CH47 Chinook

[Strike]

I spent 25 years flying and 5 as a tech and have lots of Arctic experience. CH-113As and Chinooks virtually always got sick in cold places.
I flew on Buffaloes for a couple of years and C-130s for 15 and only had 1 C-130 that got sick in the cold. That was after an overnight stay in Alert. 8 Hours in a warm hangar in Thule and she was right back to normal.

The ones that performed well were fixed wing.

Griffs head up north regularly so it's not like there is any lack of experience wrt helo ops up north that we have to worry about.  Given the extended range available that means less need to use fuel caches (and crappy gas).

As for the how the hooks will perform up north, I'm going to wait for Duey to chime in, since he's probably done the exact thing that we're debating about.

 

[danchapps]

Strike, here's a quick question for you. With regards to the Hook's only being in Pet now, how will that affect training here? Will there be cross country trips when the Patricia's need some helo's for play in WX? Would it not have made sense to have a couple based here in Edmonton? I'm just curious is all.

 

[Loachman]

It took us several weeks to fly a Griffon from Borden to Alert for Op Hurricane a couple of summers ago. Cracked windscreen, tail rotor problem discovered almost as soon as that was fixed, endless wait for parts, wait to get a right-hand windscreen when a left-hand one labelled right-hand came in (finally), other wrong parts, weather, trying to find a hangar where the windscreen could be replaced (the sealant needs twenty-four hours to cure and sufficient warmth to do so, and probably a few other things.

I doubt that the new Chinooks will be any worse, and hopefully newer technology will have improved things.

 

[Loachman]

It's probably cheaper to build infrastructure in just one place.

Maintenance is simplified, and deployment to Wainwright should not be a significant issue.

Training areas (Tac Low Fly Areas) off base are probably better in Pet. Moose do not phone in complaints.

 

[danchapps]

Thanks for the quick reply Loachman. I guess I'll have to hope for a posting to Pet so I can see them somewhat frequently.

 

[beenthere]

On 450 Sqn. we did a couple of Arctic exercises. Frobisher Bay in 1972: We could keep 2 of 3 CH-113As in a heated hangar. One day the wind came up real quick and the rotor brake on the chopper that was outside(311) let go because the hyd. system leaked from the cold. The rotors started turning and eventually picked up some speed. The blades started to go up and down as they were turning. One blade drooped and hit the top,damaged the sync shaft and ripped the sync shaft bearing mounts out of the airframe. The blade broke in half. Most if not all of the rotor blades were write offs from contacting the fuselage and from flexing upward. Both rotor heads damaged. I witnessed the whole event. They had to break the fuselage down into 3 pieces and fly everything back south in a Hercules. Repair time was many months. All because of one small hydraulic leak caused by the cold.

Churchill in the 70's. Winter exercise. 3 or 4 CH-113As. Kept them in heated hangar with no major problems. At least what we called major--no aircraft damaged. Lots of problems with leaks in Churchill and a few on the transit from Ottawa and back. In Winnipeg just after startup a hyd line in the control closet broke and I got soaked. Snowbank by the aircraft turned pink.

Petawawa or Wainwright  in winter is pretty much like the Arctic.

We regularly sent choppers to Alert and back in the summer. No problems. The Arctic in summer is like anywhere in Canada.

450 Was the SAR helicopter element for Trenton for several years and we regularly sent single choppers with only the FE for maintenance to all parts of the Trenton SAR area. Used to carry a Herman Nelson heater in the winter with good results most times.

In comparison the Chinook was a pig. All kinds of problems. Transmissions leaked, hydraulic systems leaked, engines had hot starts (requiring engine change), the cabin windows blew out in flight, structural parts failed, rotor heads leaked, and chip lights came on regularly.They got sick when they were left out in the cold. All kinds of flight control problems. Oleos went flat.
You name it and it happened.

 

[beenthere]

It's probably cheaper to build infrastructure in just one place.

Maintenance is simplified, and deployment to Wainwright should not be a significant issue.

Training areas (Tac Low Fly Areas) off base are probably better in Pet. Moose do not phone in complaints.

The old Chinooks could fly from Edmonton to Ottawa with one fuel stop at Winnipeg using the long range fuel system. The system was designed and built by 450 Sqn before NDHQ even knew about it. That's another story.

 

[observor 69]

FYI: Boeing CHINOOK CH-147

Boeing CHINOOK CH-147
The Boeing Vertol CH-47C Chinook was a special uprated variant of the heavy-lift tandem-rotor helicopter acquired by the CF in 1974 and used primarily for Mobile Command operations.

The first aircraft unfortunately crashed on its initial delivery flight. The remaining seven survivors used extensively by the CF in transport duties associated with 10 Tactical Air Group (10 TAG).

These included medium airlift requirements including the transport of troops, rations, military supplies, transport and weapons for mobility operations. Arctic re-supply and special heavy-lift operations were also routinely undertaken. The Chinooks were based primarily with 447 and 450 Transport Helicopter Squadrons while employed by the CF.

Although highly versatile, the CH-147 Chinooks eventually proved to be maintenance intensive and consequently expensive to operate so the CF retired the fleet as an economy measure in 1991. The ex-Canadian aircraft were eventually refurbished by Boeing Vertol and sold to the Dutch Armed Forces.

Canada has re-aquired 6 used CH-47D Chinooks from the US Forces for use in Afghanistan and has placed an order with Boeing for 15 CH-47F Chinook helicoptes, although this order has not been finialized yet.  It is not presently known if these aircraft will also be known as the CH-147


SPECIFICATIONS
CDN Reg: CH-147
US/NATO Reg.: CH-47
Manufacturer:  Boeing Vertol
Crew / Passengers: four: two pilots & flight engineer & loadmaster plus up to 44 passengers, 33 troops or up 28,000 lb (12,700 kg) external loads.
Power Plant(s): two AVCO Lycoming 3,300 shp T55-L-11C turboshaft engines
Performance: Max Speed: 180 mph (290 km/h) Cruising Speed: 160 mph (257 km/h) Hover Ceiling: 9,200 ft (2,804 m) Range: 115 mi (185 km)
Weights:  Empty: 20,616 lb (9,351 kg) Takeoff: 39,000 lbs (17,781 kg)
Dimensions: Rotor Dia: 60 ft 0 in ( 18.29 m) Length: 99 ft 0 in ( 30.18 m) Height: 22 ft i6 n ( 6.86 m) 
Armament: None


http://rcaf.com/Aircraft/aircraftDetail.php?CHINOOK-171

 

[karl28]

      I am just glad that the CF will finally get these choppers that they badly need . Even if the new ones aren't used in Afghanistan they can still be used for lots of other operations or Future mission where ever they take the CF

 

[Jammer]

The Uk MoD just made a panic order of 22 Chinooks for the RAF. In return, the RAF will close it's Cottismore base (Tornado), in order to fund this.
They are expecting them in 2013. it sounds to me like an off the shelf purchase with none of their own modifications.

 

[Strike]

Frobisher Bay in 1972...

Dude, you're old!  ;D

Anyway, I see what you're saying about maintenance issues, but you can't compare the F model to the Cs that we were using.

That's like saying all Honda CR-Vs are crap because the 2002 model had a bunch of recalls.  (I only use this as an example because I have a 2002 CR-V and it had a bunch of recalls!)  Between then and now there have been loads of improvements to fix the problems from the past.  It can be expected that the same has been done with the F models.  Remember, several iterations have come and gone since we got rid of our hooks.

Of course, cold weather will be a factor.  It is in each and every aircraft, no matter the type or age.  Aircraft are usually designed based on where they will be used the most, not for the complete extremes.  As an example, how many helicopters are out there that have de-icing capabilities?  Not that many.

 

[Loachman]

we got rid of our hooks.

Extremely poor terminology.

We did not "get rid of" them.

"Gave up", yes. "Lost", yes.

One "gets rid of" garbage.

One does not "get rid of" valuable things.

 

[beenthere]

Yes Strike I,m an old dude but I have a good memory. I can't remember where I left my car keys an hour ago but I can remember working on a CH-113A tail # 418 in Rivers Manitoba in 1965 when it had less than 200 flying hours on it.

I stayed with the CH-113As until they were replaced by the CH-147s and did the acceptance check and delivery flight of Chinook 147005 from Harrisburg Pa. to Ottawa in April/May 1975.
I flew on Chinooks long  enough to discover that they weren't all that great and helped to design and implement several things that should have been incorporated into the aircraft before we ever bought them.

I remember when I migrated to C-130's and discovered that some very smart design engineers had made use of the bleed air ducting that goes to/from the engines to provide a system to preheat the engines using the same air source--the GTC/APU  that is used to start the engines. It's called nacelle preheat.

If I was going to buy a helicopter like the Chinook that was going to be used in Canada and left out overnight in extreme conditions that same  kind of preheat system--also routed to the transmissions and some other important areas would have priority over some of the other bells and whistles that are on the new Chinooks. If you can't fly the helicopter because one oil or hydraulic seal is leaking all of the other high tech crap in the world isn't worth a thing.

 

[beenthere]

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/service_news_magazines/V17N4.pdf

 

[Good2Golf]

The CF's F(variant) will be a nice machine.  Much will be improved over the old C's...which Canada was still operating after most others had upgraded to D's.  I understand that there will be a lot of system modularity that takes into account much of the experience the Boeing and Chinook operators world-wide have had in the last 20 years (D's, E's, F's and G's).  Beenthere, you're right that there are some things that you can't change much, hydraulics don't like the cold very much, but if you get them going gently, they'll go and go and go.  Even the D's in AFG have nice FADEC engines that make fuel management issues a thing of the past.  The folks that get to fly and maintain these machines will really like them, I'm sure.

Cheers
G2G

 

[The Bread Guy]

This, from MERX:

    …. Defence Construction Canada – Request for Qualifications, Design and Construction of Support Facilities, Medium To Heavy Lift Helicopters (MHLH), Petawawa, ON.

In accordance with the rules, regulations, statutes and guidelines, and the professional associations of the Province of Ontario, Defence Construction Canada (DCC) is calling for submissions from Contractor Teams to provide the following services for the design and construction of the new facilities:

    • complete the design and prepare the construction documentation based on the Performance Specifications
    • design, register and obtain LEED® certification at the level of Silver
    • supply all labour, materials and equipment to construct the facilities
    • establish and maintain QA/QC processes throughout the implementation phase of the project
    • undertake complete commissioning and testing exercise to ensure compliance with the performance objectives.
    • supply as-built and operation and maintenance data ….

    The estimated design and construction cost is in the order of $124,000,000 ….

What do you get for $124M?  From the bid documents:

    The Heavy Maintenance Squadron Facility  will provide 2nd and 3rd line maintenance support for all Chinook operations in an approximately 13,000 sq.m. gross area. It will incorporate four (4) helicopter maintenance bays, one (1) explosion proof repair bay, as well as an interior wash bay with an underground water reservoir. Aircraft support shops and offices will also be located throughout the facility.

    The 1st Line Maintenance and Operation Facility will house the squadron operational helicopters, operators and support in a gross area of approximately 16,000 sq.m. The hangar floor will accommodate a minimum of ten (10) helicopters. The large, open, ready-use material shops will require basic systems with electrical and/or air compressor connectors to accommodate work benches, metal fabrication equipment and fume hoods. Squadron offices will also be housed in this facility.

    The Pilot and Maintainer Training Facility will be approximately 6,000 sq.m. gross area. A large portion will be high bays for simulators. Other areas will be used as computer rooms, classrooms, briefing rooms and instructor offices.

    The Common Support Facility will be approximately 5,000 sq.m. gross area. A large portion will comprise a high warehouse. Other portions will include office areas, repair shops for small equipment, and support vehicles.

Bid docs if you're interested available here.

 

[beenthere]

The complex looks cool. Just about what I would have come up with. 8)
Hopefully it will have a built in fire suppression/extinguishing system so that the whole fleet doesn't go up in one big fire.

Hopefully someone has included anti icing for the roof structure above the hangar doors so icicles don't drop off and skewer the aircraft as they are being moved in or out of the hangar.
.
Hopefully the large storage area is going to be used to store every spare part for the Chinook fleet so that there is no time wasted in shipping parts from supply depots located all over the country. If you want to be able to find something when you need it never let the supply system have it.

It would also be nice to have fuel hydrants located at parking spots but that part should wait until the unit has been operating for a couple of years in order to sort out the best parking arrangement.

I'm such a worrywart. :

 

[Strike]

Hopefully it will have a built in fire suppression/extinguishing system so that the whole fleet doesn't go up in one big fire.

That's pretty standard, which is also why there are several different bays, so all the aircraft aren't kept in the same hangar.

Hopefully the large storage area is going to be used to store every spare part for the Chinook fleet so that there is no time wasted in shipping parts from supply depots located all over the country. If you want to be able to find something when you need it never let the supply system have it.

Good luck with that one.  In an effort to lower our environmental footprint, the CF is sticking with "Just in Time" management of spare parts.  We may have alot of extra little pieces, but unlikely we'd have a couple of engines and a few full sets of blades just sitting around in case we need them.

It would also be nice to have fuel hydrants located at parking spots but that part should wait until the unit has been operating for a couple of years in order to sort out the best parking arrangement.

Not an environmentally sound option.  Plus, Pet already services 427 SOAS with refuelling via bowsers.  I suspect the only change would be that they will need to get an extra truck or two to manage the higher demand.

 

[beenthere]

Leave it up to some wizard to come up with something named "Just In Time" to be used by of all people-the military so as to give the appearance of being environmentally friendly.

I don't know where the supply depots are located these days but I would bet big bucks that really good management would would put the spare parts really close to the one place that uses them.
That would be Just In The Right Place and would involve the use of common sense. Common sense is common and that"s why it's used a lot---in some places.

I can recall when we thought of setting up a unit fundraiser by placing bets on where something like a hydraulic line would come from after we put it on an IOR. Every supply depot in the country had bits and pieces of Chinooks stashed away.

Really good management would also never allow things like spare engines to be anyplace except in the squadron's hangar. Engine changes are so routine on most aircraft that the engines are either installed on the aircraft, in the engine shop being worked on or sitting in the hangar ready to go for the next engine change.

Rotor blades are another good example although they probably have less troublesome blades than in the past. However it isn't unusual for someone to hover the aircraft close enough to some trees that the aft blades do a bit of wood chopping.
One time long ago I closed a hangar door and in doing so scrunched the end of a blade. It was about 8 pm and we were closing up for the night and were going to head over to the JRs for a cool one. We took the blade off and installed one from the rack on the hangar floor. We hit the JRs before 10 and of course I bought a couple of rounds. :nod: The aircraft was able to fly the next day rather than sit while a truck drove half way across Canada with a fresh blade from a supply depot.
We had a SAR commitment back then so looking back I would have felt really bad about putting a vital part of SAR out of use and possibly costing some unfortunates to suffer and die for lack of resources.

Now we have a system in place to be environmentally friendly and while doing so possibly cause a whole fleet of helicopters to be unavailable in the event of some tragedy. Just think of this scenario. At 0800 on a given day the squadron is advised that a special inspection has been  ordered on the whole fleet because some part had failed. The techs do the inspection and find that all of the aircraft are faulty. What is required is that one part is needed for each aircraft. The parts are located in whatever supply depot and can be delivered in a day or two. It takes 30 minutes to install. At 1000 some terrible event takes place in Ottawa and every available resource is needed immediately. Every resource in Pettewawa  is available with the exception of every Chinook helicopter that Canada has just spent a gazillion dollars for.
When the people from high up on the hill ask why they failed to respond when they were needed most the reply is that we like to give the impression that we're green friends of the earth.
What happens then?
I know that the two events coinciding are rather unlikely but as we all with the exception of the good managers of course, know that  things can go wrong and on some days everything goes wrong.

Fuel bowsers have clipped a few blades over the years as well. Things like after doing a refueling job at night the driver hops in and drives under the forward blade that hangs out beyond the front of the aircraft and droops really low. The result is the top of the bowser leaves a big gouge on the bottom of the blade.

Really good management is a rare thing in any government organization so what happens is that all kinds of fools end up in jobs that are far beyond their ability. They have to come up with all kinds of new ideas so that the fools in the next level up from them can say that they did a good job and move them up in the food chain where they can cause further havoc.

Really good management works on behalf of the organization to keep good systems good and only change what doesn't work.
The old saw "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is rather simple but it's wise. Wisdom and government should never be used in the same sentence with the exception of this one of course. 8) 

 

[captloadie]

Some people who have never worked in the supply system should keep in their lanes. You don't hear us whining that every time I went out to a CC-130 to rig it for a drop, the techs hadn't done their job and I had to wait.

The supply system isn't a "Just in Time System". Stores held at the unit or on the base are based on the consumption levels and stock limits provided to the supply system by the USER and the Program manager, which rarely ask the supply system important questions like what the lead times for delivery, or bother to tell the system where to source the parts/POL from.  Maybe if someone goes out to Mountainview and scrounges through the parts that are sitting out there (including brand new engines for long ago retired aircraft) maybe they will find some Chinook parts left over from the time when we ordered 5 of everything just in case.