CH47 Chinook

[Good2Golf]

Reading the report, it looks like DND potentially saved two billion dollars.

In June 2006, DND estimated total costs at $6.9B when it sought and received Cabinet approval in principle (para 6.67).  In July 2009, DND total costs were identified as $4.9B based on $2.3B actual committed capital acquisition and $2.6B budgeted in-service support for 20 years (para 6.48).

$6.9B (initial estimate) - 4.9 (actual) = $2.0B savings over the project identification, definition and development phases.

Food for thought.


Regards
G2G

 

[Strike]

Reading the report, it looks like DND potentially saved two billion dollars.

In June 2006, DND estimated total costs at $6.9B when it sought and received Cabinet approval in principle (para 6.67).  In July 2009, DND total costs were identified as $4.9B based on $2.3B actual committed capital acquisition and $2.6B budgeted in-service support for 20 years (para 6.48).

$6.9B (initial estimate) - 4.9 (actual) = $2.0B savings over the project identification, definition and development phases.

Food for thought.


Regards
G2G

I'm so throwing this in my homework on CFDS media response lines!  I would be given the topic that's getting the most attention these days.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So how the frig did the AG miss that?

 

[Good2Golf]

So how the frig did the AG miss that?

She didn't.

Her staff didn't.

It's right in the report, here.

The very first estimate that DND provided to Cabinet in early June 2006 was $6.9B.  This estimate included full life-cycle in-service support costs.  Shortly thereafter (still in June 2006), DND provided its preliminary project approval (PPA) estimates to Treasury Board.  The Government's recently-revised procurement policies, under which DND was one of the first Departments directed by Treasury Board to realign its major capital project activities, resulted in a fair degree of confusion regarding which costs were to be included within (or excluded from) budget estimates identified at various project phases.  The confusion resulted in the life-cycle in-service support costs not being included.  See Exhibit 6.6 for details.  The result was $2.0B identified in the PPA phase.  Later, as greater understanding of the still-developing Government procurement policies was developed, the life-cycle in-service support costs were reintegrated into the project budget estimates.  The resulting inclusion of those life-cycle costs in the July 2009 EPA estimates (also in Exhibit 6.6) increased the overall amount to $4.9B.  Note that this was still notably less than the very first estimate upon which Cabinet approval-in-principle was based.  Had the $2.6B in in-service support cost been included in the PPA estimate in late June 2006, the total estimated cost would have been $4.6B.

Thus, the progression of estimates would have been from an initial $6.9B to $4.6B during intermediate stages to a final $4.9B, or some $2.0B less than the amount upon which Cabinet granted its original approval for the project to proceed.

In the end, the numbers that the AG and her team include in her very own report numerically describe the progress of the project.  Technically, the final acquisition and in-service support budget was $2B or 29% lower than the original estimate.

Regards
G2G

 

[Gorgo]

Has anyone heard of which squadron would be reformed (or assigned) to take control of the CH-147s now being flown (and soon to be acquired) for the Air Force?  I know they'll be based at CFB Petawawa, which is where 427 SOAS is now based, but I doubt that squadron would take control of these beasts.

And would said squadron fall under 1 Wing's control in Kingston?

 

[MikeL]

  I know they'll be based at CFB Petawawa, which is where 427 SOAS is now based, but I doubt that squadron would take control of these beasts.

That Aviation Squadron is not just "now" based in Pet.. they've always been there.. they've just recently in the past few years become SOAS.  Also, why would you assume that 427 would not get any of the Chinooks?

 

[ModlrMike]

Hmmm..... 6 helicopters, 3 brigades.....

 

[Jammer]

All of the CH-147s will be based in Petawawa, with the exception a small number going to AETE in Cold Lake.

 

[George Wallace]

That Aviation Squadron is not just "now" based in Pet.. they've always been there.. they've just recently in the past few years become SOAS.  Also, why would you assume that 427 would not get any of the Chinooks?

Probably because they never saw the news footage of them breaking ground for the Chopper Hgr in Pet.    ;D

 

[Gorgo]

That Aviation Squadron is not just "now" based in Pet.. they've always been there.. they've just recently in the past few years become SOAS.  Also, why would you assume that 427 would not get any of the Chinooks?

Well, 427 SOAS is technically part of CANSOFCOM even if administratively, it's part of 1 Wing.  So that squadron is tasked pretty much to support JTF-2 & CSOR.

Thinking of that, I have to wonder when 400 THS in Borden will be brought up to become 2 CMBG's air support squadron.

So unless 400 will take over the CH-147s as well as fly their Griffons, you'll need a new squadron.

 

[Gorgo]

Hmmm..... 6 helicopters, 3 brigades.....

Actually, it'll be 21 helicopters (15 F models & 6 D models).

And while splitting them apart between 400 THS, 403 THTS, 430e ETAH, 438e ETAH & 408 THS (excluding 427 SOAS since they're supporting CANSOFCOM) as Heavy Transport Flights might work . . .  ???

 

[Jammer]

427 IS part of CANSOFCOM...not technically...it is.

400 will stay in Borden...period.

A new Sqn...undecided.

Once again...ALL CH-147s will be based in Petawawa...period.

 

[Jammer]

and FFS....it's spelled Chinook...(or Shithook if you've flown in them).

 

[Gorgo]

and FFS....it's spelled Chinook...(or Shithook if you've flown in them).

Only helicopter I ever flew in was a Sea King that was on HMCS Saguenay when I was deployed in the Navy for an exercise off Norway back in the late summer of 1988.  Would the Chinooks compare to that?

 

[MikeL]

Actually, it'll be 21 helicopters (15 F models & 6 D models).

And while splitting them apart between 400 THS, 403 THTS, 430e ETAH, 438e ETAH & 408 THS (excluding 427 SOAS since they're supporting CANSOFCOM) as Heavy Transport Flights might work . . .  ???

Why are you black listing CANSOFCOM from getting Chinooks?

 

[ModlrMike]

Actually, it'll be 21 helicopters (15 F models & 6 D models).

Yes, but not for several more years, and I think the OP was asking about the immediate post TFK period.

 

[Gorgo]

Why are you black listing CANSOFCOM from getting Chinooks?

No, I wasn't intentionally blacklisting them, but would a CH-147 be a better deployment platform for a CSOR company or JTF-2 troop than a Griffon?

 

[Jammer]

In some tasks...yes. The Chinook is rather big and loud to do sneeky peeky stuff that is more suited to the Griffon...such as it is.

 

[George Wallace]

No, I wasn't intentionally blacklisting them, but would a CH-147 be a better deployment platform for a CSOR company or JTF-2 troop than a Griffon?

???

I'm missing something here.  Where do you think the TAC HEL support for these two units is located?  Does it matter what platform is required, as every situation will be different? 

Seems to me you are phishing for something you know little, or nothing, about.

 

[greentoblue]

As already mentioned, all the F model Chinooks will be concentrated in Petawawa.  Consequently a new squadron will be stood up to be their home unit.  Early speculation is that 447 or 450 Sqn will be reformed as the Chinook Sqn.

Don't want to get into conops; suffice to say that the Chinooks will be a military-wide asset available to support training and deployments throughout the military ie you will see them on a regular basis in Wainwright.

As I understand it there are no plans to incorporate the D models from theatre into the new Chinook Sqn.  Operating two different fleets would require two completely different chains of training for aircrew and maintainers and a separate supply chain for each platform.  However, this being the Canadian military, stranger things have happened (don't get me started about the Maritime Helicopter replacement/CH-148 Cyclone project!).