CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[The Bread Guy]

A British defence blog's solution:

.... Whilst the Merlin has developed a bit of a reputation for being fragile and expensive to maintain it has nevertheless seen many years of service now and is finally catching its second wind of maturity.

The Royal Navy is upgrading 30 Merlin from HM1 to HM2 standard leaving 8 airframes unchanged. Initially, thinking was these 8 spare airframes would probably form part of Crowsnest getting a permanent AEW fit. Sensibly (in my opinion) the MOD and navy has decided that Crowsnest will instead be a quick fit solution to any of the HM2 fleet ensuring that we don’t end up with “fleets within fleets”.

That leaves 8 standard HM1 going spare and possibly a home for them.

If the Canadian government was to suck up the embarrassment  they could buy the AW Merlin HM2 with the 8 HM1 being given to them at a throw away price as a hot swap to get them going.

Once new build HM2 become available off the line the older HM1 in Canadian service can be upgraded to the common standard. The second article does clearly state the Canadian team did look at the HM1 in particular so is a happy solution close to hand.

The main barrier as it stands is the Omni-shambles of the Victoria class procurement, the Canadian public is not exactly happy about that disaster despite a significant proportion of blame being laid at their own door ....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The main barrier as it stands is the Omni-shambles of the Victoria class procurement, the Canadian public is not exactly happy about that disaster despite a significant proportion of blame being laid at their own door ....

Methinks, good deal or bad, given the submarine debacle, it'll be a long, long time before we buy any major used equipment from Britian.

Especially if the deal seems too good to be true

 

[The Bread Guy]

Methinks, good deal or bad, given the submarine debacle, it'll be a long, long time before we buy any major used equipment from Britian.

Especially if the deal seems too good to be true

:nod:

 

[The Bread Guy]

Meanwhile, more expertise is needed to keep the Sea King replacement project moving forward ....

.... The Department of National Defence requires support services so that the Project Management Office (PMO), Maritime Helicopter Project (MHP) is able to review, manage, and coordinate MHP acquisition deliverables related to these fields in an effective and timely fashion.

The objective of the MHP is to replace the CH-124 Sea Kings with a fleet of new maritime helicopters (MHs).  The Maritime Helicopter Acquisition and In-Service Support contracts were released in November, 2004 with the first of twenty-eight (28) MHs/CH-148s due to be delivered late in 2010.  In order to progress the CH-148 acquisition and in-service support requirements, professional support services are required.  In particular, PMO MHP requires the immediate support of a senior ILS specialist to support CM, system safety, and airworthiness
documentation support requirements ....

Am I the only one that snickered at the "timely fashion" reference?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The irony of "effective and timely fashion" is likely lost on them

The ability to Clusterf*** is the only form of excellence shown in this program.

 

[Haletown]

The irony of "effective and timely fashion" is likely lost on them

The ability to Clusterf*** is the only form of excellence shown in this program.

To be accurate, it would be the ability to Group Cluster F@ck.  Takes a team to really screw up. 

 

[MilEME09]

To be accurate, it would be the ability to Group Cluster F@ck.  Takes a team to really screw up. 

But if they all screw up, is it really screwing up? or just doing it the way they were told?

 

[ks64]

Hi everybody.
Is somebody know why the CH-148 hasn't been powered by a GE CT7-8C ?
This one was presented at Salon du Bourget in 2011 with this powerplant, and now it's equiped by a CT7-8A7... ???

 

[h3tacco]

The Interim CH-148 is equiped with the CT7-8A1. (Only four airframes)

The Final CH-148 is equiped with CT7-8A7.

The change was negotiated in the 2008 contract amendment.

I suspect who ever told you the CT7-8C was misinformed.

 

[ks64]

:facepalm:
The CH-148 Cyclone was presented at Salon du Bourget in 2011 with a CT7-8C turboshaft...

--> http://www.defense.gouv.fr/ema/sitta/les-salons-precedents/le-bourget-2011/le-bourget-2011-article <--

Oddly, after this year I can't find anything about this powerplant 

The CT7-8C is very similar to the demonstrator GE 3000 because it has a third power turbine wheel.

 

[h3tacco]

148807 that was at the Paris Airshow in 2011 had CT7-8A1 engines installed and still has CT7-8A1 installed. The text in your link is incorrect.

The CT7-8C has never been installed in a CH148 aircraft. Not sure what else to say.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

148807 that was at the Paris Airshow in 2011 had CT7-8A1 engines installed and still has CT7-8A1 installed. The text in your link is incorrect.

The CT7-8C has never been installed in a CH148 aircraft. Not sure what else to say.

If only you were a 'credible source' who worked in the MH community or something.  :blotto:

Then Ks64 might have reason to believe you....

 

[Kirkhill]

Actually H3 is an incredible source..... ;D

 

[GAP]

Actually H3 is an incredible source..... ;D

You do know you are fluffing his feathers, eh?  ;D

 

[ks64]

It's true that a governmental website is not a credible source...
I found that very suspect because in many texts I find that CH-148 is equipped with a CT7-8C...

"Initial Cyclone specifications called for GE’s 3,000 hp class CT7-8C engines, but helicopter weight growth will force another engine upgrade before the final design is ready."
(http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/canadas-ch-148-cyclones-better-late-than-never-05223/)
But it's impossible because the power of the 8C is bigger than the CT7-8A7, so this argument is fake.

Nobody have informations about this powerplant ?????

 

[George Wallace]

It's true that a governmental website is not a credible source...

Probably the problem lies in the fact that often something will get posted; but never updated in a timely manner, or by someone who is in the know.

 

[The Bread Guy]

More for the "Ain't Gonna Be Cyclones" story line from CBC.ca ....

CBC News has learned the government is considering a major rethink of how the military uses its helicopters at sea. The change, if implemented, would spell the end for a five-year-old, $5-billion contract with Sikorsky to replace Canada's aging fleet of Sea Kings, instead opting for smaller, cheaper helicopters.

The possible shift comes as part of a data-gathering engagement initiated earlier this month in which three rival helicopter manufacturers were asked to provide information about possible alternatives to the CH-148 Cyclone, including two much smaller choppers that could save the government billions of dollars.

The government wants the information by next Tuesday — an indication it may be preparing to end the nearly 25-year-long saga to replace the navy's Sea Kings and a procurement process that the then-Minister of Defence Peter MacKay called "the worst in the history of Canada."

The attempt to chart a new course for the long-delayed helicopter replacement program took place in Ottawa last Thursday at a meeting between government officials and executives of helicopter-makers Agusta Westland, Eurocopter subsidiary NH Industries and Cyclone manufacturer Sikorsky.

The fast-tracked process is an indication the government may be close to giving up on the $5-billion contract with Sikorsky for 28 Cyclone helicopters meant to replace the military workhorse Sea Kings which have been relied on for 50 years ....

 

[rathawk]

Its been a while since I logged into this site so I just noticed the question about Cyclone engines raised by Ks64:

"It's true that a governmental website is not a credible source...
I found that very suspect because in many texts I find that CH-148 is equipped with a CT7-8C...

"Initial Cyclone specifications called for GE’s 3,000 hp class CT7-8C engines, but helicopter weight growth will force another engine upgrade before the final design is ready."
(http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/canadas-ch-148-cyclones-better-late-than-never-05223/)
But it's impossible because the power of the 8C is bigger than the CT7-8A7, so this argument is fake.

Nobody have informations about this powerplant ????? "

The fact is that Sikorsky never proposed the CT7-8C engine for MHP.

The confusion about Cyclone engines undoubtedly began when GEAE and Sikorsky made a joint press announcement at the Paris Air Show in 2003 stating that the triple turbine GE CT7-8C 3000+shp engine had been selected to power the H-92 (military variant of the yet-to-be-fielded S-92).

However, in 2004 Sikorsky proposed the GE CT7-8A (2500 shp) engine for MHP.

After contract award, it became apparent to Canada that the CT7-8A engine did not meet the minimum MH performance requirements and Sikorsky and GE subsequently agreed to modifications that resulted in the currently fitted CT7-8A1 engine (in the "interim" MH).

As time went on, it became apparent to Canada that Sikorsky had grossly understated the weight of its proposed MH (the Cyclone) and it was clear that more powerful engines such as the 3000+shp CT7-8C would be required in order to meet Canada's minimum one-engine-inoperative (OEI) performance requirements.  Unfortunately, by then, President Obama and Defense Secretary Gates had mutually agreed to cancel the AW101 VH-71 program and, along with it, the development program for the super-charged CT7-8C engine that Sikorsky desperately needed for the Cyclone.

In response, Sikorsky and GEAE (at the latter's expense) agreed to a development program to squeeze every ounce of power from the existing CT7 twin turbine engine.  GE eventually achieved off-aircraft FAA certification for a fully tweaked CT7 engine in late 2011 (the CT7-8A6 & CT7-8A7 -- the latter specifically designed for the orphan Cyclone fleet).  Despite GE's valiant efforts, the CT7-8A7 was certified well short of the Cyclone's OEI power requirements.

The latter explains (but only partially) why HITACHI (in close consultation with Sikorsky) has recommended to PWGSC that Canada step back from its basic MH safety of flight requirements and agree to something less.

 

[observor 69]

Just received info that the final Hitachi report has been received and the future of this project is now being being reviewed.  A decision is expected to be announced before the 15 October throne speech.  I was also told that this decision will be the crossing of the Rubicon... if it is in favour of the Cyclone, there will be no further recourse; if its not in favour, the preferred alternative will be a directed procurement of a fleet of AW101-611 naval helicopters equipped with the GDC MH mission suite.

Any update on the way forward?

 

[rathawk]

Recommendations to the Ministers are now due to be put forward in very early November.  A request for information was issued to potential alternative suppliers in early October and responses had to be submitted not later than last Tuesday (22 October).  The RFI was not issued via MERX so the details of it are not readily available.