• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Conservatism needs work

Status
Not open for further replies.
Redeye said:
Well, insofar as the invisble hand gave Saskatchewan mineral wealth that Ontario doesn't have. The argument breaks down basically immediately thereafter.

.......and what would that be?

How about breaking down your mass generalization.

A particular mineral? One over the other? Who has more oil vs who has more gold? What?

Overall, who has more mineral wealth? Who has more marketable mineral wealth? Who is more capable of getting their minerals out of the ground, right now, and making profit on them?

You have to substantiate your statement(s).

Otherwise your just falling back on your regular old, run of the mill,  :blah:  :blah: :blah:.

All hyperboyle, no substance.
 
I'm no particular fan of Dalton McGuinty, and I still wonder why John Tory blew his election chances with the stupidity of the religious schools issue. I think that torpedoed him, and if I understood what he was trying to do, basically co-opt religious schools with public money, it was more bad marketing, but when people wax poetic about the "Common Sense Revolution", I think they need to go back and read more about it. And FYI, remember the scandal about the Ontario PC Youth's booze buses? I was one of the kids on them. I was a card-carrying Tory until about 2004 or so.

Harris & Co. slashed taxes which was great, but they plugged budget holes by selling off Crown assets - not exactly a sustainable strategy. They also left a pretty substantial deficit on the books as I recall by the time the Liberals won. I'll give Dalton credit, too, for his campaign ads in the last election. It's refreshing to see a politician stand on his record instead of attacking someone else. He was self-deprecating in some ways, modest, and personable. I think that's what helped him stay in office, even if only in a minority government.

I wish it was as easy to simplify as mineral wealth versus non-mineral wealth. The two provinces have completely different resources, populations, and challenges to face. What works in one wouldn't work in the other, and their relative performances, as such, don't really effectively measure all that much.

recceguy said:
.......and what would that be?

How about breaking down your mass generalization.

A particular mineral? One over the other? Who has more oil vs who has more gold? What?

Overall, who has more mineral wealth? Who has more marketable mineral wealth? Who is more capable of getting their minerals out of the ground, right now, and making profit on them?

You have to substantiate your statement(s).

Otherwise your just falling back on your regular old, run of the mill,  :blah:  :blah: :blah:.

All hyperboyle, no substance.
 
Redeye said:
I'm no particular fan of Dalton McGuinty, and I still wonder why John Tory blew his election chances with the stupidity of the religious schools issue. I think that torpedoed him, and if I understood what he was trying to do, basically co-opt religious schools with public money, it was more bad marketing, but when people wax poetic about the "Common Sense Revolution", I think they need to go back and read more about it. And FYI, remember the scandal about the Ontario PC Youth's booze buses? I was one of the kids on them. I was a card-carrying Tory until about 2004 or so.

Harris & Co. slashed taxes which was great, but they plugged budget holes by selling off Crown assets - not exactly a sustainable strategy. They also left a pretty substantial deficit on the books as I recall by the time the Liberals won. I'll give Dalton credit, too, for his campaign ads in the last election. It's refreshing to see a politician stand on his record instead of attacking someone else. He was self-deprecating in some ways, modest, and personable. I think that's what helped him stay in office, even if only in a minority government.

I wish it was as easy to simplify as mineral wealth versus non-mineral wealth. The two provinces have completely different resources, populations, and challenges to face. What works in one wouldn't work in the other, and their relative performances, as such, don't really effectively measure all that much.

Then why the straw man for trying to draw a parallel?
 
recceguy said:
Then why the straw man for trying to draw a parallel?

Mea culpa. A quick, not exactly thought out response.
 
Saskatchewan has the same amount of mineral, oil and agricultural resources today as they did in the 1980's when I was posted in Alberta. Alberta was undergoing an oil boom, and everyone who I knew who had connections with the oil business wondered openly why Saskatchewan wasn't getting in the act.

Answer: The Sakatchewan NDP party, whose tax and regulatory policies in government made it much simpler to cross the border and get rich in Alberta.

Today, the Saskatchewan party has enacted user friendly tax and regulatory policies, so the same resource base is now providing a vast explosion in wealth.

The argument is strengthened when plotting the economic history of Ontario; once again the basic resource base has never changed, but the economy dips when unfriendly governments (Peterson  Minority, Rae, McGuinty) are in power, while it boomed under a friendly tax and regulatory regime (Mike Harris). Mobile assets like capital, labour and industry flow to where the highest rate of return is available, under McGuinty they have been flowing out of Ontario...

Students of history can see the same effects going as far back as the Peloponnesian wars, where relatively free polities outperformed much larger ones which had far greater resources but far less freedom. Athens had a much smaller resource base compared to Sparta and her Allies coupled to Persian financial backing, yet could continue to fight for 27 years, including a decade after the flower of her army and fleet was destroyed in Syracuse. Elizabethan England had only a fraction of the manpower and resources of the Spanish Empire, but Elizabeth started with a bankrupt treasury and built England into a major power, while Phillip bankrupted his empire despite the river of silver coming in from the New World. (People who complain that the issue today is not enough revenue should consider that example very closely indeed). The Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta was able to hold off the much larger Ottoman Empire for several centuries for many of the same reasons. The story of the Asian "Tiger" economies is much the same
 
You won't get an argument from me on the idea that a punitive environment for business is generally a bad thing - but who's going to pick up the tab for the Reagan years? Or the Harris years? In particular, in Ontario, it seemed like people were under the impression that the PC government of Harris & Eves had been running a balanced budget, which of course wasn't the case. If they had stayed in power, what would have happened when there were no more crown assets to sell?

Thucydides said:
Saskatchewan has the same amount of mineral, oil and agricultural resources today as they did in the 1980's when I was posted in Alberta. Alberta was undergoing an oil boom, and everyone who I knew who had connections with the oil business wondered openly why Saskatchewan wasn't getting in the act.

Answer: The Sakatchewan NDP party, whose tax and regulatory policies in government made it much simpler to cross the border and get rich in Alberta.

Today, the Saskatchewan party has enacted user friendly tax and regulatory policies, so the same resource base is now providing a vast explosion in wealth.

The argument is strengthened when plotting the economic history of Ontario; once again the basic resource base has never changed, but the economy dips when unfriendly governments (Peterson  Minority, Rae, McGuinty) are in power, while it boomed under a friendly tax and regulatory regime (Mike Harris). Mobile assets like capital, labour and industry flow to where the highest rate of return is available, under McGuinty they have been flowing out of Ontario...

Students of history can see the same effects going as far back as the Peloponnesian wars, where relatively free polities outperformed much larger ones which had far greater resources but far less freedom. Athens had a much smaller resource base compared to Sparta and her Allies coupled to Persian financial backing, yet could continue to fight for 27 years, including a decade after the flower of her army and fleet was destroyed in Syracuse. Elizabethan England had only a fraction of the manpower and resources of the Spanish Empire, but Elizabeth started with a bankrupt treasury and built England into a major power, while Phillip bankrupted his empire despite the river of silver coming in from the New World. (People who complain that the issue today is not enough revenue should consider that example very closely indeed). The Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta was able to hold off the much larger Ottoman Empire for several centuries for many of the same reasons. The story of the Asian "Tiger" economies is much the same
 
McGuinity isn't picking up the tab for the Harris years, he's spending us into a have-not province at $16 Billion a year and rising. We're worse off with the Liberals in Ontario than when Bob Rae was running things here, and that's saying something.
 
Before declaring my own personal Christmas Truce I would like to draw one last tortured analogy:

If the world market of 7,000,000,000 rational bodies is construed as a flowing river - constantly changing course, eddying, flooding, under-cutting its banks, puddling.....

Then your choices open are:

Accept the river as is;
Attempt to control it

If you attempt to control it then your choices are:

Build Dams;
Build Weirs and Canals

Dams attempt to block the river and eventually fail.
Weirs and canals permit the water to flow but impede and direct it to advantage.  They tend to last longer than Dams.

Dirigisme builds Dams.
L(l)iberalism builds weirs and canals.

It is a matter of accepting realities and working with them as opposed to denying realities and working against them.

 
Oh....now I see....that's where "that D a m n McGuinity" saying comes from.......
 
Foundations:

http://www.dansimmons.com/news/message/2006_04.htm

Thucydides taught us more than twenty-four hundred years ago … that all men’s behavior is guided by phobos, kerdos, and doxa, Fear, self-interest, and honor."

Responsible capitalism is self-interest mitigated with honor — in the sense of doing things right and considering also the rights and interests of others. Irresponsible capitalism is unmitigated self-interest – caveat emptor.

Fascism and communism replace self-interest and honor with various degrees of fear, which gets worse, the worse the tyranny, ending with unmitigated fear as the only motivator.

Socialism attempts to replace self-interest without creating fear. That leaves honor — which is probably the laziest of the three drivers — as the only motivator for independence and excellence.

Honor is also the most easily perverted, because it is defined in a cultural context. Suicide bombers are honorable, in their own light … (which is NOT an endorsement of either them, or a system which finds honor instead of horror in such actions).
 
A very interesting pilot project. Reading carefully, we see that highly selective targetting is the key to making this program work, rather than simply spraying money out of a hose, which suggests that this sort of program would be best delivered by local community groups and charities such as churches, rather than central bureaucracies:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/guess-funds-biggest-project-ever-house-homeless-stephen-201033843.html

Guess who funds biggest project ever to house the homeless? Stephen Harper
The Canadian PressBy Heather Scoffield, The Canadian Press | The Canadian Press – Mon, 26 Dec, 2011

    Email
    Print

Y! Videos
1 - 3 of 12

    On the road for 2012: Greener, leaner carsPlay Video

    On the road for 2012: Greener, …
    Raw Video: Perry tries to regain campaign buzzPlay Video

    Raw Video: Perry tries to regain …
    Spanish police release mafia arrest videoPlay Video

    Spanish police release mafia arrest …

See more videos

TORONTO - The government's response to the Attawapiskat housing crisis may well have underscored Stephen Harper's reputation for his hard line rather than his heart, with his focus on the aboriginal reserve's financial problems, not its social ones.

But in other parts of the country, the prime minister's government is also quietly bankrolling one of the largest social pilot projects ever seen in Canada, paying generously for cutting-edge research that is changing the lives of hundreds of homeless people.

The project may scream out for a new, national social program — the kind that has been anathema to Harper in the past.

But it is producing results that suggest federal involvement in funding homes for the homeless can be smart and save money.

The At Home/Chez Soi pilot project is now half way through its five-year life span, backed by $110 million of federal money channelled through the Mental Health Commission of Canada.

It's the most comprehensive research experiment with homelessness in Canada, if not the world, researchers say.

And it's working.

"We now have enough experience to know this can be done," says Paula Goering, lead researcher for the project.

The pilot project has its origins in the political dust-up of 2006. With Paul Martin's minority Liberal government on life support, NDP leader Jack Layton demanded billions in federal funding for housing and homelessness. The bargain eventually broke down, but left behind a mounting public concern that homelessness had been ignored for too long.

"Somebody needed to do something," recalls Michael Kirby, now the chair of the Mental Health Commission and a former Liberal senator.

The Conservative government agreed to set up a program through the newly-minted Mental Health Commission, pushed by then-health minister Tony Clement and Finance Minister Jim Flaherty. As is Harper's style, it was to be finely-targeted, one-time funding.

But top government officials, in touch with Goering and other researchers on the front lines, argued that homelessness was a growing scourge in every major city. And they saw a new approach in the parts of the United States that seemed to be producing results: dramatic reductions in homelessness, all while saving money on social services, and law enforcement.

The approach, known as "housing first", rejects the traditional method of trying to fix homeless people's underlying problems before guiding them towards affordable housing. Instead, the home comes first — heavily subsidized and with no strings attached. Then, a support team swoops in and bombards the homeless people with services of all kinds, if they want them.

The government was not about to embrace an experimental approach to the homeless wholesale. Instead, taking their cue from Harper, officials decided to zero in on a sub-group: the mentally ill.

Then they narrowed their focus further. In five cities across the country, they targeted a particularly vulnerable sector of the mentally ill homeless population. In Vancouver, it was substance abusers. In Winnipeg, urban aboriginals. In Toronto, visible minorities. In Moncton, migrants from rural areas. And in Montreal, access to social housing was emphasized.

At Home staff and partners in each city scour alleys and sidewalks for homeless people who fit the bill and funnel the willing into the program. They are divided into two groups: a new-approach group and a control group of treatment-as-usual, so the results can be compared.

Khusrow Mahvan was one of those selected and he can hardly believe his luck. The 54-year-old from Iran had been living on the street or in shelters since his business had gone bankrupt in 1997.

Hypersensitive, he purposely isolated himself, cowering in the corners and shying away from the frequent conflict, the noise and the chaos that dominates shelter life.

"I was always thinking I was going to die," he says.

Now, he has a spotless one-bedroom apartment overlooking Lake Ontario in Toronto. He talks at length of the spices and flavours he adds to his food, thoroughly treasuring the ability to cook for himself for the first time in years.

"Until two weeks ago….I couldn't open my eyes," he says, covering his face with his hands.

Still unaccustomed to living in a home, he sleeps on the floor in the living room, and uses the bed and bedroom for storage of his life's belongings, stuffed into countless garbage bags.

"I like the wideness of this place," he says.

In his lucid moments, he talks of developing enough independence to set up a fast-food stand on the street below, hoping to rebuild some savings.

Out in suburban Scarborough, Elizabeth Bennett meticulously organized and hung up a few dozen sketches she has finished, and decorated her tiny new apartment for Christmas. Her Bible and a small backpack are never far from her side, even while relaxing in her home.

She has spent the past few years in and out of shelters and various lodgings, struggling to gain control of her schizophrenia and deal with a former landlord who threatened her family and wanted to "keep" her.

Now, she has privacy, a strong support network, friends in the church nearby, and a sense of home.

"As long as I'm inside, I feel safe," she says. "I feel safe because of my prayer, and because of the security on the door."

A common criticism of the housing-first approach to homelessness is that it can't work in a tight housing market, where landlords can afford to be picky about their tenants.

Core to the idea is to give homeless people a choice in their home, so they can have some control over living conditions. But that's hard if there's not much rental housing available, says York University professor Stephen Gaetz, who heads the Canadian Homelessness Research Network.

"The challenge is that in a tight housing market, if there isn't an adequate supply of housing, how do you get people in?"

But the At Home clients come with ample support and funding attached, as well as a plan to prevent eviction. Often, they're less trouble than regular tenants, says Paula McDougall, the office manager at a building in a gritty part of north Toronto.

The At Home people pay their rent on time, she says, and they are coached on how to live in harmony with their neighbours. McDougall stays in touch with the case workers, and although she has no formal training in dealing with mental illness herself, she has had enough experience to know what to do if someone goes off their meds or causes trouble.

"I'm not pussy-footing around them," she says in an interview in the ground floor staff room that doubles as a smoking room.

At Home has been able to place everyone approached so far. As of November, the program was fully subscribed, with 1,030 homeless people now in homes and a control group of 980 people.

"At any time, 70 to 80 per cent of the clients are doing really well," says Aseefa Sarang, executive director of Across Boundaries, a Toronto mental health organization that is heading up implementation of At Home in that city.

That's an astounding success rate for a problem that has been the bane of many a government policy.

Nationally, almost all of those 1,030 people have stayed housed, although about 30 per cent have switched to different homes along the way. Most of them have moved on to the next step, working with professionals to design a support system that will help them cope and teach them to live more independently in the long run, says Goering.

"It makes it easier for people if they're not surrounded by others who have the same problems," she says.

"It's a pioneering and risqué approach that doesn't work for everyone….But in most cases, they are housing people, and they are staying housed."

Organizers have also been able to line up social service partners in every city, successfully setting up the support network that is crucial to making the approach work, she adds.

Researchers are slowly figuring out, in a methodical way, where the housing-first model does not work or needs to be modified, she says. Some homeless people feel too isolated to be living in their own home. And some vulnerable people find their new homes taken over by drug dealers and users because they lack the skills to turn their home into a safe haven.

Goering believes the amounts governments will save on prisons, shelters and emergency room use will offset the subsidies to housing. But the numbers could go the other way, she says, since some of the people who are now receiving an array of social services did not receive much before.

For the case workers, the former homeless people and the landlords who have placed their faith in the program, their concerns lie in the future.

They taste success, but they don't know what will happen when the program winds down in 2013. Some of the clients will only have been housed for two years by then, and for many, that's not enough for a stable life to take hold.

The thought of pulling away support from such a large group of vulnerable people is disturbing, say facilitators.

"We'll move heaven and earth to get the funding continued," says physician-researcher Stephen Hwang of the Centre for Research on Inner-City Health at St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto.

A nationwide program that invests big sums of up-front money in housing subsidies in the hopes of dealing with long-term issues of mental illness and homelessness will be a tough sell with the Harper government.

The prime minister consistently resists calls for new national social programs and is poised to shave funding from affordable housing over the coming years.

Proof the approach saves money will be crucial for government support.

"Either directly (or) indirectly, mental illness has a significant impact on Canadians -- in their homes, workplaces and streets. It also costs our economy billions," Flaherty told The Canadian Press.

"We're happy to see the progress of the Commission in tackling these issues."

For Kirby, who has dealt with more than his share of large and difficult public policy issues, there are two key questions going forward.

Is the housing-first model the best way to go? Without a doubt, he says.

"The second issue is, who pays for it….It's a real issue. There's only one taxpayer."

When governments, both federal and provincial, see the final results, he is convinced they will see the need to take housing-first to a national scale and someone will step up with funding.

"Once it's finished, we're going to make sure that every government in the country knows we saved them a whole pile of money," he said. "The whole thing is unbelievably uplifting."
 
Jerry Pournelle on defining "conservatism". We have been subjected to lots of psudo conservative movements (neocons, compassionate conservatives, Big Government Conservatives, "crunchy conservatives" [sounds like a brand of ice cream  ;D] and so on), and various related groupings like Libertarians and Objectivists have been swept up in the net as well. This is a fairly clear way of looking at things:

http://jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/?p=4536

What do we mean by Big Government Conservative anyway? It is, after all, a contradiction in terms. It might fairly have been applied to some of the hare brained schemes – mostly compromises and reaching across the aisle to Democrats – from the post-Gingrich days of Republican majorities; to the Americans With Disabilities Act; to No Child Left Behind; indeed to any number of compromise schemes; but on examination it is difficult to find anything Conservative about those schemes.

In the United States, Conservative means a dedication to the original Constitution of 1787; States Rights; transparency and subsidiarity as discussed by Jane Jacobs but those terms have often been usurped; and the general notion that a free people don’t need a nanny state. It also implies conceding a certain degree of local power in social matters. It does not mean anarchy and weak government. No conservative I know favors weak government. We do favor limited government and restriction of the scope of government, but that is nowhere near the same thing. Weak government and anarchy are a curse, and a temptation to tyranny. Good government is a blessing.

Conservatives differ from libertarians in degrees. Unlike most libertarians I would concede to local governments powers that I would not grant to national government, and were it in my power, I would forbid to states. I would concede local governments powers that I would strongly argue against their using anywhere I lived, and which would probably cause me to flee their jurisdiction; which is to say, I believe in the notion that governments derive their just powers from consent of the governed, and the more localized the powers, the more likely it is that those who live under that government consent to it – even if they are consenting to something I don’t care for or consider absurd. My favorite example is the Blue Bellybutton cult, which decrees that all those who go out in public on a Wednesday evening must display their loyalty by exposing their blue-painted belly button. I find that ridiculous, but if there were a town where the local inhabitants elected and installed the cult, I would either stop going out in public on a Wednesday or move to the next township. I admit that is probably an extreme example, and like most hypothetical situations might not accurately reflect what I would really do under the circumstances; still, it illustrates my point. I am prepared to have my books Banned in Boston although I would prefer they were not; I am not prepared to have the Congress ban my books throughout the United States.

On the other hand, there are actions that only government can take. In the past there were institutions that looked ahead for later generations. Monarchies, landed aristocracies, the Church and various holy orders began projects whose fruition their founders did not expect to see. Today the only institutions that can afford to invest for long term payoffs of benefit to all but unlikely of profit are governments. I have discussed this at length in the past. I do not withdraw that opinion.

Conservatives are not anarchists.
 
Here is an interesting "take" on the Libertarian/conservative darling Ron Paul, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/the-dangerous-isolationism-of-ron-paul/article2302229/
my emphasis added
The dangerous isolationism of Ron Paul

NEIL REYNOLDS

From Monday's Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Jan. 16, 2012

On the one hand, Texas congressman Ron Paul, Republican candidate for the presidency, is a zealous champion of limited government, free markets and low taxes. On the other hand, he reportedly thinks the U.S. should not have gone to war against Nazi Germany. What to make of this heresy? In a word, a great deal – for it may define Mr. Paul’s isolationism.

Imagine for a moment that Mr. Paul, not Franklin Roosevelt, served as U.S. president and commander-in-chief in the Second World War. Imagine that the U.S. went to war against only Japan, that Germany won the war in Europe – and that Hitler was able to keep the death camps running through the Age of Aquarius.

Mr. Paul justifies his isolationism on strictly fiscal grounds. Wars cost money. End the wars, end the taxes required to wage them. For some Americans, this seems a reasonable proposition. But this is almost certainly an evasion. Mr. Paul’s isolationism extends beyond fiscal restraint – and reaches implicitly to global surrender.

In his 2011 book Liberty Defined, for example, Mr. Paul cites Israel as a racist state that threatens American freedom. In a Boxing Day blog, former senior aide Eric Dondero – just fired for insubordination after 12 years of service – elaborated: Mr. Paul “most certainly is anti-Israel, and anti-Israeli in general. … His view is that Israel is more trouble than it is worth, specifically to the America taxpayer. He sides with the Palestinians, and supports their calls for the abolition of the Jewish state, and the return of Israel, all of it, to the Arabs.”

The Weekly Standard, a conservative journal, quoted Mr. Dondero further: Mr. Paul “does not believe that the United States had any business getting involved in fighting Hitler. He expressed to me countless times, that ‘saving the Jews’ was absolutely none of our business.” A few days later, Weekly Standard reporter John McCormack asked Mr. Paul four times to respond: Was Mr. Dondero telling the truth? Four times, Mr. McCormack said, he “remained silent.” Mr. Paul’s campaign staff subsequently clarified Mr. Paul’s silence: If Congress had declared war on Germany, Mr. Paul, as commander-in-chief, would have felt constitutionally obliged to wage it. (Germany, in fact, declared war on the U.S. before the U.S. declared war on Germany.)

This apparent reluctance to wage war on Nazi Germany goes beyond Mr. Paul. In his 2008 book Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War, controversial author Pat Buchanan (who himself once ran for the Republican presidential nomination) documents this dark, enduring niche in American conservatism. Mr. Buchanan blames Churchill, not Hitler, for the Second World War.

In fact, though, Mr. Paul gets even his economic argument wrong. The essential obligation of any state is defence – which doesn’t come free. Mr. Paul would take the U.S. out of NATO; would close American bases around the world; would end American foreign aid. But the U.S. cost of self-defence would inevitably rise, not fall, with each of these retreats into Fortress America. Would the U.S. Navy have use only of American ports? How long would international waterways remain open to unrestricted global commerce? What’s the ultimate financial cost of long-term appeasement?

U.S. defence spending is already at a record low, or very close to it, relative to GDP. U.S. military spending has increased 90 per cent since 9/11, yet remains far below its historical share of GDP. The U.S. spent 40 per cent of its GDP, for three years, to win the Second World War. The U.S. fought the Cold War for 30 years at a GDP cost of 10 per cent a year. By 2000, though, U.S. defence spending was costing only 3.6 per cent of GDP: 3.6 cents per dollar of the national economy.

By 2010, this cost almost doubled – to 6 per cent (all war costs included). But this cost is already falling. The Congressional Budget Office says that, with an end to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the country’s defence cost will fall back to 4.6 per cent within three years.

People who balk at paying four cents on the dollar for a nation’s defence (or, in Canada’s case, 1.5 cents) need to know exactly what wars they would fight and what wars they would skip. The Second World War wasn’t the first absolutely essential moral war in human history – and it won’t be the last.



There is, indeed, a logical "dark side" to American conservatism.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Here is an interesting "take" on the Libertarian/conservative darling Ron Paul, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/neil-reynolds/the-dangerous-isolationism-of-ron-paul/article2302229/
my emphasis added

There is, indeed, a logical "dark side" to American conservatism.

While Ron Paul himself doesn't particularly disturb me (or surprise me, at least), the liberals who drift into his camp because a couple of things resonate with him and don't do their homework on him do indeed scare the shinola out of me a little.
 
Being a libertarian, I'm sure that many of Ron Paul's social and foreign policies appeal to many "liberal" voters.  I wonder if they would be so enamored with his strict constitutionalist policies with regards to the role of the state in the economy and regulating business.
 
RangerRay said:
Being a libertarian, I'm sure that many of Ron Paul's social and foreign policies appeal to many "liberal" voters.  I wonder if they would be so enamored with his strict constitutionalist policies with regards to the role of the state in the economy and regulating business.

Actually, most "liberal" voters are pro-choice, so they wouldn't find his social policies particularly appealing. I don't think they'd find his opposition to things like the Civil Rights Act and the Americans With Disabilities Act particularly heartwarming either. That's why I don't get his appeal to them, other than they really like the idea of no more wars and curbing of defence spending perhaps. His other more contentious views (like his views on Israel) I don't think have any sort of "universal" liberal POV so some might like them, others will not.
 
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/straighttalk/archives/2012/01/20120129-113645.html

Capitalism, in its current form, has no place in the world around us.

Those words are not mine. They’re a quote, from a fellow named Klaus Schwab.

For the many who are unlikely to have heard of Klaus Schwab before, rest assured — he’s no socialist rabble-rouser.

He’s a billionaire, in fact, and the founder of something called the World Economic Forum, in Davos, Switzerland.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper was at Schwab’s Davos gathering last week, as were dozens of other world leaders and billionaires.

More on link.
 
Capitalism works fine.  Crony capitalism, which is what all those politicians at Davos live and breathe, sucks ass.  I don't need a thief to tell me my way of life is wrong when the true problem is simply that his way of life happens to be thievery - his viewpoint is too distorted to render a useful evaluation.
 
Governments "crowding out" communities is a long established trend. I think the real question now is two fold:

1. Can community based organizations recover fast enough to pick up the slack as governments are forced to withdraw due to financial pressure, and

2. Are people too habituated to the "Nanny State" to move to self help and local community organizations?

I remain hopeful that the Post Progressive future will see a flowering of communities again (even if they don't quite resemble those of the past i.e. communities of interest based on the Internet and social media), but time will tell:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/douthat-government-and-its-rivals.html?_r=1&smid=fb-share&src=tp&pagewanted=print

Government and Its Rivals
By ROSS DOUTHAT

WHEN liberals are in a philosophical mood, they like to cast debates over the role of government not as a clash between the individual and the state, but as a conflict between the individual and the community. Liberals are for cooperation and joint effort; conservatives are for self-interest and selfishness. Liberals build the Hoover Dam and the interstate highways; conservatives sit home and dog-ear copies of “The Fountainhead.” Liberals know that it takes a village; conservatives pretend that all it takes is John Wayne.

In this worldview, the government is just the natural expression of our national community, and the place where we all join hands to pursue the common good. Or to borrow a line attributed to Representative Barney Frank, “Government is simply the name we give to the things we choose to do together.”

Many conservatives would go this far with Frank: Government is one way we choose to work together, and there are certain things we need to do collectively that only government can do.

But there are trade-offs as well, which liberal communitarians don’t always like to acknowledge. When government expands, it’s often at the expense of alternative expressions of community, alternative groups that seek to serve the common good. Unlike most communal organizations, the government has coercive power — the power to regulate, to mandate and to tax. These advantages make it all too easy for the state to gradually crowd out its rivals. The more things we “do together” as a government, in many cases, the fewer things we’re allowed to do together in other spheres.

Sometimes this crowding out happens gradually, subtly, indirectly. Every tax dollar the government takes is a dollar that can’t go to charities and churches. Every program the government runs, from education to health care to the welfare office, can easily become a kind of taxpayer-backed monopoly.

But sometimes the state goes further. Not content with crowding out alternative forms of common effort, it presents its rivals an impossible choice: Play by our rules, even if it means violating the moral ideals that inspired your efforts in the first place, or get out of the community-building business entirely.

This is exactly the choice that the White House has decided to offer a host of religious institutions — hospitals, schools and charities — in the era of Obamacare. The new health care law requires that all employer-provided insurance plans cover contraception, sterilization and the morning-after (or week-after) pill known as ella, which can work as an abortifacient. A number of religious groups, led by the American Catholic bishops, had requested an exemption for plans purchased by their institutions. Instead, the White House has settled on an exemption that only covers religious institutions that primarily serve members of their own faith. A parish would be exempt from the mandate, in other words, but a Catholic hospital would not.

Ponder that for a moment. In effect, the Department of Health and Human Services is telling religious groups that if they don’t want to pay for practices they consider immoral, they should stick to serving their own co-religionists rather than the wider public. Sectarian self-segregation is O.K., but good Samaritanism is not. The rule suggests a preposterous scenario in which a Catholic hospital avoids paying for sterilizations and the morning-after pill by closing its doors to atheists and Muslims, and hanging out a sign saying “no Protestants need apply.”

The regulations are a particularly cruel betrayal of Catholic Democrats, many of whom had defended the health care law as an admirable fulfillment of Catholicism’s emphasis on social justice. Now they find that their government’s communitarianism leaves no room for their church’s communitarianism, and threatens to regulate it out of existence.

Critics of the administration’s policy are framing this as a religious liberty issue, and rightly so. But what’s at stake here is bigger even than religious freedom. The Obama White House’s decision is a threat to any kind of voluntary community that doesn’t share the moral sensibilities of whichever party controls the health care bureaucracy.

The Catholic Church’s position on contraception is not widely appreciated, to put it mildly, and many liberals are inclined to see the White House’s decision as a blow for the progressive cause. They should think again. Once claimed, such powers tend to be used in ways that nobody quite anticipated, and the logic behind these regulations could be applied in equally punitive ways by administrations with very different values from this one.

The more the federal government becomes an instrument of culture war, the greater the incentive for both conservatives and liberals to expand its powers and turn them to ideological ends. It is Catholics hospitals today; it will be someone else tomorrow.

The White House attack on conscience is a vindication of health care reform’s critics, who saw exactly this kind of overreach coming. But it’s also an intimation of a darker American future, in which our voluntary communities wither away and government becomes the only word we have for the things we do together.
 
A very interesting defense of capitalism, from the most unlikely of sources:

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit-archive/oldarchives/2002_02_24_instapundit_archive.html#10199471

PUNK ROCKERS FOR CAPITALISM: Reader John Bowman sends this link to a piece from Popshot Magazine on why capitalism, rather than Naderism, is truly punk:

Ralph Nader and the Green Party have gained tremendous support from the punk rock/independent community. The most recent "anti-capitalist" material I read on the web was juxtaposed with a link to Nader's "Fair Trade" web page. . . .

Ralph has been at this for 40 years or so and he doesn't seem to understand economics. He hates capitalism though it's made him a multi-millionaire. Capitalism values the entrepreneur and protects individuals. Ralph's also an asshole. I'd like to hear his investment secrets and not his suggestions to raise the minimum wage. . . .

How boldly do I have to make this point? Shouldn't this be obvious?

When I got into punk rock at 15 and 16, it was because I didn't fit into a clique. I wasn't a part of the mainstream. Punk rock, despite the peer pressure to wear black t-shirts and cut and dye my hair all funny, offered an escape for me to be an individual. Sound familiar?

Punk rock also offered a pretty hardcore code of ethics -- like community and equality and responsibility. One of the most enduring moments I've witnessed was when I saw Kurt Cobain stop a show because some meathead in the audience kept groping a girl in the pit. The mainstream meathead must have had no clue that kind of thing could happen. Only last year, I saw Sleater-Kinney eject a guy who was dancing rough in the crowd. The punks police themselves. Punks take initiative.

Entrepreneurial initiative is personified in the punk rock ethic of "DIY." Doing It Yourself is something that is only possible in a capitalist system. Without private and individual ownership of the means of production, independent punk rockers couldn't record songs on a four-track, duplicate them at home and sell them at shows. Imagine trying to get an entire community to agree to let you use the communal recording studio.

Self-regulating. Initiative-taking. Free-exchange and free-association -- the ability to associate and disassociate with whom you want.

What is it? Capitalism.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top