Damaged/Destroyed Vehicles

[blacktriangle]

I was just wondering something.

Now that more CF vehicles seem to be getting banged up in Afghanistan, does anyone know if the CF buys new vehicles to replace heavily damaged and destroyed equipment? I am speaking mostly of LAV's and G wagons since they seem to take the brunt of it over there. Can most cases be fixed, or are vehicles wrote off without any replacement?

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

The short answer:  there's no mechanism to purchase replacements for vehicles and/or equipment lost overseas.  Instead, these are typically sent from stocks in Canada.

 

[Timmy!]

Just more space parts for the Veh Techs to play with.

 

[McG]

... are vehicles wrote off without any replacement?

Yep.  Replacement vehicles can be sent from Canada, but the national inventory is reduced.

We could buy more, but that is a decision the government (and not the military) would have to make.

 

[FoverF]

I know that in the air force aircraft which have been essentially destroyed (by any reasonable estimate) are often 'repaired' (built just about from scratch with the same data-plate).

I have a buddy who said they used to 'repair' Kiowas, essentially from scratch, on a fairly regular basis, at a cost several times greater than the purchase price of a new one.

This brings up the point that a peice of equipment is 'worth' whatever you're willing to pay for it. Someone in the CF was obviously willing to pay several million dollars for a machine that could be purchased new for less than half a mil... IF they were allowed to purchase it new.
But it seems they WERE allowed to spend essentially as much as they needed to fix one....
Not a particularily efficient way to get attrition replacements, but you gotta do what you gotta do within the limits set by the gov.

 

[Wookilar]

Every piece of equipment, whether it be a veh, weapon or what have you, has a limit (dollar wise). Right now at this ungodly hour, I can not think of the proper term for it. Once that limit is reached, it is generally scraped because it is no longer feasible to keep repairing it. Essentially, to buy a new one would be cheaper. Authorization to "repair" said item can be given (a particular 1954 20 KW skid mounted generator comes to mind) by higher, but is usually only done if there is no chance of replacement or there are other extenuating circumstances.

 

[geo]

as far as I know, there hasn't been a LAV that's been banged up beyond the possibility of repair. The one that got banged up by 2 RPGs had a wheel blown off - repairable. The ones that have rolled over might need some fixin WRT the turret & external bits but, vehicles nailed by IEDs have all been GWagons / commercialish pattern vehicles.
While some GWagons are beyond the possibility of repair, at least they are "currently available from Benz production" should the need arise

 

[George Wallace]

.........but, vehicles nailed by IEDs have all been GWagons / commercialish pattern vehicles.
While some GWagons are beyond the possibility of repair, at least they are "currently available from Benz production" should the need arise

This is the problem.  If we originally bought.....say 50, and have lost 10, that leaves us having to replace those 10 with vehicles from Units in Canada.  This is a loss of vehs in Theatre and our Fleet now 10 less, with Units in Canada having to do without as they send their vehs over as replacements.  There is no program to purchase 10 more to replace loses. 

We see it with all our major equipment purchases.  The minimum number are bought, with no thought of a reserve or pool for Operational use.  If any pieces of equipment are lost on a deployment, the whole CF must now do without.  In many cases there is not even a "Bandaid Solution" to the problem, just "You will now do without".

If I remember correctly, the GWagen was originally to be for the Reserves and now they have been short changed by this lack of foresight and policy.

 

[Timmy!]

as far as I know, there hasn't been a LAV that's been banged up beyond the possibility of repair. The one that got banged up by 2 RPGs had a wheel blown off - repairable. The ones that have rolled over might need some fixin WRT the turret & external bits but, vehicles nailed by IEDs have all been GWagons / commercialish pattern vehicles.
While some GWagons are beyond the possibility of repair, at least they are "currently available from Benz production" should the need arise

Are these Benz still cover under their warrentry? Hmm..

 

[dapaterson]

We see it with all our major equipment purchases.  The minimum number are bought, with no thought of a reserve or pool for Operational use.  If any pieces of equipment are lost on a deployment, the whole CF must now do without.  In many cases there is not even a "Bandaid Solution" to the problem, just "You will now do without".

If I remember correctly, the GWagen was originally to be for the Reserves and now they have been short changed by this lack of foresight and policy.

There are limited Log stocks included in purchases, but the trend of late has been to minimize those holdings.

The LUVW was never intended as a "reserve-only" purchase.  A quantity of GWagens was designated for Reserve Armd units; this quantity was later increased.  The full delivery is not yet complete - we are continuing to accept delivery of vehicles; I beleive that the scheduled end of delivery is this summer / early fall.  After they are delivered, there is some acceptance testing and fuinally delivery to units.  While the fielding plan has undergone numerous changes to meet operational demands, there has been no plan to reduce allocations to reserve units.

 

[George Wallace]

The LUVW was never intended as a "reserve-only" purchase.  A quantity of GWagens was designated for Reserve Armd units; this quantity was later increased.  The full delivery is not yet complete - we are continuing to accept delivery of vehicles; I beleive that the scheduled end of delivery is this summer / early fall.  After they are delivered, there is some acceptance testing and fuinally delivery to units.  While the fielding plan has undergone numerous changes to meet operational demands, there has been no plan to reduce allocations to reserve units.

I hope not.  Many Reservists still hold fond memories of the Bison issue.  :

 

[McG]

... vehicles nailed by IEDs have all been GWagons / commercialish pattern vehicles.  ...

You'd best go back through news papers of the last two months.  You'll find your information to be incorrect a few times over.

 

[dynaglide]

Every piece of equipment, whether it be a veh, weapon or what have you, has a limit (dollar wise). Right now at this ungodly hour, I can not think of the proper term for it. Once that limit is reached, it is generally scraped because it is no longer feasible to keep repairing it. Essentially, to buy a new one would be cheaper. Authorization to "repair" said item can be given (a particular 1954 20 KW skid mounted generator comes to mind) by higher, but is usually only done if there is no chance of replacement or there are other extenuating circumstances.

I believe the term is "BER" or Beyond Economical Repair.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

The LUVW was never intended as a "reserve-only" purchase.  A quantity of GWagens was designated for Reserve Armd units; this quantity was later increased.

Just a quick interjection, then I'll be on my way.

I was on the Army Equipment Board when the G Wagon purchase was first finalized, so was involved in the various procurement discussions.

The initial LUVW project consisted of two parts:  the G Wagon, for the Regular Force only, and MILCOTS for the Reserve Force only.  NO G Wagons were intended for the Reserves and the entire Reserve Iltis fleet was to be replaced (not one for one) by MILCOTS.  Armoured Recce was initially offered something like a Suburban with a C-6 (I'm not kidding), although that didn't see the light of day.  Cougars were kept around a bit longer as a solution was worked out.

Cooler heads eventually prevailed and the G Wagon C&R (C&R was initially intended for Regular Infantry Recce platoons) contract was extended to allow for the purchase of sufficient vehicles for Armoured Recce units.

 

[geo]

You'd best go back through news papers of the last two months.  You'll find your information to be incorrect a few times over.

if you go back to my original post, I do make mention of LAVs - but most all of those were involved in traffic mishaps & with work on turret and the bits that stick out, those should not be BLR.

 

[Wookilar]

To repair a piece of equipment that is fairly new, and has the correspondingly large parts stock in the system (such as the LAV III) is easy shmeasy. According to sources closer to the ground than I (fellow grease-monkeys), G Wagon parts are also in good supply. Bits and grapple grommets are very rarely a problem. Turret baskets, grenade launchers, even barrels or entire actions, mirrors, lights (etc.) are all relatively easy to get and in stock.

The problem is, just like George says, that once a vehicle (say a sparkly new G Wagon) sustains a major bit of damage to the framing or body, there is bugger-all the various mechs can do (I know many genius Mat Techs, but it is difficult to weld together charred scrap) and there is currently, that I know of, no system in place to replace that vehicle. It gets removed from Plan Ex and the FMS, and no longer exists. It will just sit out back and slowly get stripped of parts ...I mean the damage report may change over time as more defects are found  ;D That may not be a problem now, but in 5-10 years (or sooner, depending on how many take a beating) the strain on the fleet will be huge and the powers that be will have to start reallocating vehicles, CF wide.

And when I'm the lucky dog being the "young" TO in 1 Special Viper Commando telling the CO that we just don't have a G Wagon for him and the DCO to tool around in on EX (being hard-core, of course, as only the SVC BN's can be) because too many got blowed up across the water (or Wainwright, whichever applies), I'm not going to be having a good day.

 

[Timex]

One of the major factors to consider when a veh, or any other piece of kit is BER'd is availability of replacements. Sure it is possble for the Big Giant Heads to  order 12 more G Wagons because the production line is still active, but with the current armoured fleet it's different. The production lines for LAV and Bison have moved on. To retool the production line for a handful of replacements would be so expensive that paying up to 2 or 3 times the original purchase price to repair it suddenly becomes more attractive. As for our current collection of vehs that have sustained accident and blast damage, and there are some, they will be completely overhauled and sent back into the fight.

Arte et Marte

 

[silentbutdeadly]

geo,

just so your informed a Lav and Bison were hit directly with IED's , the Lav being about about 25 feet or more in front of me and the bison about a few hundred metres and well we are short one Lav in our platoon and will never see another again as we are told and thats the norm for the repairs in KAF.

 

[geo]

SBD, thanks for the info.
LFQA isn't sending troops out your way for a while yet so vehicle losses aren't tracked closely over here (for now).

 

[Sgt.Cormier4Life]

Yeah that's a good question? It seems all that is flipping and getting damaged are the LAV III's, think we need to upgrade the maintenance on the armour?