Conflict in Darfur, Sudan - The Mega Thread

[P-Free]

1/2 of the Middle East and 2/3 of Africa..take your pick.

 

[Canadian Sig]

....That is if we don't accept the ISAF Command group, and just move back to Warehouse.

:'(

Cant even begin to describe how large the rumor mill is around 2 Sigs regarding this.

 

[spenco]

I apoligize if this has been posted elsewhere.

Canadian soldiers likely bound for Sudan
Last Updated Fri, 06 May 2005 11:58:50 EDT
CBC News
OTTAWA - Canada is making plans to send peacekeeping troops to the war-ravaged Darfur region of Sudan by summer's end. 

The head of Canada's military returned recently from meeting with leaders of the African Union peacekeeping force that Canadian units would support.

"This is a complex and relatively dangerous environment," Gen. Rick Hillier told CBC News.

Hillier said he has more than 30 officers working on the project but was mum on the specifics until he presents several options this week to Defence Minister Bill Graham.

The minister wants military intervention to be only one part of an overall plan for the northeastern African country.

"We cannot invade Sudan. It requires United Nations action ... it requires political as well as military and aid matters," Graham told CBC.

The two-year-old Darfur conflict, stemming from the fallout of a peace deal to end the country's decades-old civil war, has driven about two million people from their villages to live in camps and killed 300,000 others.

Canada has already marked $20 million in aid to the African Union, a continent-wide association of states that will lead peacekeeping in Darfur.

Peacekeepers must overcome the obstacles of few roads and runways in an area the size of France.

  The Darfur region of Sudan. 
Prime Minister Paul Martin has pledged a greater Canadian commitment to Darfur and was expected to make an announcement within days.

He said Wednesday the conflict "is one of the most important tests as to how the West is prepared to come to the aid of Africa."

Martin met earlier this week with David Kilgour, a former Liberal MP who now sits as an independent.

Kilgour is a strong proponent of sending Canadian troops to Darfur. Kilgour and the prime minister denied the meeting was an attempt to prop up the Liberals' shaky minority government.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Mr. Martin said he's not shopping for votes. He's been concerned about Darfur for some time.

Once again, life imitates Top Gun: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092099/quotes

Iceman: [coughs whilst saying] Bullsh*t.

 

[BIGMAN]

Wow, you guys are given me a lot to look forward to. I was worried I was gonna come out of RMC and become a paper pusher. I had a feeling the CF would be goin in to the Sudan sooner or later but I never heard any kind of offical talk about it.

 

[George Wallace]

This is all 'old news'.  We have been slated to go to the Sudan for over two years now and we still haven't gone.  Too many other factors involved.  The NATO Quick Reaction Force, that we were supposed to be part of has yet to gel completely.  Politics in that Region of Africa are still too unstable to introduce our Troops as part of this NATO Force.  NDHQ has probably conducted numerous feasibility studies and come up with numerous options in their planning processes, but the Government seems to be lacking in any decisiveness dealing with the subject.  What does Foreign Affairs have in their corner?  Funding?  Transport?  It is another "Wait and Shoot" situation.  Meanwhile Units will be tasked and train as part of their 'tour' as QRF or IRU and go nowhere.

 

[Armymedic]

  Meanwhile Units will be tasked and train as part of their 'tour' as QRF or IRU and go nowhere.

Except back to Afghanistan

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is from today's Globe and Mail web edition at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050507.wsudan0507/BNStory/National/

Canada to send up to 150 troops to Sudan: source

Source also reveals that Canada will hand over some old military equipment to the African mission

Saturday, May 7, 2005 Updated at 4:36 PM EDT
Canadian Press

Ottawa â ” Canada will send up to 150 military personnel to Sudan to help the African Union and a United Nations mission keep the peace in the war-torn African country, The Canadian Press has learned.

Ottawa will also shore up its support for the African mission by handing over some old military equipment and likely adding to the $20-million in humanitarian support it has already given to Sudan, a source said.

But whether the announcement â ” expected within days, and which could also include diplomatic efforts â ” is enough to assuage independent MP David Kilgour remains to be seen.

Mr. Kilgour has said Canada's response to Sudan will be a major factor in his decision to lend his critical support to the minority government in a confidence vote expected May 18.

The government announcement will not include a major military force, said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Rather, the troops involved will act as short-term advisers, mechanics, trainers and planning staff.

"We're looking at a suite of different options, including giving them some pretty substantial pieces of equipment," said the highly placed Defence Department source. "This isn't just a defence package.

"What is not on that menu of options is a large-scale deployment of troops on the ground in the actual affected area."

Canada has already committed 31 soldiers to act as advisers to the African Union mission based in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, which is responsible for the hard-hit Darfur region, and the UN Standing High-Readiness Brigade in Khartoum.

Ottawa will increase that commitment "by a factor of five or less," said the source. The exact number will depend on what the forces in-theatre say they need.

Ottawa has also leased helicopters for the African Union force. It is now contemplating other transportation options Canada no longer requires, including surplus vehicles "with some protection" â ” not Iltis jeeps.

Western nations have been urging the Khartoum-based government to halt attacks by government-aligned Arab militias. The militias launched a counter-insurgency campaign in 2003 against ethnic African rebels.

The rebels began their fight over what they view as discrimination by the Arab-dominated government.

Known as the Janjaweed, the militias have committed wide-scale abuses against tribes they say are allied with the rebels.

The two-year conflict in Darfur has left at least 180,000 people dead, many through disease and hunger, and has displaced more than two million people, says the UN.

In an interview Friday, Mr. Kilgour suggested he's willing to help topple the government if he disapproves of its military policy.

He reacted strongly to remarks by Defence Minister Bill Graham, who has said Canada "cannot invade Sudan."

"It requires United Nations action," Mr. Graham said. "It requires co-ordination with the African Union. It requires political as well as military and aid matters."

Mr. Kilgour called Mr. Graham's comments "fear-mongering."

"I don't think [it] becomes him or becomes the office, or is at all helpful at a time when 4,000 people a week are being murdered or raped," Mr. Kilgour said.

"To me it's grossly irresponsible for a defence minister to be saying that. If he thinks he's going to win friends and influence people by that kind of statement â ” including in a [confidence] vote next Thursday â ” he's sadly wrong."

In a recent meeting with Prime Minister Paul Martin, Mr. Kilgour said he requested boots on the ground in Sudan, plus equipment like helicopters, food, medicine and money. He also wants Canada to boost its foreign aid to get it closer to 0.7 per cent of the gross domestic product.

"There was clearly an understanding that a major initiative would be undertaken by Canada, both militarily and in terms of aid for Darfur."

Mr. Kilgour says the situation requires a multilateral force â ” probably NATO. But the African Union has clearly stated it does not want or need such a force, Graham said.

"We'd have to go in, in combination with the African Union," said Mr. Kilgour.

"Logistical support is required â ” all kinds of things that Canada and all kinds of countries could use to stop the slaughter, in partnership with the African Union."

Justin Laku, an Ottawa resident, said he recently toured displaced-persons camps in Darfur and saw victims of ritualistic rape first-hand. He said he knows of camps where refugees are being murdered by militiamen.

"The Janjaweed comes in and rounds up women every night," Laku said in an interview. "They round them up, they rape them and they leave them there.

"They [the African Union] say: 'We can only document their crimes but we cannot fight back. We cannot protect because we don't have money."'

Mr. Kilgour said he'd likely issue a news release an hour or two before the crucial Commons vote saying which way he'll go.

He said right now he's "dead-centre" on the issue.

The Liberals plus the NDP have 151 votes to keep Martin's Liberal government alive, if everyone shows up and if Carolyn Parrish does, as she suggests she will, vote with them.  The Conservative and the Bloq have 153 votes to topple the government.  There are two undecided: Kilgour and BC Independent (former Alliance) MP Chuck Cadman.  (There is one vacancy and the speaker votes only to break a tie; 151+153+2+1+1=308)  If Kilgour finds Martin's offering acceptable then the Liberals need only, either:

1. Buy Cadman; or

2. Hope and pray that the two Conservatives undergoing cancer treatment are too sick mto come to Ottawa.

I repeat:

The government announcement will not include a major military force, said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Rather, the troops involved will act as short-term advisers, mechanics, trainers and planning staff.

"We're looking at a suite of different options, including giving them some pretty substantial pieces of equipment," said the highly placed Defence Department source. "This isn't just a defence package.

"What is not on that menu of options is a large-scale deployment of troops on the ground in the actual affected area."

 

[jc5778]

Canada to send up to 150 troops to Sudan: report
Last Updated Sat, 07 May 2005 17:04:13 EDT
CBC News

OTTAWA - Canada will deploy up to 150 military personnel as peacekeepers to war-torn Sudan, according to a report.

    * INDEPTH: Sudan

A child refugee from Darfur washes clothes outside her shack at the Iridimi refugee camp near Iriba in eastern Chad, September 2004 (AP File Photo)

Ottawa would also donate some used military equipment, and increase the amount of humanitarian aid for the Northeast African country.

An official announcement was due within days, the Canadian Press reported Saturday.

The Liberal government has already earmarked $20 million in aid for Sudan. And On Friday, Gen. Rick Hillier told CBC News that Canada was making plans to send troops to the Darfur region of Sudan by the end of the summer.

    * FROM YESTERDAY: Canadian soldiers likely bound for Sudan

Darfur is the western province of Sudan, where government-backed militia are accused of killing thousands of locals because of political, ethnic and religious differences.

At least 180,000 people have died and more than 2 million others displaced in two years of conflict there.

Canada has also already promised 31 soldiers to act as advisers to an African Union mission based in neighbour Ethiopia's capital, Addis Ababa.

The additional Canadian military personnel would serve as short-term advisers, mechanics and trainers, CP reported, citing an anonymous source.

The Liberal minority government's renewed sense of urgency to deal with what the United Nations has called the world's worst humanitarian crisis may be connected to a looming confidence vote in parliament that could come as early as May 18.

Paul Martin's administration will need every single vote of support that it can garner from NDP or independent members of parliament to survive that scenario.

David Kilgour, who quit the Liberal caucus to sit as an independent MP recently, has said a tougher Canadian response to the Darfur crisis would be important in helping him make up his mind to support the government when it comes to such a vote.

 

[Zartan]

I'll be amazed if they (the government) actually are able to send that many troops there and be able to provide support without allied assistance. Let's face it, the Hercs can't even get there without stopping in Europe, plus considering how much equipment they would have to tag along with them would probably take 3 months to move(considering how many Hercs actually work ). I would think it alot more plausible to send more troops to Haiti or something. It would be easier - we could send ships (?), whereas we couldn't to Sudan.
However, we do owe the Sudanese Christians something. Remember the accusations against Calgary's Talisman Energy regarding the Sudanese genocide a couple years ago? According to human rights groups, Talisman's actions assisted the extremely endebted Islamic Government launch new offenses against the Sudanese Liberation Army, and the southern territory.
In terms of continuity, though, this would be another extension of the war on terrorism. When Osama Bin Laden was living in the Sudan in the late 1990's, he established a number of training facilities, al-Qaeda cells, and communications networks throughout the country. But perhaps the most disturbing was his establishment of a successful slave trade based out of Sudan, where the government's christian peoples could be sold as a means of funding terrorist activities. You can be sure many of the slaves traded were from Darfur. :skull:

 

[Britney Spears]

Do you have a cite for any of the stuff you just posted?

 

[Zartan]

Yes: (unless you ment "site", as in website);
The book: "Al-Qaeda, Brotherhood of Terror", by Paul L. Williams, a consultant on international terrorism and organised crime for the FBI.
And the article: "Oil Patch Pariah", by Andrew Nikiforuk, from 12-10-99 edition of Canadian Business. That should cover my info on Sudan.

 

[Britney Spears]

Yes: (unless you ment "site", as in website);

Thanks, I meant cite as in the verb form of "Citation", which is different from what you have presented. What you posted are called "References".

Obviously, a direct link to some of your sources would strengthen your argument, you're presenting the statements, so I would expect you to provide the evidence and do the research, not tell your audience to go read a book.

 

[Zartan]

Here you go:
http://elibrary.bigchalk.com/libweb/curriculumca/do/document?set=search&groupid=1&requestid=lib_canada&resultid=1&edition=&ts=62C0C3BD9B5AC045364B0CFCBE5FE34F_1115654263713&urn=urn%3Abigchalk%3AUS%3BBCLib%3Bdocument%3B33500066
copy this and check it out - this is the article which I referred to. If you print it off, it is four pages long. This covers most of what I said regarding the Sudanese government. I'm afraid the rest is in the book I talked about. However, I figure that news articles on the homepage may also be of some relevance. But in case you are wondering, after Bin Laden was exiled from Saudi Arabia (or left , I'm not sure), he took up residence in Sudan, where he lived before going to Afghanistan.

 

[BruceR]

Zartan, the residents of the Darfur region, in the west of the country are Muslim, being oppressed by the country's Muslim majority. Sudanese oppression and enslavement of the Christian minority in south Sudan, which the Talisman controversy was linked to (before the company divested from Sudan in 2003), is an entirely separate issue, involving a different part of what is a very large country. As written your post could be misleading to people who don't know the situation.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

In exchange for not voting to bring down the government, former Liberal MP David Kilgour appears to have secured a government commitment to do what, just a few weeks ago, it said it could not do: increase 'aid' to Darfur.

Update:

Kilgour criticizes Liberals' Sudan package

By ALLISON DUNFIELD
Thursday, May 12, 2005 Updated at 12:25 PM EDT
Globe and Mail Update

Independent MP David Kilgour was harshly critical Thursday of a $170-million Liberal aid package and additional troops for Sudan â ” a move widely seen as an attempt to win him over before a confidence vote.

Prime Minister Paul Martin announced Thursday morning that Canda would provide the funding over two years for peacekeeping efforts in the war-torn region.

"To get the job done, the African Union needs more training, it needs better equipment for its troops. Canada will answer the call," Mr. Martin said Thursday.

Mr. Martin also announced an initial 100 troops for the region but said that number could be increased. "The Canadian Forces' military experts who will operate in a technical and strategic support role to the african union, and some will also participate in the UN mission in southern Sudan because both areas are essential to peace and progress in the region. All of this is with a single view, and that is to protecting innocent civilians, families, most of whom are refugees," the Prime Minister said.

But Mr. Kilgour indicated earlier in the day that he may not be happy enough with what the government is offering to vote along with the Liberals.

The Liberals need the support of all three independents in a confidence vote, including Mr. Kilgour.

With such an unstable minority, the Liberals need the three independents, all the NDP and possibly the Speaker of the House to break a tie, in order to win a confidence vote.

Mr. Kilgour indicated that Sudan is not an issue to play politics with.

"This does not require a vote in the House. What is being asked by the students and in fact by canadians and people around the world and those suffering in Darfur. This requires action.

"It requires political will, and that's what we need to see happen," he said during a press conference in Ottawa on Thursday with a number of MPs from the Conservative, NDP and Bloc Québécois parties.

He said the government's offer of troops is inadequate.

It was first reported that the Liberals would provide 60 troops, although Mr. Martin said Thursday that there would be at least 100.

Mr. Kilgour, who has recently returned from a visit to the Darfur region of Suday, has said he wants to see rapid deployment of Canadian troops there before committing himself to backing the government.

"I am afraid if it is 60 Canadian military advisers announced in an hour, that are going to do not very much to stop a genocide taking place in an area the size of France," Mr. Kilgour said. "Would 60 troops have been an acceptable response in Bosnia or Kosovo? I think the answer is no.

"I don't see how that will stop the mass murder and mass rape" in the region, he said.
Mr. Kilgour said at least 500 troops would be necessary to begin to bring about stability in the area.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050512.wsudn0512/BNStory/National/

 

[cbt arms sub tech]

Guess the minister announced today, 100 troops will head to Sudan, not much info out about it, anyone know anything more, perhaps from the bases?

 

[KevinB]

I think GO might have a bit of info when they get back from their predeployment trg... 

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

It isn't infantry - not the main force anyway.  From what I have been told, we're sending "technical experts" as advisors to the African Union.  There may be some equipment involved (Grizzlies?), to be donated to the Africans, who will shoulder the bulk of the operational roles...  More to follow.

TR

 

[Marauder]

Daaaamn, this country is fucked up.

You can bet if Dubya threw out a multi-mil BG to some pissant African country just to keep *one* Congressman in heel there's be shit to pay down there. Here, it's just the Liebrals committing business as usual. Disgusting.