Combat Boots policy 2018-CANFORGEN 127/18

[dimsum]

The US Military struggled with the same problems for years, now they have a list of 12+ different boots/boot manufacturers that are AR670-1/Berry compliant and are approved for wear. They purchased the boots using their Uniform allowance.

They've had this system in place for 10 years and there's no sign of it changing.

The difference is that they have that many US manufacturers, which make it Berry compliant.  We don't, so if "buy Canadian" becomes a requirement then we're stuck to the same 1-2 producers.

 

[Gunner98]

Greb was the boot manufacturer that provided us boots up to 1987:
In 1974, Greb Industries Limited was purchased by Warrington Products Limited of Mississauga. The company continued to manufacture footwear under the new owners, but the Greb division was then sold in 1987. The Bauer skate division, operating as Canstar Sports, had been relocated to Cambridge and was eventually sold to Nike. The last Greb plant in Kitchener, a Kodiak boot plant on Hayward Avenue, closed its doors in 1991. (Source: https://doorsclosedwaterloo.wordpress.com/greb-industries/)

I think at that time DND/CAF opted/had to go with H.H. Brown and then important shoe quotas were dropped. 

The deterioration in the Canadian share of the domestic market caused shoe manufacturers to seek the protection of the federal government against the flood of imports. The industry maintains that the current market share, less than 50%, threatens the survival not only of the Canadian footwear industry but also of related industries (eg, the leather industry) and many suppliers. In response to the shoe manufacturers' briefs, the government instituted protective measures against imports in 1977 by imposing quotas on all footwear coming into Canada. Quotas were to be in effect until December 1988. (Source: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/footwear-industry/)

Propping up failing Canadian industries through GCA/DND/CAF Buy Canadian rules have ensured that low cost, compliant contractors created ineffective clothing and footwear for soldiers for decades.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

IIRC, the RCAF clunkers in service now are produced by Terra...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Any bets on if Canadian companies are lining up to try and sue the government for denying them an opportunity to make shitty boots for the militaty?

 

[garb811]

Probably too much to hope that someone would be consolidating the data from the boots that people are going to be buying during phase 1 and taking a serious look at making the top "x" number of models the pre-approved list.  That would mean admitting knowing that the troops know what is best for them though.

 

[Furniture]

Was just looking at the Lowa and Danner sites for Canada. Seems there are a few decent looking options right now... Can't wait for higher to come down with the base policy. Where I work most wear the army boots that failed, so I imagine the RCAF will take a more enlightened approach to boots than anticipated by some, seems the people fixing planes need RCAF boots more than the rest of us on a Wing. The heaviest thing I carry most days at work is a coffee cup, and the hopes and dreams of a few Cpls... nothing that requires a safety toe.

To be honest I'd take a blanket statement allowing me to buy my own boots, even without reimbursement. I hate that my GP boots have my feet swimming in sweat after a few hours even in the dead of winter.

 

[ballz]

Probably too much to hope that someone would be consolidating the data from the boots that people are going to be buying during phase 1 and taking a serious look at making the top "x" number of models the pre-approved list.  That would mean admitting knowing that the troops know what is best for them though.

The Army SM put out for a return on types of boots a few months ago... I thought for sure it was for an interim solution, not an actual boot allowance. Anyway, on the acims site for the G4 boot working group, he has a presentation on some of the more popular ones. For instance, it states that the Rocky SV2s were the only boot that was received from all Divisions.

However, I question how well-executed this return was. I work in a Div HQ so I received it from the senior non-com that works in my cell who received it from the HQ SM.. however, I know a lot of Combat Arms folks in our Div HQ that never received it... so I can only imagine if it didn't even make from L1 to L2 properly just how many people at unit level were solicited...

Hopefully they take another kick at that one...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Rocky's are solid (har har).

When I was LPOing boots the supply tech gave me the "old" order form and explained that Rockys werent an option on the new form- which is crazy

 

[Bzzliteyr]

The Army SM put out for a return on types of boots a few months ago... I thought for sure it was for an interim solution, not an actual boot allowance. Anyway, on the acims site for the G4 boot working group, he has a presentation on some of the more popular ones. For instance, it states that the Rocky SV2s were the only boot that was received from all Divisions.

However, I question how well-executed this return was. I work in a Div HQ so I received it from the senior non-com that works in my cell who received it from the HQ SM.. however, I know a lot of Combat Arms folks in our Div HQ that never received it... so I can only imagine if it didn't even make from L1 to L2 properly just how many people at unit level were solicited...

Hopefully they take another kick at that one...

I'm a G3 guy and I *think* some of us filled out that questionnaire. I'm not sure it moved higher or not.

Have a link to that ACIMS G4 working group?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Have a link to that ACIMS G4 working group?

It's here.  https://army.ca/forums/threads/29061/post-1541087.html#msg1541087

 

[Georgian Bay]

So, now that we can get boots that work what are you looking at?
I tried on a pair of Lowas, they won't work. For some reason they don't make 'tactical' boots in wide.  Looking at Merrell Moabs (if they are tall enough) or 5.11 taclite/halcyons.

Any others out there to consider?

 

[MilEME09]

So, now that we can get boots that work what are you looking at?
I tried on a pair of Lowas, they won't work. For some reason they don't make 'tactical' boots in wide.  Looking at Merrell Moabs (if they are tall enough) or 5.11 taclite/halcyons.

Any others out there to consider?

Rocky makes their boots in wide and extra wide, I find them very comfortable just remember to order half a size larger if you do a lot of rucking/walking in them so you have room if your feet swell.

 

[danteh]

With these new regs being activated on the 15th does that mean I can wear my SWATs on my SQ on the 20th without getting in trouble?

 

[PuckChaser]

With these new regs being activated on the 15th does that mean I can wear my SWATs on my SQ on the 20th without getting in trouble?

That's up to your course staff, no one here can answer that.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Aaaaaaaand an order just came down not to go out and buy any boots after the magical 15 August date until the CAF approves a list of what's allowed.

I'm sure that won't take long  8)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I thought 'what was allowed' was described in the CANFORGEN.  This a case of units, etc *giving direction* IAW that para 8 thing in Chap 1 of the dress regs instead of the CANFORGEN left and right of arcs? 

 

[Remius]

We currently have a wait out thing going on as well.  Our unit still needs to hash out a process. 

 

[kratz]

Units making up their own policy, contrary to the CANFORGEN. Jarnhamar's unit is skipping phase I and II with this order.

D. THE MANAGEMENT OF CBT BOOTS WILL EVENTUALLY TRANSITION TO AN ON-LINE MODEL, SIMILAR TO THE ONE CURRENTLY IN PLACE FOR DEU ITEMS. THIS TRANSITION WILL BE EXECUTED OVER SEVERAL YEARS, AND WILL OCCUR IN 3 PHASES:

(1). PHASE 1. ENTITLED CAF MEMBERS WILL BE ABLE TO PURCHASE CBT BOOTS OF THEIR CHOICE BASED ON SIMPLE SELECTION CRITERIA AND LOCAL CHAIN OF COMMAND GUIDANCE, AND BE REIMBURSED FOR THIS EXPENSE UP TO A PRE-DETERMINED MAXIMUM DOLLAR VALUE. THIS IS AN INTERIM POLICY THAT WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT UNTIL A PRE-QUALIFIED COMBAT BOOT PRODUCT
LIST CAN BE MADE AVAILABLE.

 

[kratz]

We currently have a wait out thing going on as well.  Our unit still needs to hash out a process.

There's nothing to hash out. Units were notified 3 weeks ago.
90% of the process is contained within the CANFORGEN itself.

1.  PROCESS FOR PHASE 1

A. PRIOR TO PURCHASING CBT BOOTS, INDIVIDUALS MUST ESTABLISH A LEGITIMATE NEED FOR A NEW PAIR OF BOOTS AND THIS NECESSITY MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE INDIVIDUALS CHAIN OF COMMAND. REFS C AND E PROVIDE ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES FOR THIS DETERMINATION. INDIVIDUALS ARE RESPONSIBLE TO PURCHASE A CBT BOOT THAT MEETS THE ABOVE SELECTION
CRITERIA. NON-COMPLIANT BOOTS WILL NOT BE REIMBURSED.

B. ADVANCES FOR CBT BOOT CLAIMS WILL NOT BE ENTERTAINED EXCEPT UNDER EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS AS DEEMED APPROPRIATE BY THE MEMBERS UNIT.

C. INDIVIDUALS MUST SUBMIT THEIR ORIGINAL PROOF OF PURCHASE AND UNIT AUTHORIZATION TO THEIR UNIT ORDERLY ROOM IOT INITIATE THE REIMBURSEMENT PROCESS. THIS WILL BE DONE VIA CF 52, GENERAL ALLOWANCE CLAIM. CERTIFIED COPIES OF CLAIMS MUST BE KEPT ON MEMBERS PERS FILE. RECEIPTS AND SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION MUST BE DATED WITHIN THE SAME FY AS THE CLAIM BEING SUBMITTED.

 

[dimsum]

Units making up their own policy, contrary to the CANFORGEN. Jarnhamar's unit is skipping phase I and II with this order.

Maybe they thought "local chain of command guidance" was to "wait out".  ???