Corporal Punishment

[Torlyn]

I proposed a system of punishment that was seen to be quick and effective, that is the deterrent value in it.  What is the point of having laws if they are not enforced or the method of enforcement is so drawn out and fraught with compromise.  Perhaps the bamboo switch is not required, it could be something else; I just picked it because it can be administered quite quickly and efficiently and I really do think Heinlein is a genius.

As a note, this idea doesn't necessarily have to be restricted to youth crime; there are plenty of adults out there with no sense of social responsibility.  I chuckle at the thought of some tough "homeboy" crying like a baby after a caning for smoking pot in a park.

Having been the victim of a few stereo thefts, I agree wholeheartedly.  If the parents aren't willing/able to, well, PARENT their children, perhaps the state should take over.  I know historically in BRitian (and in some instances in Canada that I'm aware of) the choice given the young offender was "join up, or start breaking rocks".  I wonder, if the federal government is so enthused about increasing our military strength, what about sliding some of the justice budget to the CF, and allow for "at risk" youth the chance to redeem themselves through military service.  Infanteer, I do like the mental image of the homeboy with his hat on backwards, pants around his waist trying to be all cool while getting caned, but I think I like the image of that same snot-nosed little punk getting a new one torn open on the parade ground by his new drill instructor...  A little discipline goes a long way, and might actually make them productive citizens...  IMHO, of course, but given the weakness of the YCJA, we need some sort of alternative.  Military service has "straightened out" many people in the past.  Why not use it?  And, if we don't want them, fine.  French Foreign Legion.  I hear they treat people nicely there... 

 

[Michael Dorosh]

We've had the same debate about conscription in Canada; putting criminals in the ranks is NOT say again NOT the direction any professional soldier would want the Forces to go.  Not even worth considering - suggest you do a search on the various conscription threads for a detailed analysis of why that is such an undesirable option.

 

[beach_bum]

I agree that putting them in the CF is not the way to go.  However, I do feel that instead of sending them off to a detention home (or back with their parents who obviously are not capable or willing to deal with them) perhaps creating a pseudo-military school would be beneficial.  Somewhere they are going to get discipline (not a fun relaxing camp to go play video games), where they will have to earn privileges.  At the same time, teach them skills and help build their self-esteem and instill a sense of pride in themselves.  Teach them that they can be more than a punk running around getting into trouble.  It might help some of them and put them on the right track.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

For lack of a more politically correct term I think the lack of corporal punishment and continued weakness of the youth criminal code
(as well as the lack of support for our military) are part of a larger "pussification of the culture".

In particular our female demographic has been easily caught up in PC mantra's   "there is no justification for war" and "there is no
justification for violence" without any deep consideration of the consequences.  

It is blind.   It is dumb.....and unfortunately I would contend it's going to be up to males to initiate a redressing of the balance....

JMHO,



Matthew.  

 

[Cloud Cover]

"pussification of the culture".

In particular our female demographic has been easily caught up in PC mantra's   "there is no justification for war" and "there is no
justification for violence" without any deep consideration of the consequences.  

It is blind.   It is dumb.....and unfortunately I would contend it's going to be up to males to initiate a redressing of the balance....

A little to harsh, and I would add probably not likely to be borne out by the facts. Would you care to elaborate before you write off 52% of the population with such a bold pronouncement? Note I am not challenging your intellect, just surprised by your assertions. Would you kindly present a modicum of evidence upon which to ground your opinion, be it empirical, statistical or otherwise. As much of a real conservative as I am,  I have a hard time accepting your thesis without further articulation that women are largely responsible for the particular social problem that is the subject of the thread.  If you are talking about a feminist construct of social order, that is a far different animal than the female demographic. I would counter with the proposition that there are as many men, if not more men than women, who ascribe to a preponderance of feminist principles, whether they realize it or not. After all, there are far more males seeking protection from accountability in the criminal justice system than females, more male union members than female etc.  ...           

 

[Infanteer]

Blackshirt, that statement was just dumb.  I've seen enough granola heads with a Y chromosome to know that rejection of both authority and the use of force is more of a social phenomenon rather then a biological one.

As well, Margaret Thatcher thinks you're a pansy....

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

As well, Margaret Thatcher thinks you're a pansy....

Hey Margaret Thatcher is one of my heroes.

In regards to the contention, I don't know how many dates you gentlemen have been on this last couple of years
but I've been on a lot, not to mention I manage about 15 women in my job.   In short, I'm drawing my conclusion from
personal discussions with between 35-50 women over the last 24 months.

Whether they are representative of the general population is something I couldn't guarantee.

My experience is as follows:

When discussions turn to military items, they don't know a thing....   In most cases they had bought into the
"There is no justification for war" mantra and favoured cutting military spending and increasing foreign aid.    That being
said once a hypothetical like "the ability to intervene in a Rwanda #2" was raised, it was like a lightbuld went off.  
They simply had never considered the military in that context before.

When discussion turn to crime/punishment, again they started with a different set of preconceptions.   Specifically
buying into the mantra "Who are we to take another person's life?" in context to the Capital Punishment date.

The best generalization I can make is that perhaps due to inherent communal bonding nature, they are naturally inclined
to believe in societal causation over individual free will as the key contributing factor to an individual committing a crime.

My male friends who get together regularly are of an inherently different mindset.  

Most are young professionals.

They are big believers in military as a neccessary tool of foreign policy.  

My own hypothesis is that the reason males are more likely to have this opinion is that they had more experience with
bullies in thier teens and during those encounters they learned that appeasement or diplomacy with bullies is a devil's
bargain.   Women and guys who hung out with girls (and did not play contact sports) would not have had this
experience and as such are more likely to be idealist pacificists....

I would add that while the males I associate with watch Frontline, Nova and the news and discuss current events,
the women I socialize with want to tell me about what happened on "The Bachelorette", "Survivor" and "What not
to Wear".

Bottom Line:   I stand by my contentions and would argue that anyone who looked at demographic breakdowns of
the War on Iraq or Capital Punishment would immediately recognize that gender-based differences are a reality and
to pretend they do not exist is disengenuous.

Best wishes to all.



Matthew.    

 

[Danjanou]

Interesting debate.

I am old enough to remember corporal punishment in the school system and it was effective. Can't remember what it was I did to get sent to the Principles Office back in Grade 1 or 2, but I know damn well I never did it again. Double whammy was a full report that was sent home and another swift strap from the old man.

As suggested there are both pros and cons to the use of punishment. Yes it can be abused.Trust me I've seen enough abused kids at my civvy job and called Childrens Aid so often I once had it on speed dial. We've had debates on here before about persons in positions of trust (teachers, scout leaders etc) who have abused said trust and harmed children.

That said I have also seen kids, teens and adults who probably could have benefited greatly from a good old fashioned smack on the arse at some time in their life as opposed to a "time out" or being told its not "their fault" that they bully, lie, steal, etc. but fill in the blank (society, absent father, Mike Harris etc etc). Again often the end result becomes a part of the daily hell I call work. You need  licence to own a gun and/or drive a car in this country, but none to become a parent. Parenting, including disciplining your children if and when required, last time I checked is a skill that needs to be learned, and is one lacking these days among many members of our society. Especially in a nice touch of irony the most vulnerable.

Somewhere between the two extremes, as is often the case, is the ideal situation. As a society we have "advanced" but along the way I think we let a few things fall by the wayside. Todays politically correct minions who have taken over our courts, schools, and social safety net for some reason refuse to accept Murphys Law of Maintenance " if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  Especially when it suggest implies a little self responsibility and maybe swift action to deter or correct something we as  a society have determined is wrong or inappropriate. Sometimes a trip to the woodshed was/is warranted.

BTW the caning incident was in Singapore for those interested. A spoiled American teenaged tourist who thought the rules re littering and graffiti (Which are pretty damn strict in Singapore BTW) didn't apply to him. He made a big fuss on the talk show circuit along with his outraged parents IIRC and Oprah and Phil  all agreed that poor little Johnnie was the victim of a barbaric culture. That said I'll bet the little oxygen thief will think twice about dropping his candy bar wrapper on the street in some foreign city.

Oh yeah before I forget, (Damn old age and aluminum mess tins) I never got my cave drawings wrong there squid boy and I always got my share of mastadon meat.

Ummm Mastadon Meat. ;D ;D

 

[beach_bum]

Blackshirt.  I'm not sure where you meet your women, but they are sure different from most of the women I know.  First of all, I am a woman.  Secondly,  I have quite a few friends that are women.  They all watch the news, read the paper, vote, and are all capable of carrying on a conversation about politics and things other than such drivel as The Bachelor etc.  Perhaps you might want to rethink your dating grounds and broaden your horizens, instead of lumping women into these categories of mindless bon bon eating, soap opera watching zombies.
I am also a single parent.  Believe me.  There is discipline in my house.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I read that last part while drinking a Timmies Danjanou...you trying to kill me??

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Blackshirt.  I'm not sure where you meet your women, but they are sure different from most of the women I know.  First of all, I am a woman.  Secondly,  I have quite a few friends that are women.  They all watch the news, read the paper, vote, and are all capable of carrying on a conversation about politics and things other than such drivel as The Bachelor etc.

Can we please have some names and phone numbers?  ;D

PS.  Seriously....

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Blackshirt.   I'm not sure where you meet your women, but they are sure different from most of the women I know.   First of all, I am a woman.   Secondly,   I have quite a few friends that are women.   They all watch the news, read the paper, vote, and are all capable of carrying on a conversation about politics and things other than such drivel as The Bachelor etc.   Perhaps you might want to rethink your dating grounds and broaden your horizens, instead of lumping women into these categories of mindless bon bon eating, soap opera watching zombies.
I am also a single parent.   Believe me.   There is discipline in my house.

I believe there is discipline in your home.

I believe that Margaret Thatcher was an outstanding leader.

I believe that Neville Chamberlain was a whuss.

The women from which I'm drawing a cross-section are by no means mindless zombies.   Most are dedicated professionals
in various fields whom in their worklife are exceptional.

The difference is quite candidly in what they choose to focus upon their non-work hours.

They do watch all that mindlesss crap and when they get together with other women (often at the same table at which
I am sitting) they choose rehash the trials and tribulations that occurred on these shows.   There seems to be a collective
emotional experience that I don't quite understand.   (Of note they also discuss shopping, especially shoe shopping
the same collective way....)

The men at the exact same table are generally discussing politics, work experience, the stock market or sports and instead
of being based on a collective emotional experience is it generally very logisitics based (everything is meaured).  

The following are excerpts from my last dinner with male friends:

"I read a damning article on our current debt structure.  Regardless of what Martin is spouting we're still paying close to
20% of total tax revenues on servicing the interest on the debt.  That works out to about $35 billion dollars (on about
$180 billion in total revenues).  The scary part is these idiots believe the debt problem is resolved and although they've
had an opportuntiy to pay down large chunks of debt over the last couple of years, instead at the very last minute they've
bloody well spent it on "goodies" that they think will be politically rewarding.....
.
.
The scary part is that if underlying interest rates ever spike for whatever reason we are just screwed as within a couple of
years (with Martin's new fixation on shorter terms) we could end up with carrying costs jumping by upwards of $10 billion
(based on 2% of the current national debt of $516 billion) which could mean an inability to sustain his ever-expanding list
of programs without either raising taxes or falling back into debt."

"I met a really interesting guy on the road the other day.  He does web development for an engineering firm in Minnesota.
We got to talking and started to put together a plan to use our XXXXXXXXXX with his web savvy to create a new company.
The guy's got it all.....On the web side he's got Macromedia Studio Suite, Adobe Suite and on the database side he's got
SQL and Oracle experience out the wazzoo.
.
.
We're at the point of formulating a partnership agreement but based on my last incorporation I think it makes more sense
to go that route right off the bat and just get the accounting structures set-up right away."

"I've added some more PEY.UN-T to my portfolio this week.  I just love the damned stock.  I've made about 150% return
in the last year when it converted to an income trust.  Even with that return I'm still adding to my position because:
1)  I love the long-term play of natural gas as the demand for energy with only increase in coming years from China/India
2)  They are very conservative with their distributions paying out only 45% of generated cash as distributions while sinking
the remainder back into the drill bit.
3)  Even with that extremely low payout ratio, I still get paid a 6% yield to sit on my money
.
.
6)  Their reserve life is double that of most comparable Oil & Gas Trusts"

Bottom Line:  Although my generalization may not apply to you, I contend it is broadly applicable.  All inductive reasoning
indicates it is more than just happenstance that polling numbers re: Capital Punishment or War show clear gender preferences.
I would argue the reason is that there are genetic and cultural differences in the genders that shape our interests and it is
those interests that generate the wisdom that we use to formulate our opinions.   If you make the jump from beginning to
end of that rather long run-on sentence the implication is that gender significantly changes the probability you are pro-military
or pro-corporal punishment.

Oh man, my fingers are tired from typing....

One last caveat:  I don't pre-judge anyone based on gender, race or anything other factor.  That being said, I simply
cannot ignore what I feel are accurate observations because they appear politically incorrect to some....

Cheers ma'am and my apologies for any offence taken.



Matthew.  

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Can we please have some names and phone numbers?   ;D

PS.   Seriously....

I'd like to put my name on that list right after Michael's....seriously.



Matthew.  

 

[nULL]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,987172,00.html?

"Were you to glance up from the deserted beach below, you might mistake Tranquility Bay for a rather exclusive hotel. The statuesque white property stands all alone on a sandy curve of southern Jamaica, feathered by palm trees, gazing out across the Caribbean Sea. You would have to look closer to see the guards at the wall. Inside, 250 foreign children are locked up. Almost all are American, but though kept prisoner, they were not sent here by a court of law. Their parents paid to have them kidnapped and flown here against their will, to be incarcerated for up to three years, sometimes even longer. They will not be released until they are judged to be respectful, polite and obedient enough to rejoin their families."

I found this awhile ago, thought it might apply here.

 

[lfejoel25]

i remember getting the strap in grade 3 because a teacher saw a mark on my coat that "resembled" a hit from a snowball.  the fear and reputation of the strap was far worse than the hit.  you were just so terrified, and all of the stories going around about how it had nails in it.
personally, i think the answer is ditches.  have the suckers do community service, and a lot of it.  HARD work.  and if there is no ditches to be dug, just send them to a gravel pit to dig ditches, then fill them up.  and have them wear pink.  have them work for $2/hour that would pay off the damages.  i just feel like some of those kids need to learn what it's like to work for something, in order to have respect for other people and property.  because thats just the thing, some of these kids have never had any consequences, never had to work for anything, and never had any dicipline.  i'm relatively young, young enough to see these kids and know what they're like, and old enough to know the difference.

and blackshirt,  i know the kind of people you're talking about, but personally i don't think it has anything to do with gender, i just think there is an entire generation of pc morons out there.  there is nothing wrong with being pc, and there is nothing wrong with being a moron, but when you're a pc moron, there's a problem.  as soon as they hear "military", or "corporal punishment", all sense of debate goes out the window.  either oprah, or the backstreet boys said it was bad so it must be.  there is no longer such a thing as "having my own opinion"

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I've been staying out of this one as my employer has a lot of different idea's than I.  From where I sit the biggest problems with the youth who are "troubled" is that there is no retribution for the crime, and there must be.  I've always used this saying in regards to life and thats once in a while everyone[including myself] needs a shot to the head just to stay focused on reality. The youth system today is brutally geared towards telling the kids its everyones fault but their own [didn't we have a thread on this?] and the fact that there is almost no punishment for bad behavior.
One of my former co-workers worked at an open custody facility and I always remember the story where one of the "residents" pushed his plate of spaghetti onto my friends lap and all he was allowed to do was to give him a "timeout" in his room.[with radio and nintendo]
Now in real life if someone did that to you in a restarant just what do you think the normal reaction would be?....    Exactly, but thats not what these kids learn.
My 2 cents.

 

[Infanteer]

From where I sit the biggest problems with the youth who are "troubled" is that there is no retribution for the crime, and there must be.

Exactly Bruce, that was the main intent of my original post.

Getting the bamboo switch for a petty crime will be no more effective then a jail sentence or a criminal record if doing so entailed a lengthy court trial, lawyers, and the red tape and bureaucracy of the legal system.  In my opinion, justice is most effective when it is seen to be quick, efficient, and fair.

I used corporal punishment as a proposal because it is a form of punishment that really sucks (deterrent value), it can be easily adminsistered (even more deterrent value due to the fact youth know they will be dealt with if caught); and finally it can promote the message to a skeptical society that the law is really doing what its supposed to do.

I am sure other forms of punishment would work as well, as long as they were consistent with the intent that I stated above.  I like lfejoels example of immediate transfer to a local "chain gang" to serve a few days or weeks in hard labour to repay the community for ones transgressions (perhaps under the watchful eye of an NCO  >).

 

[Jungle]

I like lfejoels example of immediate transfer to a local "chain gang" to serve a few days or weeks in hard labour to repay the community for ones transgressions (perhaps under the watchful eye of an NCO   >).

Hey... I can do that !!!  >  ;D  ;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Infanteer,
The problem with the "chain gang" idea must still go back to the corporal punishment idea as what do you do when they say
" no I won't work and what are you going to do about it"?

 

[Inch]

Bruce, I'm thinking along the same lines as your shot to the head comment.  I've always been of the opinion that sometimes the best way to shut someone up is to punch them in the mouth, it only took one punch in the mouth for me when I was a teenager to learn when to shut the fuck up. Unfortunately, that doesn't fly in today's society, we're turning into a bunch of liberal sissies.  :rage:

Cheers