CO of Hal relieved

[Halifax Tar]

If people don't care to know then they won't know. It takes 30 seconds in the chow line to ask an Ops type where we are and where we are going. Lots of folks just don't listen to that info even when you do pass it on. It has literally nothing to do with their job. So they don't care.

Ok.

 

[Underway]

Ok.

I'm not saying to stop doing it. People should know. And I think you should keep trying to inform them. It's good leadership. I was just giving you an out if they don't pay attention! Lol

 

[stoker dave]

During the last week of our deployment to Libya, on the transit home - I saw the CO walking on 3 deck. I asked him if he was lost - it was the first time I'd seen him down that far inside the ship.

So back in my day, junior MARS / NWO were encouraged to be visible everywhere. But the CO and XO (and any visiting admirals) were rarely if ever seen beyond their cabin, bridge and ops room. The the MARS / NWO were (following the example set) reluctant go go below the weather deck. (And I clearly remember, during one battle exercise with everyone in full NBC gear, an admiral walking around in shorts and civilian deck shoes..... how to NOT set an example but that is for another day.)

My memory of seeing a Commander in the MCR is that he looked scared. Senior officers hated being somewhere where they knew less than the 18 year old junior stoker and knew they might be asked some pointed questions. And certainly many of the senior stokers had no reason to hold back when given the chance. I can hear them now in a conversation like this: senior stoker to XO: "When the f*ity f* are we going to get some f*ing decent f**ing (beer / food / spare parts) on this f***ing boat or are we just f***ing going to keep f***ing along doing f all?"

I would like to think things have improved. Can someone confirm OOW is expected to visit the MCR prior to being on watch? If so, that is a great policy that should be encouraged.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So back in my day, junior MARS / NWO were encouraged to be visible everywhere. But the CO and XO (and any visiting admirals) were rarely if ever seen beyond their cabin, bridge and ops room. The the MARS / NWO were (following the example set) reluctant go go below the weather deck. (And I clearly remember, during one battle exercise with everyone in full NBC gear, an admiral walking around in shorts and civilian deck shoes..... how to NOT set an example but that is for another day.)

You could argue that the Army is much the same.

Except that all Army Officers start off on their basic courses doing what their soldiers are required to do, and commanding troops at a very low level. Inevitably, they progress away from the more detailed knowledge conveyed by regular front line leadership roles.

This is not perfect, of course, but at least I'm pretty confident that a guy like Wayne Eyre could speak with some confidence about what the average soldier does on a daily basis, and might even give a few of them a run for their money if required to dig a trench, punch holes in a target, or hump a ruck.

This does alot for a leader's credibility, and effectiveness, of course.

Paradoxically, not that I know much about it but, I think the Navy used to set the standard in this regard with the role of the Midshipman. Learning the job 'from the bilge up' is a great way to grow good leaders, IMHO.

 

[Good2Golf]

A ships company also notices quickly when a CO doesn't visit 3 Deck often. It's an easy way to gain familiarity with a crew and help foster positive morale, I'm not sure why many don't do it more.

For reference, how far down is 3 deck. Main machinery? DGs, GTs, etc.?

 

[Halifax Tar]

For reference, how far down is 3 deck. Main machinery? DGs, GTs, etc.?

Its the second deck beneath the upper decks. Its generally where a lot of the NCMs work and live. Its also where the MCR is, Stores Office, Canteen, Ships Office; and the mess decks and messes.

 

[Good2Golf]

Its the second deck beneath the upper decks. Its generally where a lot of the NCMs work and live. Its also where the MCR is, Stores Office, Canteen, Ships Office; and the mess decks and messes.

Ack. Tx!

So a skipper or XO would rarely be seen on 3 Deck? (Less the MCR). Wow!

 

[Navy_Pete]

Paradoxically, not that I know much about it but, I think the Navy used to set the standard in this regard with the role of the Midshipman. Leaning the job 'from the bilge up' is a great way to grow good leaders, IMHO.

That's how the engineering officer training works; has scaled back with the lack of sea time for a lot of people but you basically start out shadowing the most junior watchkeepers and work up from there. Less common now, but use to be a number of EOs with the basic watchkeeping certificate on whatever class of ship they did their Ph 6 on and would occasionally even officially be on the watch rotation.

Pretty proud moment when the sailors trust you enough not to hurt yourself with tools and include you as part of the watch, and show you how to do basic things in the shop. Basically just OS type activities, but that kind of stuff earns a lot of credibility.

Hard to forget how a system works when you've crawled through the bilge to get to a certain valve, spent days doing routine things like cleaning a fuel purifier or book cell etc. Also makes it really easy to call BS when you've actually done a job when someone tries to lob a ludicrous repair time your way.

The RAN and maybe the RN still actually require the EOs to get officially qualified, although we phased that out a while ago. Takes a while to work through so between the lack of sailing time and number of secondaries it's probably pretty unheard of now to actually get qualified, but the SLts still get into the mix of things to help out as part of 'professional development'. Even if they aren't actively getting qualified, they'll be carrying tools, shadowing people, and generally doing things that don't require the trades training where they can learn without actually getting in the way.

The NWOs sort of do some of this stuff with the deckwork, and do get a lot of exposure to different things, but it's at the 10k foot level so it's enough to kind of know what other departments do but that's about it. THey get flogged like rental cars though with a lot of pressure to get their quals done, so they simply don't have time to really get into the weeds. Once they get their BWK certificate and can act as Officer of the Watch (OOW) the good ones will start to learn more about other departments, but usually that's when they start figuring out what they want to do next, so will be more focused on a specific ops section.

With the LogOs they show up as Lt(N)s with their trade training happening in Borden (?) so they just get it via firehouse as part of officer of the day training, but the good ones will get into some of the weeds with things that happen in their departments.

 

[FSTO]

With the LogOs they show up as Lt(N)s with their trade training happening in Borden (?) so they just get it via firehouse as part of officer of the day training, but the good ones will get into some of the weeds with things that happen in their departments.

Huh? They don’t come to the ship as a subbie? WTF?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Ack. Tx!

So a skipper or XO would rarely be seen on 3 Deck? (Less the MCR). Wow!

Depends on the class of ship; the Cox'ns office on a CPF is right near the MCR, so the XO was there all the time to at least say hi. Similarly the laundry and some other spaces are down on 4 deck, so sometimes they'd pop in to get a feel for how things were going.

A lot of CO's do 'management by wandering' but try and limit it a bit to also stay out of folks way to a certain extent, but when there were lulls 2000ish seemed to be a popular time for checking in with different departments. Was never surprised to see the XO/CO talking to the EOOW when I went into the MCR to sign the night order book, and figured out pretty quickly that sometimes it makes sense to pass on minor items that you have under control so they don't hear about it for the first time from the on watch folks.

Some like to get into the various departmental spaces, but that would be more of an informal guided tour with the HOD/CHOD that was pre-arranged, and was to look for some bugbears that we weren't having joy figuring out. Similarly when there is a big repair on usually the COs will stick their head in for morale support and tell the team they are doing a good job. For especially difficult jobs or risky ones in hard to access spots was also useful to show the CO's the location so they would understand why you were recommending to not do it at sea (or at least wait til things calm down)

Big fan myself, but bit of a balance between wandering productively and getting in people's way, plus getting all your own work done.

 

[Halifax Tar]

With the LogOs they show up as Lt(N)s with their trade training happening in Borden (?) so they just get it via firehouse as part of officer of the day training, but the good ones will get into some of the weeds with things that happen in their departments.

In RCN 1.0 Log Os had to earn a BWK and stand watches on the bridge.

Huh? They don’t come to the ship as a subbie? WTF?

It depends on a lot of factors but our baby Log Os generally show up as a subbie or a very Jr LT. But the HOD is always an LT and should be on their second ship, and last ship, and OOD, as well as HOD qualified.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ack. Tx!

So a skipper or XO would rarely be seen on 3 Deck? (Less the MCR). Wow!

XOs are a different beast with a metric butt load of administrative paper work to accomplish and are often seen at the SHO and Cox'ns office.

It really depends on the CO. But the ones who rarely venture to the nether regions of the peasants to say hi and mingle have their absence often noticed quickly. Many JRs and C&POs take that as a sign.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Log Os make the best foreign port duty OODs.

That is not a slag. They are not ruffled when truck loads of stuff shows up on the jetty with no warning; they know what to do when S1 Snuffy has a death in the family and needs to fly home and they don’t get bullshitted by the Chandler.

Log O’s are awesome.

 

[Good2Golf]

HT, NP, thanks for the insight!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

XOs are a different beast with a metric butt load of administrative paper work to accomplish and are often seen at the SHO and Cox'ns office.

It really depends on the CO. But the ones who rarely venture to the nether regions of the peasants to say hi and mingle have their absence often noticed quickly. Many JRs and C&POs take that as a sign.

I have sailed with some great COs and some not great ones.

It gets noted pretty quickly by the Air Dept, too, which COs (or really, any NWO) is too afraid/busy to step into the hangar and visit during aircraft maintenance. The techs are all too happy to answer questions and give impromptu tours. The great COs were not afraid to wander into the hangar during an engine change (or something equally hard) and chat or just watch.

Actually, I noticed that about all Departments. I am sure that it helps that I wore a flight suit (so was perceived as “non-threatening”) but I used to wander the ship (because I love ships and technology and want to know how things work) and ask people what they were doing and why, or ask to be explained how a certain system works. People are really proud of their trades and are usually only too happy to see you are interested in what they do. They would take you on a tour or even hand you tools and talk you through a repair. It can be a lot of fun!

 

[Good2Golf]

People are really proud of their trades and are usually only too happy to see you are interested in what they do.

Leaders who fail to provide the opportunity for members to do so, are both personally and institutionally depriving the force of worthy insight and appreciation/motivation.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Log Os make the best foreign port duty OODs.

That is not a slag. They are not ruffled when truck loads of stuff shows up on the jetty with no warning; they know what to do when S1 Snuffy has a death in the family and needs to fly home and they don’t get bullshitted by the Chandler.

Log O’s are awesome.

Do I have a motion on the floor to make all foreign port OODs fall to to Log Os ?

 

[Edward Campbell]

On my last deployment we had a large map put up on the wall next to the galley, so the crew would walk by it at least thrice a day, and it showed where the ship was, where it was going next, along with blurbs and pictures describing our current operations.

HUMINT suggests it was greatly appreciated.

Many decades ago I was the most junior staff officer (called the Staff Learner - which, very accurate described my role) in a brigade HQ. One of my duties, every evening, was to go to the cook truck with large map board and pointer and brief the Signals and support people on the state of the "battle." It was a) a "duty of the staff" laid out, in black and white, in Staff Duties in the Field, and b) generally much appreciated by the soldiers most of whom had absolutely vital jobs but never saw the "big picture" unless someone like me was sent out to show into them.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Depends on the class of ship; the Cox'ns office on a CPF is right near the MCR, so the XO was there all the time to at least say hi. Similarly the laundry and some other spaces are down on 4 deck, so sometimes they'd pop in to get a feel for how things were going.

A lot of CO's do 'management by wandering' but try and limit it a bit to also stay out of folks way to a certain extent, but when there were lulls 2000ish seemed to be a popular time for checking in with different departments. Was never surprised to see the XO/CO talking to the EOOW when I went into the MCR to sign the night order book, and figured out pretty quickly that sometimes it makes sense to pass on minor items that you have under control so they don't hear about it for the first time from the on watch folks.

Some like to get into the various departmental spaces, but that would be more of an informal guided tour with the HOD/CHOD that was pre-arranged, and was to look for some bugbears that we weren't having joy figuring out. Similarly when there is a big repair on usually the COs will stick their head in for morale support and tell the team they are doing a good job. For especially difficult jobs or risky ones in hard to access spots was also useful to show the CO's the location so they would understand why you were recommending to not do it at sea (or at least wait til things calm down)

Big fan myself, but bit of a balance between wandering productively and getting in people's way, plus getting all your own work done.

This is a vital aspect of MWBA in the military. I did it (wandered about) a lot, almost daily, in garrison but I was much more careful in the field to not disturb the working elements - I visited a location when I needed to see something for myself, not just to "look and see" or, worse, in my opinion, just to de seen.

 

[Underway]

I would like to think things have improved. Can someone confirm OOW is expected to visit the MCR prior to being on watch? If so, that is a great policy that should be encouraged.

As an OOW you were expected to visit the MCR and OPS to get their input as to what was going on before you get to the bridge to do a turnover.

That way when you got your turnover on the bridge it wasn't new info that you were down a DA or you had to find some time in the watch to de-coke the generator, and you can catch things in your turnover that are incorrect.

If you were running late you could cheat and skip one, but you were not supposed to be running late.

So a skipper or XO would rarely be seen on 3 Deck? (Less the MCR). Wow!

XO is there all the time. Ships Office and Coxn's office and stores office is down there so they make stops all the time. Some CO's wander, others don't. Really depends on the situation.

Part of the problem is that the CO needs to be able to quickly be contacted by the OOW for contact reports and by OPS for similar. So some won't travel far from their cabin, OPS or CCR.