CO-ED Accommodation

[Kilted]

If you want to know the reaction reaction, ask your wife.

"While on deployment for 6 months, I'll be sharing an apartment with a female Cpl. Just the two of us, but separate bedrooms, so it's cool. Right? Are you having a stroke dear? I've never seen that face before"

Didn't the same thing happen when they started to let women on ships?

 

[quadrapiper]

And they're Scandinavian. Again, despite all outward appearances, a very different culture from ours in many ways. So I'd use caution when trying to compare our 'co-ed living needs' with theirs.

Absolutely. Bet we'd be closer in a lot of ways if our southern neighbours were the Netherlands and Germany, rather than what we've got*. Would be interesting to see if there's ways, in the initial few years of training, to artificially achieve some of the same results, re: "de-gendering" fellow service members.

Have there been enough female crew aboard the subs to be useful for discussion?

*As an ahistorical, I've always wondered how different the world would be if the fops, excess sons, bastards, and other Cavalier types had come to dominate in the States' formative years, versus the other lot.

 

[TCM621]

Didn't the same thing happen when they started to let women on ships?

It will always be an issue where men and women work together away from home. It is a relationship issue not a CAF issue, although if Generals would stop shtupping their staff and having it go public life would be easier for the rest of us.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It will always be an issue where men and women work together away from home. It is a relationship issue not a CAF issue, although if Generals would stop shtupping their staff and having it go public life would be easier for the rest of us.

There's a word I haven't heard in awhile

 

[SupersonicMax]

It will always be an issue where men and women work together away from home. It is a relationship issue not a CAF issue, although if Generals would stop shtupping their staff and having it go public life would be easier for the rest of us.

Many of the allegations took place well before they became GOs. The problem runs much deeper than GOs.

 

[Good2Golf]

Many of the allegations took place well before they became GOs. The problem runs much deeper than GOs.

No doubt. With recent DEUs reports of issues with one FO back when he was a LCdr, I suspect you are quite right, SupersonicMax.

G2G

 

[dapaterson]

Many of the allegations took place well before they became GOs. The problem runs much deeper than GOs.

I think Rory Fowler (LCol, ret'd, PPCLI then legal) provides excellent food for thought on his blog at (It’s) the Impunity, Stupid where he opines

The Oxford English Dictionary defines impunity as “exemption from punishment or freedom from the injurious consequences of an action”. I suspect that someone offering a more colloquial definition would describe it as ‘getting away with bad conduct’.

As long as some individuals for whatever reason at whatever rank are not subject to the same repercussions of their actions, this will continue.

 

[OldSolduer]

I was gauging the response to the idea that men and women can share an apartment while deployed.

That is a very good question. Can they? I suppose the right people can.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think Rory Fowler (LCol, ret'd, PPCLI then legal) provides excellent food for thought on his blog at (It’s) the Impunity, Stupid where he opines



As long as some individuals for whatever reason at whatever rank are not subject to the same repercussions of their actions, this will continue.

Wow. Great blog post by Rory.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

RCR Battle School Petawawa , Matawawa Plains. SC-52
I was on course and the bunk across from my bunk had a female in it, think there 5 females on the course. We slept in the same room at night and in the same trenches during the field parts of the course. Was never an issue I was aware of. Too busy trying to pass the course.

 

[Brad Sallows]

So there's evidence it doesn't have to be a problem. But it could be. Separation is a sensible precaution for the same reason lockers in barracks are locked: sometimes honest people need help to stay honest. Ounce of prevention, etc.

And as mentioned, the people sharing spaces aren't the only ones with a stake. There's no value creating tensions back home; simply wishing away the worries of insecure spouses isn't much of an effort. If you're a leader and you knew something could be a problem, what did you do to mitigate the risk?

 

[AKa]

So there's evidence it doesn't have to be a problem. But it could be. Separation is a sensible precaution for the same reason lockers in barracks are locked: sometimes honest people need help to stay honest. Ounce of prevention, etc.

And as mentioned, the people sharing spaces aren't the only ones with a stake. There's no value creating tensions back home; simply wishing away the worries of insecure spouses isn't much of an effort. If you're a leader and you knew something could be a problem, what did you do to mitigate the risk?

I'm sorry, but I believe that the service member is responsible for managing the insecurities of their spouses. During my career, I hugely resented those times where my coworkers' neurotic spouses affected how they were "allowed" to interact with me. It was insulting to both me and the spouse. In my opinion, it takes more than just opportunity to pursuade a loving, faithful person to change tracks.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Nevertheless, when lives or even just an acceptable outcome depend on someone distracted by his unraveling marriage, it becomes everyone's problem regardless what they believe.

 

[mariomike]

I'm sorry, but I believe that the service member is responsible for managing the insecurities of their spouses.

Nothing new about "the insecurities of their spouses".

Wives of Police Protest Women in Patrol Cars (Published 1974)

NYC Policemen's Wives Assn and Citizens Orgn for Police Support in Staten Island march from Police Hq to City Hall on June 20 to protest assigning of policewomen to patrol cars with male officers; Deputy Inspector Gertrude Schimmel maintains female officers handle violent situations well; illus (M)

www.nytimes.com

Fire departments went through similar protests about women in the stations.

Firemen's Wives Fight For Chauvinism on Job (Published 1974)

article on opposition of firefighters' wives to San Diego, Calif, Fire Dept's decision to enlist 35 women who would share formerly all‐male sleeping qrs in fire stations; says nearly 300 wives have banded together as Concerned Wives of Firemen and threaten to go to ct in effort to block...

www.nytimes.com

SAN DIEGO, July 27—The San Diego Civil Service Commission and the Fire Department have been kept busy this month trying to douse the anger of nearly 300 firemens’ wives who are determined to preserve the fire station as one of the last citadels of male chauvinism.
Banded together as Concerned Wives of Firemen, the irate women threaten to go to court in an effort to block a decision to enlist 35 female >firefighters who would share the heretofore all‐male sleeping quarters in San Diego's fire stations.
While volunteer fire departments and some smalltown departments have hired women firefighters, the International Association of Fire Chiefs >said it believed the action here would make San Diego the nation's first major city to hire women on a wide scale as paid firefighters.

At one stormy meeting with city officials, Marguerite B. Beaton, wife of. a 15‐year veteran of the department, demanded: “How am I going to >explain to my six children why their daddy goes to work and sleeps next to another woman? I'm the only woman who has a right to shower with my husband.”

Unlike a firehouse with a lot of guys and captains to chaperone, you can probably imagine what it was like within the cozy confines of an ambulance station built for just two people. Not all the wives were on-board with that.

 

[lenaitch]

I know for a fact that I was assigned as coach officer to the first female member posted to the small detachment in 1980 primarily because of the spouses of the qualified married members.

 

[mariomike]

I know for a fact that I was assigned as coach officer to the first female member posted to the small detachment in 1980 primarily because of the spouses of the qualified married members.

One of my favorite shows is "Decoy".

"We pose as hostess's, society girls, models. There are 249 of us in the department. We're New York's finest. We're policewomen."

The Technical Advisor was Margaret Leonard. Detective 1st Grade NYPD Bureau of Police Women.

Times have changed.

In Toronto, June 1974,

Police women are first placed on regular patrol duties with men and are expected to do the same work. Thirteen policewomen are transferred from the Youth Bureau to Division 52 and 55 in the downtown core to decide whether or not women can perform the same duties as the men. The decision is also made to arm these thirteen women with .38 calibre revolvers.

https://www.torontopolice.on.ca/museum/herstory-milestones_in_the_history_of_tps_women.pdf

I'm no psychologist, but I found partnering with a woman had a soothing and calming effect on me.

Just say, "Yes dear."

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

I do not know about other barracks because I only lived in one at Base Toronto ( Yes there was a base there a long time ago) . In the JR ranks barrack Building 132 there were 3 floors. 1st and 2nd floor were men only and the third floor for women only. Yes there was some gender mixing at night, but we were all adults. I do not recall any problems with the fact men and women were under the same roof.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I do not know about other barracks because I only lived in one at Base Toronto ( Yes there was a base there a long time ago) . In the JR ranks barrack Building 132 there were 3 floors. 1st and 2nd floor were men only and the third floor for women only. Yes there was some gender mixing at night, but we were all adults. I do not recall any problems with the fact men and women were under the same roof.

Because 'Single men in barracks don’t grow into Plaster Saints', back in the day, there was a Barrack Warden who would keep an eye on things in the quarters. Usually this was a Duty Corporal, or someone similar from the Quiet Hours Guard shift, who was located in an office in the barracks. They were usually kept busy doing menial administrative tasks for the RSM when not inspecting the lines or dealing with one kind of crisis or another.

No idea if we have anything similar in operation these days but, if not, it might be a good idea.

 

[QV]

I do not know about other barracks because I only lived in one at Base Toronto ( Yes there was a base there a long time ago) . In the JR ranks barrack Building 132 there were 3 floors. 1st and 2nd floor were men only and the third floor for women only. Yes there was some gender mixing at night, but we were all adults. I do not recall any problems with the fact men and women were under the same roof.

So its ok then, the gender mixing at night... For the record I agree, consenting adults are just adulting.

 

[TCM621]

Because 'Single men in barracks don’t grow into Plaster Saints', back in the day, there was a Barrack Warden who would keep an eye on things in the quarters. Usually this was a Duty Corporal, or someone similar from the Quiet Hours Guard shift, who was located in an office in the barracks. They were usually kept busy doing menial administrative tasks for the RSM when not inspecting the lines or dealing with one kind of crisis or another.

No idea if we have anything similar in operation these days but, if not, it might be a good idea.

I remember doing rounds of the barracks and one of the things we had to do was patrol the female wing. Men were allowed on that side until 10 then they were kicked out. On the weekends we did the rounds a little more frequently and it kept people honest. I'm sure there were people quietly having sex who never alerted the duty watch but no one was getting raped or harassed without someone knowing. That probably prevented some situations just by being there and I'm sure more were stopped before they escalated too badly.

I don't know what it is like everywhere these days but the last time I stayed in barracks you might have seen the duty NCO once if at all.