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Conflict in Darfur, Sudan - The Mega Thread

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See: What Next for CF? Sudan? on this page.

The operational requirement is whatever number of troops Mr. Kilgour decides are necessary to make him vote for the Martin government.
 
Polish Possy said:
I heard the Jtf-2 are already getting ready to go to Sudan .....
Please,...I implore you DO NOT go down that road. Your 16, right? so your friends father who is a cleaner at NDHQ overheard.....
The operational requirement is whatever number of troops Mr. Kilgour decides are necessary to make him vote for the Martin government
But that number has flip flopped in the last 24 hrs, PMO's stating 150 troops yesterday, 100 troops today... I dunno Make it a BN size deployment with all the CSS and other NATO contries and ill buy it for a dollar....
 
Sudan is considered to be an African problem, particularly the area of Darfur.  Why else would the African Union be involved?  What they currently lack is logistical support and the expertise necessary to carry out such an operation.  The man power question is not that big an issue, but the issue is once they are there on the ground, they do not have the experience nor equipment required to support themselves.  This is the first time the AU has mounted such a large force/operation within Africa.  Canadian ground troops will not go into Darfur because they don't want them there!  They will be employed, as many of you have said and as reported in the newspapers, advisor's and support staff.  The AU (military ops) is in its' infancy and Canada has many many years of experience with UN Deployments and know the potential problem areas.

Besides, if Canada experienced a similar problem, would you want foreign troops from outside your continental area on your sovereign territory?  It's not such a bitter pill to swallow, especially when its' your neighbours lending you a hand and you are somewhat confident that at the end of the day, they are going to go back home and not insist on wanting something in exchange.
 
DAA said:
Sudan is considered to be an African problem, particularly the area of Darfur.   Why else would the African Union be involved?   What they currently lack is logistical support and the expertise necessary to carry out such an operation.   The man power question is not that big an issue, but the issue is once they are there on the ground, they do not have the experience nor equipment required to support themselves.   This is the first time the AU has mounted such a large force/operation within Africa.   Canadian ground troops will not go into Darfur because they don't want them there!   They will be employed, as many of you have said and as reported in the newspapers, advisor's and support staff.   The AU (military ops) is in its' infancy and Canada has many many years of experience with UN Deployments and know the potential problem areas.

Besides, if Canada experienced a similar problem, would you want foreign troops from outside your continental area on your sovereign territory?   It's not such a bitter pill to swallow, especially when its' your neighbours lending you a hand and you are somewhat confident that at the end of the day, they are going to go back home and not insist on wanting something in exchange.

I wouldnt expect Canadians to massacre themselves to the tune of 100000's. And if we did I would want help from whereever I could get it. Genocide is a human problem. Not an African one.
 
BeadWindow said:
Genocide is a human problem. Not an African one.

I couldn't agree more with you! 

But if you look closely you will see that it was the US, in particular Colin Powell, who were the first to use that term to describe the situation in Darfur.  Yet the most recent visit by a high level US Diplomat was by US Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick and even he and the new US Administration are back tracking from those previous statements.  Besides most of what you read in the papers is only 1/3 true and that is on a good day.
 
Wow!  This is amazing: Sudan, despite being a dusty, grubby place full of black and brown people, expects to be treated like a sovereign nation when Prime Minister Dithers and Foreign Minister Pierre Prettycurls decide what Canada is going to do for or about or to it.  (See the paper attached to http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/17947/post-182791.html#msg182791 for a definition of what foreign policy is.)

Here is the poop from group from this morning's CanWest papers at: http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=d7249ce8-09aa-45c4-93a0-541fb1812035

Send aid, not troops, Sudan tells Martin
Ambassador says Khartoum wasn't consulted about PM's Darfur relief plan

Mike Blanchfield
The Ottawa Citizen

Saturday, May 14, 2005

Sudan has accused Canada of not properly consulting with Khartoum in the crafting of the Darfur aid package announced this week.

"This plan has never been consulted or negotiated with the government of Sudan," said Sudan's ambassador to Canada Faiza Hassan Taha in an interview yesterday. "They had enough time and ample time to talk to our government about their intentions. This has not happened. We feel very sorry."

The ambassador said Foreign Affairs called her Monday to tell her that Prime Minister Paul Martin was planning an announcement, which came on Thursday, of aid to the war-ravaged west Sudanese region of Darfur.

Ms. Taha said she asked Mr. Martin to call Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir or for Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew place a courtesy call to his counterpart, Mustafa Osman Ismail.

A spokeswoman for the prime minister, however, said the Sudanese government was fully advised. Melanie Gruer said Mr. Martin spoke to al-Mr. Bashir 24 hours before Thursday's announcement, and Canada's charge d'affairs in Khartoum briefed Sudan's minister of state for foreign affairs.

While Sudan welcomes the $170 million in military aid, and any other assistance Canada might be contemplating, Ms. Taha said her government firmly objects to non-African soldiers in Darfur. That means the 60-odd military advisers that are to assist the African Union should not set foot in Darfur, she added.

"We are not going to refuse any help, which we think we need. But we want to be there, in the picture, to participate fully as a government," said Ms. Taha.

"This is an agreement between the African Union and Sudan. The African Union should be given the chance and should be given the opportunity to develop its own capacity in dealing with African problems."

Ms. Taha also rejected calls by the independent MP David Kilgour for Canada to send at least 500 troops to the Sudan. Mr. Kilgour, whose vote is crucial to the survival of Mr. Martin's minority government in next week's confidence vote, has said he won't support the Liberals unless Mr. Martin increases the troop commitment.

"This will not be decided by Mr. Kilgour, neither by the Canadian government. But it will be decided by all parts which are involved in that in Sudan," said Ms. Taha.

Glen Pearson, of the volunteer group Canadian Aid for Southern Sudan, said he is urging Mr. Kilgour to support the government in its confidence vote next week.

Mr. Pearson, who was recently in Sudan and spoke with Mr. Martin and Mr. Kilgour in separate meetings this week, said it makes no sense for Canada to send hundreds of combat troops to Sudan as Mr. Kilgour is demanding.

"We've been to Sudan over 20 times. There's just no way Canada can logistically support that number of troops in such a huge country. Coalition partners would need to be involved," said Mr. Pearson.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005

The National Post print story - same article, just longer and not on the web, yet - goes on to discuss the fact that Canada and Sudan do not have any kind of Status of Forces Agreement which is required to allow Canadian troops to be armed in a foreign country - someone named Marie Okabe, at UNNY said that Canadians in UNMIS will not be carrying weapons.  Someone else, named Marie Christine Lilkoff (who is listed in the government's electronic directory as â ? Spokesperson, Africa, Asia, Middle-East, Commonw/Francophonieâ ? in International Trade Canada's Media Relations Office) said "DND is and will make appropriate arrangements to ensure the security of CF personnel.â ?  Notwithstanding her rudimentary grasp of English grammar, I wonder how an International Trade Canada press agent can say what DND will or will not be able to do.

I heard a pertinent comment the other day.  The Liberals' team, this person opined, is great at campaigning but lousy at governing.  This Sudan fiasco is a classic example: the whole exercise is founded, 100%, on public relations.  There is no Canadian policy objective at issue because the centre - the PMO - is not interested in policy, in fact the centre actively dislikes policy because it  gets in the way of politics.

So, maybe a handful of unarmed logistics type trainers and advisors and as much money as someone like Ms. Lilkoff can conjure up from existing lines in the Blue Book - will that be enough to buy Mr. Kilgour's vote?

Canadians who really, really believe in Pink Lloyd Axworthy's 'Human Security Agenda' and 'Responsibility to Protect' doctrine must demand, scream from the rooftops: "To hell with the UN and the Government of Sudan!  Load our Light Brigade into our C-17s and invade the Darfur region Now!  Human security is threatened and we have a responsibility to protect; let's not be hamstrung by petty legalisms - George Bush is right.â ?  Responsible Canadians must, yet again, slap their foreheads - look towards Festung Pearson and ask, quietly: â ?Is anyone thinking over there?â ?


 
Is Cluster F*&% one word or two?

All I can say is BOHICA. Any one in uniform who is looking forward to get into this mess must be out of thier freaking mind....

One thing is certain though...main body won't actually deploy for quite a few months...after all DART is a rapid reaction force and it took them 2 weeks.

Any bets on this Sudan mission falling to the wayside when the gov't crumbles next week?
 
Armymedic said:
Is Cluster F*&% one word or two?

All I can say is BOHICA. Any one in uniform who is looking forward to get into this mess must be out of thier freaking mind....

One thing is certain though...main body won't actually deploy for quite a few months...after all DART is a rapid reaction force and it took them 2 weeks.

Any bets on this Sudan mission falling to the wayside when the gov't crumbles next week?

Q1: Two, I think

Q2: One can only hope

It seems to me that you can, as a result of this, increase your chances of recognizing a Liberal in the dark: now you can add the smell of stupidity to the stench of corruption.

 
Ahhh, so once again we go rushing in to "do good", without making sure all our ducks are lined up... They don't want us!  ::)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/14/sudan-canada050514.html

One would have thought that the political/diplomatic side would have been sorted out before making this "generous" offer.  Er, guess not.

This sounds eerily familiar...

TR
 
This latest failure of the Canadian government to give their soldiers a chance to do what they signed up for deeply depressed me as I read the above article about Sudan --of all places-- rejecting our help.

When I joined the infantry in  '76 I had the idea that I would take part in history. Cyrpus turned  out to be club Med, the only danger the Canadian soldier getting into was on his own time. All the guys I served with were ready to do their duty which is what I also read throughout these forums. I started my career full of fire but by the time my three years came up I could barely keep the spark going enough to show up for work in the morning.

A few months ago while visiting in the states a thought occurred to me:

A Canadian youth must make a choice: do I want to take part in history or do I want to be a Canadian?
 
dross headon said:
This latest failure of the Canadian government to give their soldiers a chance to do what they signed up for deeply depressed me as I read the above article about Sudan --of all places-- rejecting our help.

When I joined the infantry in   '76 I had the idea that I would take part in history. Cyrpus turned   out to be club Med, the only danger the Canadian soldier getting into was on his own time. All the guys I served with were ready to do their duty which is what I also read throughout these forums. I started my career full of fire but by the time my three years came up I could barely keep the spark going enough to show up for work in the morning.

A few months ago while visiting in the states a thought occurred to me:

A Canadian youth must make a choice: do I want to take part in history or do I want to be a Canadian?
Thanks for the support... Obviously, you were in the CF during the dark ages (the 70s). The Canadian Military has played a large part in recent history, look at world events since 1992.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
It isn't infantry - not the main force anyway.   From what I have been told, we're sending "technical experts" as advisors to the African Union.   There may be some equipment involved (Grizzlies?), to be donated to the Africans, who will shoulder the bulk of the operational roles...   More to follow.

TR
On September 1, 2004, following a request by the AU, the Minister of National Defence, Bill Graham, announced that DND would provide army supplies, valued at $250,000, to the African Union. These supplies were to assist the AU in its efforts to provide security and stabilization in the Darfur region of Sudan.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Operations/augural/index_e.asp
 
No offence but I wpould not trust the AU troops to pour piss out of a boot.

Once again the "civilized" nations turn a shoulder and ignore crisis in black Africa...


It is a lose - lose situation, but lets just be honest WE as a nation dont care, personally it makes me sick.
 
Blakey:

Right - that's the current stuff.  I was referring to the new "expanded" role.  If I recall correctly, the first involvement (mentioned on the DND website) included donations of tac vests, helmets, etc., but not vehicles.

Much is up in the air right now and I've seen nothing new since I posted last week.  Methinks there is much scrambling around in Ottawa at the moment, given the political situation and the Sudanese attitude to all of this.

TR
 
An editorial from The Toronto Sun:

Prime Minister Paul Martin's latest attempt to save his political hide by horse-trading with the safety of Canadian soldiers is not only alarming, it's dangerous.

In a bid to win the support of former Liberal MP David Kilgour in the non-confidence vote his government faces this Thursday, Martin last week announced Canada will send $170 million in military aid and an initial contingent of up to 100 soldiers to war-torn Sudan.

Kilgour, who quit the Liberal party a month ago to sit as an independent, has made a major Canadian military intervention in Darfur, Sudan, where up to 300,000 people have been killed and two million displaced in a bloody civil war, his price for supporting the Liberals.

After Martin made his proposal last Thursday, Kilgour, who wants 500 Canadian soldiers sent to Sudan, dismissed it as tokenism, adding Martin had a week to do better.

But what Martin is doing -- potentially endangering the lives of our soldiers by bargaining with one MP over the role of our military in Sudan -- is even worse than his ongoing attempts to buy the next election by bribing taxpayers with their own money.

Canadians have already seen the disastrous results that can happen, for everyone, from an ill-planned military mission -- in Somalia. This whole idea that our foreign policy could be set by a prime minister desperate to cling to power via bargaining with one individual is simply appalling.

How we got here is instructive.

When Kilgour, who in 1990 was expelled from the Conservative party for opposing the GST, quit the Liberals a month ago, Martin said good riddance.

"Mr. Kilgour feels he doesn't belong in our caucus, so be it," Martin said at the time. "I'm not interested in working with those who won't stand with their colleagues when it comes to cleaning up the sponsorship problems."

While the latter part of this statement is bizarre -- who said anything about Kilgour being soft on AdScam? -- Kilgour has previously said that while Martin has been consulting with him about Darfur, "there was no bargain, no linkage, between how I would vote and Darfur."

Well, it sure appears as if there is one now.

Kilgour is aware of the enormous stakes here.

As he told CTV's Question Period last week: "I don't want to see Canadian soldiers killed. But Canada has to stand for something in the world."

Yes, it does -- and we don't doubt Kilgour's passion on this issue. But Canada has to stand for more than using its soldiers as the bargaining chips of a panicked prime minister.

Canada may indeed have a role to play in ending the slaughter of innocents in Darfur by the notorious Sudanese-backed militia known as the Janjaweed. But this is not the way to decide it.

P

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/Commentary/2005/05/16/1041371.html
 
Military Aid, Logistics Support is great, but any thing less than a REIN Inf. Bn. is token support. 
 
Talking to an aid worker who just returned from two months in Darfur. I'm not an infantry person and nor is he, but you're going to need some ground pounders from the sounds of it. It's a total mess. The AU soldiers are praying for intervention by the Americans, French...anyone. They do little more than guard the camps and provide personal guards to aid workers.( I have this photograph of one being escorted by three Central African Republic soldiers). They simply don't have the training and professionalism. The Janjaweed travel by camel, operate in broad daylight with inpunity, own the countryside and do as they please i.e killing people, burning villages, even taking pot shots at the people and aid workers inside the camps. Most people in the camps are sick - dysentery. I got an interesting rundown on the different attributes of each AU contigent from his perspective. The Gambians were the most cooperative, but the Rwandans are the only ones who have showed any backbone and competence. They would like nothing more than go after the Janjaweed but are under orders not to, which frustrates them to no end.

No doubt, something needs to be done...
 
â Å“Oh what a tangled web we weave ...â ? and all that.

Here is more from today's Globe and Mail at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050517/DARFUR17/TPNational/?query=Darfur

Ottawa to comply with ban on troops in Darfur

By DANIEL LEBLANC
Tuesday, May 17, 2005 Page A8

OTTAWA -- Canada will respect the will of the Sudanese government and not send its troops into the ravaged Sudanese region of Darfur, senior federal officials said yesterday in response to Khartoum's cool reception of a recent Canadian aid proposal.

Federal officials moved to appease the concerns of the Sudanese in relation to last week's $170-million proposal, which included a plan to send up to 100 Canadian troops to Sudan.

The plan never stated that troops would go into Darfur, but it didn't reject that notion, raising concerns among Sudanese officials, who say that only African troops should enter the region.

Canadian officials insisted yesterday they will act in concert with the African Union, which is spearheading the assistance effort in Darfur. As a result, any Canadian troops sent to Sudan are likely to work out of the capital city of Khartoum.

"As much as we would like to be helpful in terms of action on the ground, it's clear the United Nations has authorized the African Union to do this mission, and the African Union and the Sudanese have told us, 'No European, no non-African troops,' " Defence Minister Bill Graham said.

Retired general Roméo Dallaire, who is now a senator, said it would be a mistake to go against the will of Sudan.

"What we don't need are Canadian troops fighting their way into Darfur and, before getting there, having to fight against the Sudanese," Mr. Dallaire said in an interview.

Last week, Sudan's ambassador to Canada, Faiza Hassan Taha, said her country will not allow Western peacekeeping troops into Darfur. Ms. Taha also criticized Ottawa's announcement, which she said was done without proper consultations. Rather than meaningful consultation, she said, Canada presented Sudan with a fait accompli.

Canadian officials said yesterday the assistance package could still be improved at a donors conference in Ethiopia next week. However, a senior official said the package will not be augmented between now and Thursday, when the minority Liberal government faces a confidence vote.

An independent MP, David Kilgour, has said that he could vote with the Liberals if the Sudan package is boosted to include a commitment of 500 Canadian combat troops to help protect more than two million refugees.

But Canadian officials said there will be no changes in coming days.

Human-rights groups say the Khartoum regime, a military dictatorship, has been inattentive to the rapes and murders of thousands of Darfur farmers by marauding militias known as janjaweed.

Last week, Mr. Martin pledged the $170-million assistance package for Darfur that includes an "initial" deployment of up to 100 Canadian military intelligence officers, strategic planners and logistics experts.

The Prime Minister did not specify whether these soldiers would go into the Darfur region -- a vast area where 300,000 have died in the past two years -- or be confined to an African Union headquarters outside the region.

He said there might be a larger Canadian deployment down the road of "whatever troops or whatever military advisers" are needed by the African Union.

But just two months ago, in the March 9th Globe and Mail Jane Taber reported that:â ? Former lieutenant-general Roméo Dallaire urged international action to stop the violence in Sudan, evoking Wednesday the decade-old massacres in Rwanda to give weight to his plea.â ?  International action with Canadian cash and platitudes but no troops is, I guess, the extent of our new, improved commitment to international peace and security.

Sheesh!

 
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