Corporal Punishment

[Infanteer]

Well, early this morning we caught two teenagers on the rooftop of our family business.  We were lucky we caught them before they caused any real trouble.  The RCMP held the kids, but refused to charge them for trespassing as they said it was useless to bring such a minor offence to trial.  A little frustrated, I admit the Mountie was right.

Does anyone feel an expedited system of punishment for petty youth offenders is needed?  I feel that simply letting them walk because their crime was so minor is wrong, as they still broke the law, and there is no lesson learned if they get away with it with no actual punishment.  What do you guys feel about caning?  I am unsure of how well the process works in Singapore, but I suspect that the social shame of such a punishment in East Asian cultures helps to drive home the effectiveness. 

In a worst case scenario, I could see corporal punishment, if instituted here, being some sort of "badge of honor" for juvenile criminals.  However, I understand the pain is quite intense, and perhaps if such a measure is applied quickly and efficiently by judicial bodies outside of the conventional courts (thus seen to be as almost a given if caught for a crime), perhaps this can act as some sort of real deterrent against petty crime.

What do you guys think?

 

[Tach9]

There was talk, at one time, of punishing the parents of the kids who broke the law. However that might solve one problem but cause another.

If you punish the father for the sins of the son, so to speak, then the father gets a criminal record but is far more interested in making sure thast the sun isn't out causing trouble in the wee hours likethe example above.

Some places also have a curfew for children under a certain age.

Mike

 

[Pieman]

Does anyone feel an expedited system of punishment for petty youth offenders is needed?   I feel that simply letting them walk because their crime was so minor is wrong, as they still broke the law, and there is no lesson learned if they get away with it with no actual punishment.   What do you guys feel about caning?

caning? lol. I honestly can't see that happening in a million years in this country. I recall when an American kid was caught putting up graffiti in an Asian country a few years ago (I think it was Thailand) and everyone was up in arms about it as he was sentanced to 10 lashes.

I do agree that there should be some kind of discipline to be enforced on the kids. Perhaps a short term detention center? (kind of like a drunk tank, except for rowdy teens) Or better yet, a policy of family intervention. i.e. The police take the kids back home and turn them over to their parents and have a little chat. Maybe inform the student's school of the infraction and have them enforce discipline through detention. (assuming it is not summer of course)

Do you know if the police made an effort to contact the kids parents?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I also can't see caning ever being used to punish young offender but that is the crux of the problem IMO, The Young Offender Act. If you start giving them adult sentences for adult crimes I think it would be a wake up call for these kids and the parents. I am not saying to put them with adult prisoners but to give them similiar sentences to what adults get.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The Y.O.A. was repealed a few years ago, it seems to many youths [aka little b*st*rds" were ending up in youth jail.  [This happened in 2002, I believe]. The Youth Criminal Justice Act is the "modernized" replacement for the YOA , but I think that is the wrong term to use. How about "de-fanged", or even more correctly, "sensitized."

Infanteer, I sympathize with your situation, but look what the cops have to deal with from this piece of trash legislation:

"6. (1) A police officer shall, before starting judicial proceedings or taking any other measures under this Act against a young person alleged to have committed an offence, consider whether it would be sufficient, having regard to the principles set out in section 4, to take no further action, warn the young person, administer a caution, if a program has been established under section 7, or, with the consent of the young person, refer the young person to a program or agency in the community that may assist the young person not to commit offences."

I won't even bother with the principles and objective portion of the Act, it is sickening. Next time this happens, you might want to think about calling their parents rather than the cops, and if their father is decent enough, he'll pay for the damage, and perhaps have a little heart to heart "behind the woodshed" with junior. But then again, odds are if the father gave a sh* at all, junior wouldn't be up on your roof at 5 in the morning. Don't ever put your hands on them, you will regret it and just end up getting charged yourself, and probably sued as well. Hows that for a dysfunctional justice system?       

 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Don't ever put your hands on them, you will regret it and just end up getting charged yourself, and probably sued as well. Hows that for a dysfunctional justice system?

Not unless the body is found!

 

[Infanteer]

I won't even bother with the principles and objective portion of the Act, it is sickening. Next time this happens, you might want to think about calling their parents rather than the cops, and if their father is decent enough, he'll pay for the damage, and perhaps have a little heart to heart "behind the woodshed" with junior. But then again, odds are if the father gave a sh* at all, junior wouldn't be up on your roof at 5 in the morning. Don't ever put your hands on them, you will regret it and just end up getting charged yourself, and probably sued as well. Hows that for a dysfunctional justice system?

Yeah, the parents were contacted.  They seemed a little inconveinced by the whole thing.  Anyways, my first idea was to line rooftop with low-strung concertina wire.  I was informed that we would be held liable for any injuries that the next trespasser suffered.  So much for defending your property these days; John Locke would be rolling in his grave....

 

[Jarnhamar]

Would it ever happen here? Nope.
Should it? Yes.

People aren't being held accountable for their actions.

 

[patt]

Yeah, the parents were contacted.   They seemed a little inconveinced by the whole thing.   Anyways, my first idea was to line rooftop with low-strung concertina wire.   I was informed that we would be held liable for any injuries that the next trespasser suffered.   So much for defending your property these days; John Locke would be rolling in his grave....

just set up a bunch of trip flares that would scare them off and get the cops over there!  i agree with most of the posts..our system is too easy on these kids everyday when i go to school kids always say "Im gonna commit a crime and they cant do anything to me cuz im not 18"

 

[qjdb]

My wife does an in-home daycare.   Last Friday, there were a total of 7 kids, including our 2, ranging in ages from 10 to 4.   My house backs onto a large park, and there is a playground about 3 houses down from our backyard.

Lorraine sent the kids ahead to go to the swings, while she grabbed a book and her sunglasses.   As she was getting to the gate, the eldest, Matthew, came running up to her, telling her that 4 other kids (approx 12-14 yrs old) had held him down, and restrained his 9-year old brother.   And then, once they had him down, they said, "2 down, 5 to go".   Well, needless to say, that got my wife going!

She started yelling for the older kids to come back to her so that she could talk to them, but, of course, they just laughed at her, and rode away on their bikes.   So she went inside, and phoned the RCMP, who have a really hard stance on bullying, due to several high-profile incidents recently, in BC.   She also phoned the parents of the day-care kids, and they got there as fast as they could.

At that point, I came home, and met one of the moms in the driveway.   I hadn't heard about the incident yet, but got the info quickly.   The mom and I each grabbed a FRS radio, and went to the two entrances to the park, while my wife stayed at the house with our kids, and another radio.   At which point she phoned the RCMP back, and let them know that we had the delinquints bottled up, not that we could have restrained them if they had really wanted to leave.

Anyways, when the police officer got there, you should have seen these kids' jaws drop   :crybaby:.   They obviously didn't expect that kind of response   ;D.

The cop took each of them home, and in all instances, at least one parent had to be called from their work.   As you can imagine, the parents were, thankfully, not impressed with their spawns' exploits, and at least one has called the mom of the daycare kid to apoligize for his kid's actions.

So, in some instances, the cops can do SOME things, but yeah, I agree, mostly, their hands are tied.   They have basically been told or figured on their own, that if there is not property damage or blood, to let it get handled by the parents.

But I have to commend this one cop.   She told us that when she took each kid home, that she wasn't leaving until each kid was crying.   Gotta like that attitude   .   Oh and one of the 'perpertrators' was a gal, and when the cop started talking to them, she said to the cop, "I'm ONLY a girl, I couldn't do any of that kind of stuff."   At that point the cop sort of huffed at her, and reminded her that she was ALSO a female.   It was pretty funny.

Quentin

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Booby traps are illegal.  What if the building caught on fire and a firefighter had to go up there into your concertina wire?  It's like putting a guillotine behind your bay window.  Great for killing thieves, bad for firefighters or paramedics who have to break into your place in an emergency.

However, the clever find ways.  I heard this story from a Customs Officer in the regiment, and may be embellished a bit through faulty memory, but you get the idea.

Seems some guy got tired of having his car stereo boosted, so he installed fish hooks behind the dash.

One morning he comes down to his car, and finds a miscreant there with his hands caught up behind the dash in the fish hooks. One way barbs, meaning you get your hands caught in them, you don't get them off again.  Buddy gets arrested, no problem.  Probably first offence (read that as: first time the thieving bastard got caught).

Gets off lightly, but sues the dude with the fish hooks.  It's illegal to booby trap personal property.  Goes to trial.

Judge: "Why did you have fish hooks behind the dash of your car?"

Dude: "To keep the wiring in place, it was untidy."

Judge: "Case Dismissed."

;D

 

[mclipper]

That's a great story.  The system (and a lot of parents) are too easy on delinquents.  I was over at a friends house a few weeks ago, and some kids in the park were throwing rocks at the smaller kids.  I confronted the one (who was about 10) and started chewing him a new one.  He just smirked.  I wanted to rips his lips off!  I told him I was going to go talk to his Dad, and he just got mouthier.  When I did speak with the father....I got the response that "You know how boys are."  He laughed.  I got the remember when we were young kinda thing.  I said that if I would've behaved like that when I was young....I would've got a beating!  First, for throwing rocks at little kids....secondly, for being disrespectful to an adult. :rage:

 

[Inch]

I'm willing to bet most of the older board members will remember the strap they used to give you in public school.  It was taken out of the system because it was considered cruel or something like that.  Anyway, when I was 7 I got caught for throwing snowballs and was sent to Principal's office. I got a long lecture followed by the strap across the palms of my hands, let me tell you, I never threw another snowball until I was 17. I'm all for belts and straps given out by parents and teachers, as long as it's reasonable and not excessive. I lied to my dad one time and got the spanking of my life, he threatened that it'd be worse the next time I lied and it worked because I never lied to my parents again. Kids have no fear anymore and until kids mature into adults, they need to have fear of something, it keeps them in line.

Cheers

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

H*ll.. Danjanou remembers being sent to the back of the cave without any mastadon meat if he got his cave paintings wrong!

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm willing to bet that if a kids parents keep getting calls at work which leads to embarassing them and running the risk of losing their job (having to leave work to go pick your kids up over and over) they would take disiplining their kids much more serious.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm willing to bet most of the older board members will remember the strap they used to give you in public school. It was taken out of the system because it was considered cruel or something like that. ...... Kids have no fear anymore and until kids mature into adults, they need to have fear of something, it keeps them in line.
.

Wait for it......in the future when they become parents they will learn the meaning of fear..... >

GW

 

[RCA]

I'll start off by saying I am not in favour of corporal punishment. To often its is used out of frustration as opposed to discipline, and some don't know the difference between that and abuse.

I think the problem today lies with the parents. As parents you have to draw the left and right arcs, and enforce them. Know where your kids are, and what they are doing. Let them know you give a rat's ass. What I see now a days is kids ruling the roost, and parents trying to be the kids friends. We are not their friends, we're their parents, we make the rules, and if they don't like them, tough. That is the way of the world. It means work, and there are no shortcuts when it comes to parenting. As they get older, and have earned it, so can start looseing the reins.

It worked for my kids, I never had to lay a hand on them and they turned out well, never gave us extra-ordinary trouble and both are now in university with solid career goals.

 

[Infanteer]

But we cannot hope to expect that all parents will be able to maintain control of their children, especially when they hit the teenage years.  You would have no reason to worry about your children getting the switch because you raised them well and they stayed out of trouble.  But what if a son decides to say "fuck you Dad, I'm 15 and I'm smoking pot and vandalizing the property of other people, and you can't do shit about it."  If a parant is unwilling or unable to step in, then I feel it is the job of the law to intervene when minor offences are committed.

I proposed a system of punishment that was seen to be quick and effective, that is the deterrent value in it.  What is the point of having laws if they are not enforced or the method of enforcement is so drawn out and fraught with compromise.  Perhaps the bamboo switch is not required, it could be something else; I just picked it because it can be administered quite quickly and efficiently and I really do think Heinlein is a genius.

As a note, this idea doesn't necessarily have to be restricted to youth crime; there are plenty of adults out there with no sense of social responsibility.  I chuckle at the thought of some tough "homeboy" crying like a baby after a caning for smoking pot in a park.

 

[Tach9]

I have a friend who is a cop in York Region in Ontario.  He told me a story about some kids who thought it was funny to through lit firecrackers into an old lady's yard.

They were cornered by my boddy and a few other cops...All had their guns drawn. See the complaint had come to the police as a "person person firing a gun" near the old lady's house.

All the kids were severely scared by the cops before being taken home.

Mike

 

[RCA]

The seed of destructive behavior are sowed early. No teenager ( this is when parents start going grey) all of a sudden tells the parents to F off. Itass a fine line between too much leniency and too much control. as i said its work. Improving parenting skills will solve some of the problems.

  I agree there are some who need to be "taught" the proper way. I am in full agreement that all actions must have consequences. Done properly, the youth will correct his behavior. The question being is incarceration going to do the trick. Possibly if combined with continuing the educational process. Unfortunately, I think the only education the youth have is learning from his peers and when he/she gets out, just going back to what they were doing. When it comes to young offenders the emphasis must be on rehabilitation, not punitive, as you are just creating an adult criminal.

Where I come from, some of the judges have resorted to sentance offenders to clean up there messes, apologizing to the the people they have wronged, pay restitution, write essays on why what they did was wrong and what effect he has on other people. Some may think this is mambie Pammie, but it forces them to think past themselves and their actions have consequences not just on them selves, but others.