Skysix]

Unreal, and to think not only could we trade in our old twotters and get new ones and support Canadian aviation industry at the same time. It would be such an easy win.

Some former RCAF T'Wotters were sold off for budgetary reasons and are still flying with civilian operators in the north.

Budgets budgets budgets and short term stovepiped/silo'd thinking.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Unreal, and to think not only could we trade in our old twotters and get new ones and support Canadian aviation industry at the same time. It would be such an easy win.

Or bring back the Albatross

Grumman HU-16 Albatross​

The Royal Canadian Air Force operated Grumman Albatrosses with the designation "CSR-110".

Grumman HU-16 Albatross - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org