CS and batons for private security?

[Dox]

I'm undercover no vest no radio no back up

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I work as a LPO and I can't even count the amount of times I wished for a ASP, not much fun trying to arrest someone that isn't worried about carrying illegal weapons. People have tried to stab me and tazer me and all I get is a pair of cuffs and some slash proof gloves.

Dude, at such time as some clown pulls out so much as a sharpened popsicle stick, let them go!  Get a good description, direction of travel and go home at the end of your shift. 

 

[Dox]

We do let them go Zipper, unfortunately I have found myself in a few situations where they didn't just take off like I hoped. Where I was almost tazed I Had been forced to take the suspect to the ground But had done it in such a way as to be able to keep a eye on his partner, I didn't count on the 3rd guy jumping me from behind. This was all within a few feet of the entrance of where I was working. Next thing I know I'm in a huge fight to try to let them go however they seemed to feel that being let go was not good enough and that I needed to be beaten first so while struggling to get away from 2 opponents I see the 3rd coming in with the tazer fortunately before he had a chance to get me passersby finally started shouting and they took off at which point I called 911 for police and a ambulance.

 

[Dox]

For the record I don't want a baton so I can go around "wacking badguys" I would like one as more of a " hey! you have a knife, I have a big stick, Please feel free to run away now!"

 

[rz350]

I get whatever I personally buy.

On a side note, private security officers do have guns, but they work for brinks and securicor. They've not seemed to have too many accidents, but they are forced to be trained to a very high standard.

Perhaps somthing similar with batons and OC for non money transporting private security?

 

[Nug]

Just a little clarification, guards at armoured car companies are not considered security guards because they don't have security guards licence. But there are some security companies that provide armed guards for special events or purposes.

 

[rz350]

Still, its the same sort of work, Holding one self out for hire to protect persons or property.

But I do see what you mean, its not in the PISGA its some other act.

 

[Nug]

Mind you even though we're not  security guards. there is some question as to wether we will have to take the mandatory security guard training being developed for Manitoba.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

For the record I don't want a baton so I can go around "wacking badguys" I would like one as more of a " hey! you have a knife, I have a big stick, Please feel free to run away now!"

Please stop now!!!

If your baton is the top of your force loop than YOU had better get away when a sharp-edged weapon comes out.

Debilitating close weapon against a deadly force close weapon = loser.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Bruce, I'm afraid that this is one that will come under the heading of "Lessons Learned".  :-\
Suffice it to say that many fully armed and fully trained LEO's have been wounded or killed by knife wielding attackers.  You are giving your 26" metal tube far too much credit for effectiveness.

 

[The_Falcon]

Still, its the same sort of work, Holding one self out for hire to protect persons or property.

But I do see what you mean, its not in the PISGA its some other act.

Its not the same line of work.  Brinks et al are COURIER companies (that specialize in transport materials with a high monetary value, they are no different than UPS or Fedex), not SECURITY (they are specifically exempted from licensing in both the old act and the new one, because they do not provide security services as their MAIN service, which is the key component).  The employees are armed to protect THEMSELVES (for the most part, basically can't use the firearm as a police officer would) not their cargo. The regulations that govern the armoured car industry (for the most part) are set down be each provincial Chief Firearms Officer, and the Federal Firearms Act.

As well when security officers are authorized to carry firearms, it is under the same conditions as a regular armoured courier service employee, and they can only carry it when they are performing the task they were authorised for (ie cash escort).  Once they have completed that specific task, they can no longer carry the firearm on them. 

 

[MPIKE]

For the record I don't want a baton so I can go around "wacking badguys" I would like one as more of a " hey! you have a knife, I have a big stick, Please feel free to run away now!"

and you will hear from the rat (tries best Croc Dundee accent) "that's not a knife..This IS a Knife!!"

Dox Dox Dox.. :tsktsk:

Just when this thread is righted up on the correct path of common sense another post comes along negating the 'think before you post' rule.. I can not let you think this statement is acceptable or even by chance having a lurker read it and think 'hey that's a good idea' ..

Knives= :skull: bad day at the office! and it's this attitude that get's you killed.

As Zipper and Bruce have already commented here is a visual aid illustrating what they are trying to tell you before you experience the Lesson Learned phase.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853&q=knife+fighting

**Pay special attention to 6:55  into the vid and the 3 Rules provided.  It is something that has been said throughout this thread by Zipper and myself.  We are not talking out of A$$es here.  I can't be anymore blunt...

Stop tryin to be heroes.  Be good witnesses! 



 

 

[Dox]

Still missing the point It is very easy to say "just let them go" As I stated I have found myself in more than one situation where a suspect just would not let me let them go. I have released the suspect I'm trying to back away I have removed myself from the suspects flight path and yet instead of fleeing the suspect (sometimes more than one) advances on me intent on causing me bodily harm because he is drunk or drugged up or just pissed off. The bad guys are getting more and more violent and more and more are carrying weapons because they know the justice system is a joke and they are just going to get a slap on the wrist, Meanwhile I get to spend hours in the hospital and miss work due to people I was trying to let go. I firmly believe that a properly trained LPO or SO should be allowed to carry more than a pair off handcuffs for when they find themselves In a situation where their lives are in danger from a person or persons that just won't let you back off. As it stands now if I find myself in a situation such as this the top of my force loop is Hand to hand and harsh words. I also fail to see how the attitude of preferring a weapon wielding suspect would just run away is the wrong one to have.

 

[Nug]

Well I would hope the issue and use of pepper spray/batons will be solved for us. I would hope that when the provinces change the rules governing security guards and if they allow the use of this equipment a proper use use of force policy for the guards will be put in place. It should be noted that a use of force continuem is only a guide and that you are still governed ultimately by the criminal code.

Hatchet +1. sometimes when we get new guys you have to explain to them that just because we wear a uniform and carry a firearm that doesn't make us cops. Its our job to avoid a fight not get in one.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Dox,
For the same reason that I don't carry anything but my brains when I walk among my dormitory of 50+ inmates. When your outnumbered and/or ambushed your weapon very quickly becomes their weapon.

 

[Dox]

I would assume the inmates are slightly less likely to attack you then someone I'm trying to arrest as well I assume you are not all alone with no hope of immediate assistance as I am. Being that they are both very different situations We will not agree on this you are looking at it from your situation I'm looking at it from mine . How do you feel about when Corrections Canada was saying that CO's shouldn't get to wear Stab vests because it would cause a Hostile environment and upset the inmates? Seems to me that a great many Co's spent alot of time fighting for the right to use a item that may potentially save their life one day. I doubt very much many people went around essentially telling them they are stupid for wanting a better way to protect themselves.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I would assume the inmates are slightly less likely to attack you then someone I'm trying to arrest as well I assume you are not all alone with no hope of immediate assistance as I am. Being that they are both very different situations We will not agree on this you are looking at it from your situation I'm looking at it from mine . How do you feel about when Corrections Canada was saying that CO's shouldn't get to wear Stab vests because it would cause a Hostile environment and upset the inmates? Seems to me that a great many Co's spent alot of time fighting for the right to use a item that may potentially save their life one day. I doubt very much many people went around essentially telling them they are stupid for wanting a better way to protect themselves.

I imagine that at such time a CO gets his vest torn off and gets beaten with it they will lose them.  :

 

[Dox]

I imagine that at such time a CO gets his vest torn off and gets beaten with it they will lose them.  :

Most likely But last I heard they still were not allowed to even have them. Because a bunch of people don't want Inmates to feel bad. And by that argument Police should have their guns taken away? There Have be a number of incidents of officers being shot with their own weapons.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Even with a vest as soon as a sharp-edged weapon appears [unless of course there is danger to the public] than NOTHING else matters but mine and my co-workers escape route.......

 

[Dox]

Even with a vest as soon as a sharp-edged weapon appears [unless of course there is danger to the public] than NOTHING else matters but mine and my co-workers escape route.......

And when your escape route is blocked?