Conflict in Darfur, Sudan - The Mega Thread

[Cloud Cover]

- Now THAT is a FANTASTIC idea!  We need a 2nd Mac/Pap Bn!  This will draw the action oriented progressives out of school and into the dirt.  They can listen to Toto sing "Africa" on their MP3 players between bouts of getting their arses kicked in Darfur.  Like the earlier Mac/Pap Bn, this will be a great way of getting rid of a generation's worth of the most dangerous of our own Commie rabble rousers: the ones who would take up arms.

And when they get into serious trouble on day 4 of their little expedition, you'll just be over there saving their asses and finishing the job for them, while the survivors that ran away tell you how to do it right.

 

[cplcaldwell]

I don't think Senator Dallaire is out of line at all.

He has the sheen of the glorious defeated to him, sort of a latter day Robert E Lee. He did the job with what he had, and for the most part, based on the limitations of resources, the idiotic mandate and the sheer magnitude of the tragedy, failed.

He is quite right to raise hackles on Darfur, from everything I see in the media it's a real mess. The point is, unless some nasty imperialistic nation invokes the right to self-defence, the African Union, the UN and the Sudanese are not going to give in for any number of reasons.

Senator Dallaire should be screaming about this, maybe after he screams loud enough some real arm twisting will begin. At some point in time after that we may actually see the genesis of a solution. Thousands will die in the interim.

As for a new "Mac Pap" battalion. Given the magnitude of the problem. Shouldn't we really be talking in terms of a new "Mac Pap" DIVISION?

 

[patrick666]

So long as the country does not have strategic value to the "1st world", this 3rd world country will continue to be living hell.

Unfortunately, truer words never spoken.

The latest celebrity hype is to "help Africa" spearheaded by the Brad and Angelina types on some sort of personal crusade to revoke the tyranny of centuries passed with a blank cheque. Unfortunately, these funds and aid programs only serve and support militia governments with arms to contine the slaughter.

 

[Journeyman]

....sort of a latter day Robert E Lee.

I will bitch-slap you into the middle of next year if you ever again dare to compare Senator Dallaire to that fine gentleman from Stratford Virginia!

Heretic! 

 

[cplcaldwell]

Why?

It's narrow comparison but it has validity.

Lee had respect of many, adversaries and allies for his whole life becuase he used the tools he had to do the job he felt (knew) was his duty. So did Dallaire (perhaps except that he does not have your respect).

 

[2 Cdo]

I don't think Senator Dallaire is out of line at all.

He has the sheen of the glorious defeated to him, sort of a latter day Robert E Lee. He did the job with what he had, and for the most part, based on the limitations of resources, the idiotic mandate and the sheer magnitude of the tragedy, failed.

He is quite right to raise hackles on Darfur, from everything I see in the media it's a real mess. The point is, unless some nasty imperialistic nation invokes the right to self-defence, the African Union, the UN and the Sudanese are not going to give in for any number of reasons.

Senator Dallaire should be screaming about this, maybe after he screams loud enough some real arm twisting will begin. At some point in time after that we may actually see the genesis of a solution. Thousands will die in the interim.

As for a new "Mac Pap" battalion. Given the magnitude of the problem. Shouldn't we really be talking in terms of a new "Mac Pap" DIVISION?

Senator Daillaire should just sit quietly in the corner and shut his gob! ANYTHING he says is not worth listening to! :threat:

 

[a_majoor]

As for a new "Mac Pap" battalion. Given the magnitude of the problem. Shouldn't we really be talking in terms of a new "Mac Pap" DIVISION?

Show me 20,000 "Progressives" who are willing to step up to the plate and take real action (as opposed to whinging from the sidelines) and I will form the training cadre.

In fact, I wonder if it would even be possible to form a Progressive battalion of modern Canadian size (@ 550 soldiers).

Lucky for all of us there are plenty of not so progressive Canadians who are willing to put on the uniform and stand up for what needs to be done, and people in the political arena who can make realistic cost/benefit calculations so the lives of our servicemembers are not wasted on some quixotic quest with little or no connection to our national interest.

 

[Journeyman]

Lee had respect of many, adversaries and allies for his whole life becuase he used the tools he had to do the job he felt (knew) was his duty. So did Dallaire (perhaps except that he does not have your respect).

Perhaps I should have included a ";D" to indicate my initial degree of seriousness. Since you wish to drag this out, however, you are correct; I do not respect Dallaire. Call me old-fashioned, but I still believe respect must be earned.

I worked for him when he commanded 5CMBG - - and I respected him immensely.

I watched Rwanda, and knew many of the troops who were sent from the recently disbanded Airborne, and I pitied him.

I've since watched the abysmal level to which he's sunk into mindless, destructive partisan politics and I've lost all respect for him.

If I may echo the sentiment of MGen Lew MacKenzie (yet again): http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/060608/cit/060608bq.htm

 

[cplcaldwell]

Journeyman, thank you for the reply.

I figured your initial blast was a bit of a  ;D, so I didn't go there. Not to worry. Sometimes these boards are a contact sport!

I see your point,

I've since watched the abysmal level to which he's sunk into mindless, destructive partisan politics and I've lost all respect for him.

given your obvious familarity with the subject. I respect your opinion.

I can't get to the MGen MacKenzie link but I am sure it's instructive.

a_majoor. Perhaps I too should have included  ;D in my reference to the "Mac Pap" !

Dragging out complete, let's move on.

 

[scoutfinch]

JM:

Before we start accusing Dallaire of playing destructive partisan politics, let's not forget that MGen MacKenzie also was actively involved in the Progressive Conservative party before its demise.  He is equally *guilty* of engaging in partisan politics post retirement.  (I  say *guilty* with emphasis because there are no prohibitions on former soldiers being politically active.)

Do not misconstrue this comment as an attack on MGen MacKenzie as I hold him the highest regard and have been privileged to be acquainted with him for over 20 years. 

 

[Journeyman]

I can't get to the MGen MacKenzie link but I am sure it's instructive

Quoted verbatim at: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/44896/post-392052.html#msg392052

Before we start accusing Dallaire of playing destructive partisan politics, let's not forget that MGen MacKenzie also was actively involved in the Progressive Conservative party before its demise.

...but if one agrees with the partisan, it's not destructive.  <<<------please note.

In the case of Dallaire's politics, I was referring to:

- 2004 (prior to his Senate appointment), Dallaire calls for western/NATO military intervention to stop the genocide

- as Senator, toeing the Liberal party line to merely provide the useless African Union force with some logistic support and "a handful of advisers," he states that those calling for "western intervention were recommending a racist solution: 'Anybody who says that the era of the white man going into Africa and sorting out their problems [is] disconnected from the reality of Africa'."

- The Liberal defeat brought his current, renewed call for western intervention in Darfur. (Does this now make him a racist?  : )1


His logic, and hence suitability to provide any political leadership for my country, is dependent solely upon which way the wind is blowing.

If one does a search of "Dallaire" on this site, there are 5 pages of results; I think I'm done here.2

---------------------
1. See link above
2. Yes, I know my opinion is valued [my mom thought so, anyway]....but really, I'm done 

 

[MarkOttawa]

So do "progessives", whilst wanting us out of Afstan, want us to invade Sudan?  Wouldn't we then also be war-mongering as Bush's poodle?

Sudan legislator sees conspiracy in UN move for Darfur mission
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/12/news/darfur.php

A senior Sudanese lawmaker on Tuesday accused Kofi Annan, the secretary general of the United Nations, of spearheading a conspiracy against the African country over a plan to deploy UN peacekeepers in the war-torn Darfur region.

The United States is leading the conspiracy [my emphasis--and it is true that the US is trying, along with the UK, to get something done while other countries are really not doing anything], which "began as a political campaign in the UN and is now taking the form of a military intervention," Ismail Haj Mussa, a senior member of the Sudanese Parliament, told Radio Omdurman, a state-run station.

The United Nations has been trying to persuade Sudan to allow the world body to take over an African Union peacekeeping force that has been unable to stop the violence in Darfur. But President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan has repeatedly rejected the proposal, saying that it would violahis ate the country's sovereignty. He has warned that his army would fight any UN forces sent to Darfur [my emphasis]...

Mark
Ottawa

 

[TCBF]

"As for a new "Mac Pap" battalion. Given the magnitude of the problem. Shouldn't we really be talking in terms of a new "Mac Pap" DIVISION?"

- Back in the day, yer home-grown commie had a little more intestinal fortitude - hence the Mac-Paps.  Nowadays, our cocktail socialists want us to fight their revolution for them.

 

[a_majoor]

"As for a new "Mac Pap" battalion. Given the magnitude of the problem. Shouldn't we really be talking in terms of a new "Mac Pap" DIVISION?"

- Back in the day, yer home-grown commie had a little more intestinal fortitude - hence the Mac-Paps.  Nowadays, our cocktail socialists want us to fight their revolution for them.

Sounds about right. Here are some pictures of these sort of people in action in the United States

http://www.zombietime.com/anarchist_bookfair_march_18_2006/

http://www.zombietime.com/anarchist_bookfair_march_18_2006/

The death squads would be so busy laughing the people of Dafur might have a chance to run away.......

 

[Cloud Cover]

Can we photo shop some pics of Jack Layton and Stephen Staples in there?

 

[warspite]

Show me 20,000 "Progressives" who are willing to step up to the plate and take real action (as opposed to whinging from the sidelines) and I will form the training cadre.

In fact, I wonder if it would even be possible to form a Progressive battalion of modern Canadian size (@ 550 soldiers).

Simple... press gang the NDP conventions ;D
The mind may not be willing but the flesh is able.

 

[GAP]

September 13, 2006 edition

Pressure ratchets up over Darfur
an update

A deadline is raising tensions and stakes in a UN-Khartoum showdown.
By Howard LaFranchi | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0913/p01s02-wogi.html?s=hns

UNITED NATIONS, N.Y. – With time running out on the African Union's peacekeeping force in Darfur, the United Nations may find out if the international community has the ability to stop renewed genocide.
A decade after the world looked on as hundreds of thousands of people died in Rwanda and Bosnia, Sudan's region of Darfur is emerging as a test of whether the world can do better this time. Key governments are pressing Sudanese authorities in Khartoum to accept an extension of the African Union force's mandate that runs out at the end of the month. Such a move, international leaders hope, would give time for a more sizable UN force, already approved by the Security Council, to prepare and deploy.
More on link

 

[TCBF]

Right.

1 and 2 Bdes get the 'Ghan, 5 Bde gets Darfur. Everybody gets happy. 

Next.

 

[cplcaldwell]

This one is for Journeyman.....

Dallaire wants young to rally for Darfur intervention

Canadian Press

OTTAWA — Roméo Dallaire wants young Canadians to go out in the streets and promote international action to end what he calls a human catastrophe in Darfur.

The senator and retired general is promoting a Sunday rally in Toronto that he hopes will draw young people to activism on behalf of the beleaguered region of Sudan.

He says his hope is that young people can prod the populace and the government into spearheading an international effort to stabilize Darfur and end the fighting which has killed thousands of people.

Justin Trudeau is to be the emcee of the Toronto rally, one of many scheduled around the world.

Mr. Dallaire, who led the ill-fated United Nations mission during the Rwandan genocide, is also pushing for a major international force to go into Sudan and stabilize Darfur.

He hopes Canada will be willing to provide money and up to 600 troops for that mission.

Reproduced from the Globe and Mail Under the Fair Dealings Provisions of the Copyright Act, RSC


Gotta love that a Trudeau is in there too eh?

 

[George Wallace]

What an opportunity!

If we send a couple of tractor trailers of uniforms and a couple full of boots, we can file them all through   Put them on a bus.  Bus them out to Peason and put them on our Airbus and fly them all over to Darfur.    Problem solved.  Dallaire can go and give them briefings enroute.   ;D  It is after all, a ten to twelve hour flight.