CS and batons for private security?

[The_Falcon]

Or if you have different brands, have the officer place his cuffs on the perp while the perp is still wearing your bracelets.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Or if you have different brands, have the officer place his cuffs on the perp while the perp is still wearing your bracelets.

That's what I meant. 

 

[Thompson_JM]

When I worked In-House at the Courtyard Marriott Downtown T.O. I went out and purchased a set of the new ASP Steel/Polymer Cuffs. nice piece of kit to have. key holes on both sides, easy mech for double locking, and so ergonomic that it was actually comfortable to wear them around the wrist... (not like i care about the shitbag, but hey... its all about liability these days...) thankfully i only had to make two arrests in the 6 months i was there, and only one of them required force. (all empty handed techs.) 

if there is one thing I personally believe and have learned from my experiences, is that I will never go back to Private Security... its not worth the liability.... its not worth being dressed like a cop, but having minimal training, and no backup if you get taken to court. If im gonna start making arrests and having to use force im going to do it once im a cop, or when i have some sort of agency covering my arse with regards to training, and liability.... since looking back im pretty sure my hotel would have probably left me hanging in the wind had anything bad arisen out of those arrests....

but that's just my .02

 

[Wolfmann]

CS gas is silly...even pepperspray is silly, to some extent, but the expandable baton may not be a bad idea. It's not just a grab and smash sort of weapon, but can also be used to gain leverage, access pressure points and basically is like a big, over-sized kubaton.

I still wouldn't recommend it for "Event Staff". For private security officers, that have received sufficient training, it is an invaluable tool. But Event Staff tend to be confronted with large masses of people, and their only real job is to protect the Talent, Promotoers, and other event staff from harm. Their effectiveness in a riot, or in actual fight goes down significantly that having an expandable baton may be redundant - chances are you'll forget about it, lose it, or someone will take it off your belt. Plus having it in your pocket could also make it now a "concealed weapon"...too much liability.

If you want to carry an expandable baton, or feel your line of work has some unnecessary risks...than change jobs.

 

[Wolfmann]

To correct my post about arrest and use of force.

You where Sig_op it is section 25 that gives use of force, and sec 494 that gives private arrest powers.


  Section 494

Arrest without warrant by any person
494. (1) Any one may arrest without warrant

(a) a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence; or

(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes

(i) has committed a criminal offence, and

(ii) is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person.

Arrest by owner, etc., of property
(2) Any one who is

(a) the owner or a person in lawful possession of property, or

(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of property,

may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.

Delivery to peace officer
(3) Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.



Section 25


Protection of persons acting under authority
25. (1) Every one who is required or authorized by law to do anything in the administration or enforcement of the law

(a) as a private person,

(b) as a peace officer or public officer,

(c) in aid of a peace officer or public officer, or

(d) by virtue of his office,

is, if he acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what he is required or authorized to do and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose.


sec 494 provides the authorization to engage in the enforcement of the law that sec 25 requires.

Just because it is authorized, and legal, doe not mean you should do it. There are a lot of items to consider when you make the decision to use force to either protect yourself, protect someone else, to protect your property, or to effect your powers of arrest.

There's no turning back if you're wrong, go too far, or get out numbered or just plain put in the hospital.

 

[Wolfmann]

I would rather like to see the emphasis be put on Private Security to become good witnesses.  Are there instances where they could use this equipment? sure.  But a cellphone or comms to call 911 is just as effective.  The security field is largely unregulated and are not held to a standard that would warrant the use of those options.  UofF options comes with a boat load of responsibility.

85% of the industry is simply there to warm a seat, and keep an insurance requirement happy. It's unfortunately, but there are also competing interests within the government and law enforcement circles that do not allow private security to move forward. In one hand Private Security shoots itself in the foot by being commercially based and thus competitive, and in the other it can't even get out of the gate because their presence threatens main stream police and law enforcement agencies who see certain areas clearly as "THEIR TURF". If that's not bad enough, the main stream public that hires them is, well...cheap.

Few realize that police services started out a hundred years ago or more out of a need for neighborhood security, and effectively were private security in areas where MIlitia could not patrol, or would not patrol. And it morphed, and changed, and progressed.

There needs to be major reforms in how we approach private security in this country.

If a situation escalates to where you need to use that equipment it is probably a matter that the police should be involved in anyhow. 

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that...I've been in plenty of situations where police attendance was a formality of process. Every situation is unique, and you affect officer safety if you limit their Use of Force response options when presented with situations which they  may not voluntarily enter, but are forced. Look at MLEO's in Toronto that get stabbed, hit, and abused...one even shot at...and that's a friggin' parking ticket.

Now imagine a private security officer finds a crackhead and a vagrant smoking elicit drugs in a stairwell, one of them is an ex-con, and in the process of carrying out his duty the ex-con decides he doesn't want to go back to jail...the officer may not know this, feels he is dealing with a simple trespassing issue for which he/she was placed there...now the fight is on, and the officer is seriously hurt or injured in a situation which he/she could not retreat, or back out yet all he had was a note book and pen.

These situations are not the exception to the rule, they happen regularly. Private Security are doing the jobs that police officers cannot or will not do, and private property owners are hiring them for these very reasons.

Also you as security have to weigh the importance of the situation. If it is a property related offence it is probably not worth sacrificing yourself.  Standback, be a good witness and gather the facts for a good conviction.

Well said, and effective for most situations. However, that is not the purpose for which some security are placed.

I'm all for mandating specific, minimum standards of qualifications for private security...even if you have different levels of qualication, such as what British Columbia and California have, that's okay. As long as there is some sort of forced standard.

Private Security can be an effective partner in law enforcement activities...but it's shot in the foot by it's own industry, and by competiting government interests. I place the fault at both the government, but mostly the bureaucrats that make up private security company management, and the cheap public sector that employs them without demanding any sort of given standard.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

and in the other it can't even get out of the gate because their presence threatens main stream police and law enforcement agencies who see certain areas clearly as "THEIR TURF".

Okay, our "turf" is the public trust.  We are sworn to uphold that trust.  You are protecting a piece of private property.  Observe, report.  That's it.  That's all you need to do.  The only reason police don't want to see security guards getting more latitude is just for this reason.  Some people feel they serve some higher purpose, when in fact the place that hired them is just looking for a percentage discount on their insurance. 

Few realize that police services started out a hundred years ago or more out of a need for neighborhood security, and effectively were private security in areas where MIlitia could not patrol, or would not patrol. And it morphed, and changed, and progressed.

If the private security industry wants to become more professional and get better training for itself, then go for it.  Just don't be under the illusion that just because you have the training means you should use the training. 

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that...I've been in plenty of situations where police attendance was a formality of process.

LIKE WHAT???  You are obliged to turn over anyone you arrest to a police officer.  If you are doing your own arrest and releases, you are begging to be sued, or even charged with assault.

Every situation is unique, and you affect officer safety if you limit their Use of Force response options when presented with situations which they  may not voluntarily enter, but are forced. Look at MLEO's in Toronto that get stabbed, hit, and abused...one even shot at...and that's a friggin' parking ticket.

But those officers work for the City, not private security. 

Now imagine a private security officer finds a crackhead and a vagrant smoking elicit drugs in a stairwell, one of them is an ex-con, and in the process of carrying out his duty the ex-con decides he doesn't want to go back to jail...the officer may not know this, feels he is dealing with a simple trespassing issue for which he/she was placed there...now the fight is on, and the officer is seriously hurt or injured in a situation which he/she could not retreat, or back out yet all he had was a note book and pen.

So why in the Christ would some lone guard try to arrest two people anyway?  And you think a metal stick is going to save your ass if two motivated guys take after you?  I hope you don't get to find out how wrong you are by living the lesson.  A lone police officer would not try that.  And any police officer knows to always have an exit strategy if things go to the dump, regardless of equipment.  What do you think this is?  Legolas and Gimli on the ramp into Helms Deep?  :  Two glorious guards smashing away at the advancing hordes of shambling crackheads in a stairwell?  A little more reality, less Doom 3. 
However, you do illuminate a problem in that if a security guard has a uniform that is pretty much identical to that of a police officer, equipment belt, cargo pants and such, that may put them in harms way when a drugged out idiot thinks he has to fight his was from an actual LEO. 

These situations are not the exception to the rule, they happen regularly. Private Security are doing the jobs that police officers cannot or will not do, and private property owners are hiring them for these very reasons.

So illuminate what aspect of law enforcement you feel the police will not do? 

Private Security can be an effective partner in law enforcement activities...but it's shot in the foot by it's own industry, and by competiting government interests. I place the fault at both the government, but mostly the bureaucrats that make up private security company management, and the cheap public sector that employs them without demanding any sort of given standard.

What competing government interests?  There are precious few funds for law enforcement these days, and Forces everywhere are hurting for numbers.  If security want to expand and stick a guy on every factory and car lot in Ontario, then great.  Go for it. 
As far as the "cheap public sector" that is the point.  They get what they are paying for.  So don't do more than you are being paid for. 
Wolf, perhaps you are getting a little too caught up in the "what if" fantasies that tend to circulate in the private security profession.  Try to take it easy, and just get through your shifts safe.

 

[MPIKE]

Zipper, +1 on your points.. again hats off to your style. Helmsdeep.. LMAO

Wolf,
Your last comments come off a little condescending or maybe with an arrogant tone but this afterall is in cyberspace.
So I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, I too, am not a "what if"  or "Last year at Band camp" guy.. So let's keep this factual and in the real realm.

No one on the security side of this thread has shown a base knowledge of UofF application to warrant allowing them access to these options.  As I stated earlier, with these options comes a boat load of responsibility also an understanding of the UofF continuum. There are a few that vary province to province but I will refer to the one I know best being Ontario.  In this continuum, it was updated to reflect Disengagment and Tac Comm throughout.  Something, I think the untrained seldom consider based on my experiences.  Many situations are escalated by the application of force rather than the rat in the stairwell and this is something that comprimises personal safety and liability.
 

Now imagine a private security officer finds a crackhead and a vagrant smoking elicit drugs in a stairwell, one of them is an ex-con, and in the process of carrying out his duty the ex-con decides he doesn't want to go back to jail...the officer may not know this, feels he is dealing with a simple trespassing issue for which he/she was placed there...now the fight is on, and the officer is seriously hurt or injured in a situation which he/she could not retreat, or back out yet all he had was a note book and pen.

I don't need to imagine to much as I work on "your" turf.  : Looking at this scenario , (classic what-if) the first thing comes to mind is what authority you are dealing with and it is JUST a POA matter... Vagrancy is no longer an offence and CDSA matters aren't your scope all you are left with trespassing..so I will ask why are you putting yourself in this situation???.  Engage in Prohib Activity, TPA has you going toe to toe with not just a vagrant but an ex-con as well??...Come on..  Clearly, experience and training would have you handle this entirely differently. (trust us)  message throughout is keep it in perspective!

author=PIKER link=topic=47119/post-410125#msg410125 date=1152651263] Standback, be a good witness and gather the facts for a good conviction.

I should clarify that when I said "Standback" that was not a suggestion to neglect your duties.  But it was in reference to gathering evidence for a conviction or assist in providing the lawful grounds for a  quality criminal arrest investigation. Something that I don't think is stressed enough given the number of one paragraph statements and security reports I have received. 

Security has these options available to them already in a Call for Service to their nearest Police Agency..  Before, the flaming begins , I understand that the security has very difficult job and there are dangers that arise from your line of work.  The LEO perspective here is meant as constructive as we  are held to task daily for this equipments use and implementation.  "Stand in the box" (aka testifying) a few times and you will know where we are coming from...

 

[zipperhead_cop]

+1 Piker

To add to that, I can certainly speak for my area when I say that when a call comes in that a security officer or loss prevention floor walker is chasing or fighting with someone, we tear ass to the call just as though it was one of our own.  I have also helped more than a few guys write reports to cover their asses when it came time to articulate their use of force.  We support security to the best of our abilities.  And we have gotten some great info from the private sector, particularly with the Casino surveillance guys and their wicked cameras. 
Nobody is conspiring against the security industry.  We want to see you guys get home at the end of your shifts, just like us.  But your safety is still our responsibility, regardless.

 

[new_armoured_trooper]

I apologize if this seems to derail this thread, but i just wanted to add something to my posts from earlier, especially in regard to illegal weapons being used by the Company i was, and no longer am, working for. They did continue to carry CS spray and Baton though they were apparently fully aware of the legalities concerned with this, and when i questioned it, i was told "Well if your using that spray and someone charges you, we wont  back you up in court".

I was then advised i was no longer employed there, which i dont mind, I have found other work i enjoy much more, though i wanted to mention that the company is now under investigation for extreme misuse of government funding, in the form of a very large grant from the government of Ontario.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I apologize if this seems to derail this thread, but i just wanted to add something to my posts from earlier, especially in regard to illegal weapons being used by the Company i was, and no longer am, working for. They did continue to carry CS spray and Baton though they were apparently fully aware of the legalities concerned with this, and when i questioned it, i was told "Well if your using that spray and someone charges you, we wont  back you up in court".

I was then advised i was no longer employed there, which i dont mind, I have found other work i enjoy much more, though i wanted to mention that the company is now under investigation for extreme misuse of government funding, in the form of a very large grant from the government of Ontario.

Looks like you got out just in time.  Good luck with your new endeavours. 

 

[rz350]

Tomorrow I'm going back into Loss Prevention (I had done it before, then went to events, now going back to LP) Hopfully all goes smoothly and theres no need for anyone to tear ***. But if it turns into a Mongolian Cluster **** I know I can count on a fast response. (But still it would be more comforting with a baton...but that can wait til after the new regs and training)

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I think I said it earlier, but I really have never been impressed with the batons for striking.  If you can't fight it out with your bare hands, think exit strategy. 

 

[rz350]

I can fight with my bare hands, and its worked quite well actually. But of course before going into any confrontation (even so much as asking someone to leave) I make sure I am not into a corner/locked hallway/ect, that I can get away if need be. Thanks for the advice tho.

 

[Thompson_JM]

I can fight with my bare hands, and its worked quite well actually. But of course before going into any confrontation (even so much as asking someone to leave) I make sure I am not into a corner/locked hallway/ect, that I can get away if need be. Thanks for the advice tho.

Exit Strategy Mucho Important.... also Mucho Important is having Comms... always always ALWAYS have Communication with someone... ie Manager, Dispatch etc... that way, if things go south, someone knows what your up to... The old company I worked for( a nameless K9 Security Company from hamilton who liked to dress there Guards like LEO's but give us NO training, unless we paid out of our own pocket... ) never gave site guards Mobile Radios, or Mike Phones or anything... they expected us to own cell phones and call in on our own dime to report in and out for shift, and if there was a problem to call in... if i ran into trouble (which i did at one site) my own personal system was call 911 first, and then when i have the time, I would call the Dispatch to give a SITREP. since i knew 5-0 would get there alot quicker then my former companies Mobile Patrol would......

Private Security isnt the worst job in the world, just remember, as a guard, watch your back, cause no one else will.... your company will cover itself first, and then cover you.... meaning if they have to hang someone out to dry, its gonna be you, not a manager... 

*This is my experiance working Low Level Private Security, low level meaning uniform and plain clothes LP and General Patrol*

 

[rz350]

Comm is very important! Tho I do not always get it. *sigh* it depends on the site.

I know what you mean about leaving you to dry. I don't think its all management, some of my co-workers from the rank and file are pretty shameful when it comes to helping a fellow guard out.

 

[portcullisguy]

Security officers should definitely be equipped with use of force protective tools.

Reasonably, this could include batons and OC spray.  However, like with all use of force tools, this must come with comprehensive training.

Sadly, this does not even happen all the time in public law enforcement.  Perhaps the police religiously stick to their annual refresher training, but it's been nearly three years' since I qualified with my baton and OC spray.  This represents a huge civil liability, in my opinion.  Private industry would likely have to meet or exceed the very strict standards for training and follow-up refreshers, which brings the costs up.  And then it stops being economical for the clients.

In most cases, during my five years' working in security, a baton/spray would have done me no good.  I have not had to use them in my present public law enforcement capacity, and I've had plenty of opportunity, including several violent or potentially-violent arrests.  In my experience, officer presence goes a long way.

That said, when the going gets rough, disengage and get more help.

Even when I worked for one of the more hard-core Toronto security firms, we had to think before we acted, lest we end up with a trip to the hospital and/or jail.

Put simply, a baton is for actively resisting aggressors.  OC spray is for actively to combative resisting aggressors.  But neither tool is appropriate in all situations.

As it stands, the OC spray is illegal for private citizens.  The baton is not.  But great care and judgement must be used in employing either, in order to mitigate civil and criminal responsibility, even when defending yourself.

 

[Inspir]

I am working as a security officer right now at a homeless shelter in Calgary (East Village) while completing college. When I first started I was amazed of the amount of drug users, drug dealers, violent offenders, prostitutes, and overall crap disturbers. I learned quickly to watch not only my back but also the back of my partner. I would have to say that the tool of the trade is common sense and maturity.

As far as I know the Alberta Government is in the process within the next 8 months to approve the use of OC spray and batons for private security. This is my take on it:

OC Spray - I would be fine with this as a last resort defensive tool only. This is to say a SO would not use this just because a trespasser will not leave the premises or gave the SO a dirty look. I've seen SO's slam a guy to the ground and in cuffs just because they looked at them the wrong way, I could just imagine what would happend if OC spray was issued.

Batone - This I would have a problem with. Why? Because if you use it on someone you are just asking to be sued. You just tap someone in the knees with that thing and they could be crippled for life.

Firearms - Ya right! Asking for an accident

Tasers - Ya right! Asking for an accident

If crap hits the fan that is why you have a radio/cell phone. 911 ! I have to remind allot of guys at work that they are security officers and not peace officers. Anyone one can arrest a person, its called section 494 of the Criminal Code, a.k.a. citizens arrest.

My two cents

 

[Dox]

I work as a LPO and I can't even count the amount of times I wished for a ASP, not much fun trying to arrest someone that isn't worried about carrying illegal weapons. People have tried to stab me and tazer me and all I get is a pair of cuffs and some slash proof gloves.

 

[Inspir]

Same. I get slash resistant gloves, bullet proof and spike proof vest, handcuffs, and a radio.

Sure it would be nice to have the other toys, but if you are doing your job right you will never have to use them. E.g.: Verbal Judo