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CH-148 Cyclone Progress

E.R. Campbell said:
My officials tell me that the Merlin will work. I may use it as a lever to pry defence procurement out of DND ~ I wil tell my friend the MND that my department will buy him what he needs, efficiently and effectively and expeditiously if, another big, Big IF he can impose a little discipline on his admirals, generals and officials and make them give me sensible, operational, performance requirements, not their own solutions. His job is to get the money and tell me what he needs and then get out of the way; my job is to deliver.

Are you talking about requesting "effects" ?

Things like that and mission command are concepts that surely make for great discussions at the staff college, but we are not good at implementing them in our everyday functions. Actually, I found that the ANA was better at mission command than us...
 
Jungle said:
Are you talking about requesting "effects" ?

Things like that and mission command are concepts that surely make for great discussions at the staff college, but we are not good at implementing them in our everyday functions. Actually, I found that the ANA was better at mission command than us...

In late September 2001, I suggested that if we truly wanted to destroy the military ability of the Taliban we should airlift in NDHQ and put it in charge of them.
 
PanaEng said:
why? other than to reduce the price and haste delivery...


As a general rule governments, ours included, should act with caution, prudence and within the law, including within signed contracts. If, big IF, Sikorsky can deliver an acceptable (nearly compliant) machine in an acceptable time period then, in my opinion, the government should carry on with it. If, however, either Sikorsky's finished product or the time frame are unacceptable then, of course, going to an alternate is the best option. 
 
E.R. Campbell said:
As a general rule governments, ours included, should act with caution, prudence and within the law, including within signed contracts. If, big IF, Sikorsky can deliver an acceptable (nearly compliant) machine in an acceptable time period then, in my opinion, the government should carry on with it. If, however, either Sikorsky's finished product or the time frame are unacceptable then, of course, going to an alternate is the best option.
Agreed, however the timeframe is already unacceptable at 5 years past its due date.  Some times a clear message needs to be sent and we need to move on.
 
Canadian.Trucker said:
Agreed, however the timeframe is already unacceptable at 5 years past its due date.  Some times a clear message needs to be sent and we need to move on.

I find myself in agreement with Canadian Trucker.  Unless there is a really ugly skeleton hiding in one of our closets on the surface it appears that we have given Sikorsky ample opportunity to giterdun.
 
Kirkhill said:
I find myself in agreement with Canadian Trucker.  Unless there is a really ugly skeleton hiding in one of our closets on the surface it appears that we have given Sikorsky ample opportunity to giterdun.

There may not be a single ugly skeleton. When we find out how much "we" have interfered with Sikorsky getting it done, how ECR/ECP cycles were dealt with, how intransigent we have been in decision making on design options, how arbitrary we have been in interpreting specifications we will have a better sense of where all the skeletons are. 

As noted above, this has all the marks of a preemptive media blitz negotiating tactic.

Going to be fascinating to watch it play out. 
 
Everyone has focused on the helicopter, strictly from an airborne platform point of view.  Has anyone thought that maybe the Navy has invested billions of dollars in upgrading the frigates and in planning new ships all based on the Cyclone aircraft.  They have gone and redesigned the frigates to accommodate these helicopters.  If we go with a different one, will these changes suit the new helicopter or will we need go through a whole bunch of new engineering changes.  Then there is the whole helo ship integration piece.  Again, with the frigate modernization project, the Cyclone was the helicopter they were to integrate with.  How much more money will it cost to change the software to integrate with another helo?
 
Half Full said:
Everyone has focused on the helicopter, strictly from an airborne platform point of view.  Has anyone thought that maybe the Navy has invested billions of dollars in upgrading the frigates and in planning new ships all based on the Cyclone aircraft.  They have gone and redesigned the frigates to accommodate these helicopters.  If we go with a different one, will these changes suit the new helicopter or will we need go through a whole bunch of new engineering changes.  Then there is the whole helo ship integration piece.  Again, with the frigate modernization project, the Cyclone was the helicopter they were to integrate with.  How much more money will it cost to change the software to integrate with another helo?
What kind of sense does it make buying a less-than-ideal product (or one that doesn't do what else we need it to do) just because it fits on the ships?  That's like buying a crappy car/truck because it fits in your garage, no?
 
Half Full said:
Everyone has focused on the helicopter, strictly from an airborne platform point of view.  Has anyone thought that maybe the Navy has invested billions of dollars in upgrading the frigates and in planning new ships all based on the Cyclone aircraft.  They have gone and redesigned the frigates to accommodate these helicopters.  If we go with a different one, will these changes suit the new helicopter or will we need go through a whole bunch of new engineering changes.  Then there is the whole helo ship integration piece.  Again, with the frigate modernization project, the Cyclone was the helicopter they were to integrate with.  How much more money will it cost to change the software to integrate with another helo?

I do not have a dog in this fight (believe it or not), but will point out the EH-101 was found to be compatible with our frigates, twice now.  Not saying that engineering changes would not have to be made, but in the grand scheme of a 5 billion dollar (ish) project, it would be peanuts.
 
milnews.ca said:
What kind of sense does it make buying a less-than-ideal product (or one that doesn't do what else we need it to do) just because it fits on the ships?  That's like buying a crappy car/truck because it fits in your garage, no?
That`s oversimplifying the issue a little bit.  If the helo doesn`t fit in the hangar, you won`t be taking it to sea.  And if you think it won`t cost too much to retrofit the frigates to support a different helo, find out how much it cost to retrofit REGINA back to being able to support the Sea King.
 
Half Full said:
That`s oversimplifying the issue a little bit.  If the helo doesn`t fit in the hangar, you won`t be taking it to sea.
True, but if the chopper can't do the job, there's no POINT taking it to sea, even if it fits the ships.

While the ship issue is likely going to be a factor, it shouldn't be the main factor at this point.
 
milnews.ca said:
While the ship issue is likely going to be a factor, it shouldn't be the main factor at this point.
Granted.  I`m just saying they are a lot more equal than you may think.  We shouldn't`t overlook the fact that this is an Air Force asset that is specifically designed to be operated for/with/by the Navy (it is a system of systems) and you can't just have a helo that does the job, if it doesn't fit or work with our ships, much the same as you can't have a helo that doesn't do the job, eventhough it fits.  The two issues are mutually-inclusive.
 
Half Full said:
Granted.  I`m just saying they are a lot more equal than you may think.  We shouldn't`t overlook the fact that this is an Air Force asset that is specifically designed to be operated for/with/by the Navy (it is a system of systems) and you can't just have a helo that does the job, if it doesn't fit or work with our ships, much the same as you can't have a helo that doesn't do the job, eventhough it fits.  The two issues are mutually-inclusive.

At the risk of repeating myself, the EH-101 fits our frigates.  Again, no dog in this fight- just saying.
 
Half Full said:
Granted.  I`m just saying they are a lot more equal than you may think.  We shouldn't`t overlook the fact that this is an Air Force asset that is specifically designed to be operated for/with/by the Navy (it is a system of systems) and you can't just have a helo that does the job, if it doesn't fit or work with our ships, much the same as you can't have a helo that doesn't do the job, eventhough it fits.  The two issues are mutually-inclusive.

Both the Cyclone and the Merlin will fit in the hangar, and neither were spec compliant with the current SOR.  They wanted 3 feet all around it which they originally didn't have, but they would both fit.  Don't forget that the Halifax class was originally designed with the EH101 (now the AW101 in mind).  As well, people are already forgetting how tight the Sea King was in the steamers; it was measured in inches.

The Merlin would be closer to the Cyclone config for the deck... both are nose wheel config vice tail wheel like the Sea King.

Although the current SOR wants the Cyclone Mission Preparation and Analysis Service to be compatible with the ship's software, in my opinion that isn't what either spec should say, for a whole lot of reasons.  Airborne it's a non-issue because they are both spec'd to be compatible with Link, either STANAG 5511 (Link -11) or STANAG 5522 (Link-22) (this is where one of the major shortcomings currently is), and STANAG 5516 (Link 16) would also be nice but not in the current spec.

On the deck pre and post flight, it should like wise be compatible with a standard: Over-The-Horizon Gold for exchange of plot, maritime message system standard, acoustic standards, video and image standards ESM standards, etc.  The idea of connecting it directly to the ships systems have a lot of issues, just starting with what to do when operating from ashore...
 
Baz said:
Both the Cyclone and the Merlin will fit in the hangar, and neither were spec compliant with the current SOR.  They wanted 3 feet all around it which they originally didn't have, but they would both fit.  Don't forget that the Halifax class was originally designed with the EH101 (now the AW101 in mind).  As well, people are already forgetting how tight the Sea King was in the steamers; it was measured in inches.

The Merlin would be closer to the Cyclone config for the deck... both are nose wheel config vice tail wheel like the Sea King.

Although the current SOR wants the Cyclone Mission Preparation and Analysis Service to be compatible with the ship's software, in my opinion that isn't what either spec should say, for a whole lot of reasons.  Airborne it's a non-issue because they are both spec'd to be compatible with Link, either STANAG 5511 (Link -11) or STANAG 5522 (Link-22) (this is where one of the major shortcomings currently is), and STANAG 5516 (Link 16) would also be nice but not in the current spec.

On the deck pre and post flight, it should like wise be compatible with a standard: Over-The-Horizon Gold for exchange of plot, maritime message system standard, acoustic standards, video and image standards ESM standards, etc.  The idea of connecting it directly to the ships systems have a lot of issues, just starting with what to do when operating from ashore...

thank you  . . .  appreciate your insights.
 
I was commenting in another forum regarding the old CF-18 Maintenance blowup and came across this gem from 1986. The PM talking about the Sea King Replacement Project!
 
FSTO said:
I was commenting in another forum regarding the old CF-18 Maintenance blowup and came across this gem from 1986. The PM talking about the Sea King Replacement Project!
Holy crap - good catch!  Thanks for sharing.
 
Here is a fairly reasonable report of the current situation regarding the present program and the alternative-

Time for Plan B?

2013-09-11 16:37:18

By Ken Pole  -  VERTICAL Magazine



The federal government’s confirmation that it is willing to consider alternatives to the Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone for its Maritime Helicopter Project (MHP) has prompted AgustaWestland to voice renewed interest in what former Defence Minister Peter MacKay described as the “worst procurement in the history of Canada.”

It was a spokesperson for Public Works & Government Services Minister Diane Finley who disclosed in a published email that the government is “conducting an analysis of price and availability of other aircraft manufactured by other vendors.”

That was subsequently confirmed by Rear Admiral Patrick Finn, chief of staff, Material Group, at the Department of National Defence (DND). He called the development part of a reassessment of DND’s maritime needs.

"If there was to be a change of direction . . . we would have to work at what's the other solution, what's the different approach, and I wouldn't be able to give you any kind of schedule at this point," Finn told reporters. “We want to make sure that we get the capability that the navy needs and the air force operates on their behalf."

Finn also said the latest development should put pressure on Sikorsky to deliver fully-compliant aircraft rather than the few “interim” platforms being used for training at Canadian Forces Base Shearwater, N.S., where an informed sourced has told Vertical that after weeks of “absolutely no Cyclone activity,” the RCAF had begun classroom training of pilots and technicians, provided free of charge by Sikorsky. However, “backseat” tactical and sensor crewmembers, who would ordinarily sit in with the pilots, were not expected to begin classroom training until mid-October “at the earliest” because courseware was not ready.

The initial training sessions are not part of the government’s contract with Sikorsky, but are described as “an initiative between DND and Sikorsky to give the appearance that progress is being made and hopefully counter any cries for contract cancellation.” That being said, the training was expected to be a useful initial validation of the flight manuals and courseware.

Other sources have indicated that the interim Cyclones continue to have issues with engine power, vibration, electromagnetic interference and safety flotation. Sikorsky spokesman Paul Jackson would say only that the company remains focused on delivering a state-of-the-art helicopter. He declined comment on the alleged deficiencies which make the Cyclones “non-compliant” with Canadian requirements, explaining in an email that the decision not to comment was made by the OEM’s program and legal departments. “The questions focus on technical aspects of the aircraft, which by contractual agreement with the Canadian government we cannot publicly discuss,” he wrote.

Jackson did say that an independent report commissioned by Rona Ambrose, Public Works and Government Services Minister Diane Finley’s predecessor, “lays nearly all the blame for the . . . delays on the government’s procurement processes.”

The report by Hitachi Consulting states that the fundamental problem with the MHP is that “the government believed they bought an OTS (off-the-shelf) product” and that although the consultants believe that the Cyclones have the potential to offer “unsurpassed” capability, the government and Sikorsky are “misaligned in the most fundamental way.”

Hitachi has recommended that the government must act urgently to “test for program viability” by negotiating with Sikorsky and its missions-systems partner, General Dynamics Canada.

An AgustaWestland Alternative?

As for AgustaWestland, its managing director of international business, former UK Defence Secretary Geoffrey Hoon, told CBC Television from London on Sept. 10 that the Canadian government had not been “directly” in touch with the Anglo-Italian conglomerate.

“We wouldn’t expect them to before they’ve taken a decision in the interests of the Canadian people and the . . . Air Force, but we stand ready to be of assistance,” Hoon said. “We have a long record of support for helicopters in Canada and we would be delighted, obviously, if Canada decided to come to us and asked us to be of further assistance.”

AgustaWestland lost the MHP competition in 2004 even though its AW101 (designated the CH-149 Cormorant by the RCAF) fit all the requirements, and has been the backbone of Canadian military search and rescue since 2000. Sikorsky won on the basis of price for a “lowest cost compliant” helicopter.

Hoon declined to speculate on why Sikorsky now seemed stymied by the operational requirements. “That is entirely and rightly a matter for the Canadian government,” he replied. “What I can say, however, is that we have by far the best helicopter currently available on the market.”

Noting that naval variants are in service with the UK, Italy and Japan, he insisted the AW101 could satisfy Canada’s “demanding requirements” for the MHP. “I’m in absolutely no doubt that if Canada does take the decision to replace its existing helicopter, we are in a very strong position to satisfy those demanding requirements. Indeed, we conducted a very thorough survey of those requirements and I’m confident that we can meet, if not exceed, the demanding needs of Canada today. . . . We are available to supply the right machine at the right price.”

In the meantime, it has been confirmed that a Canadian government delegation has visited a Royal Navy base to have a closer look at the UK’s Merlin naval variants.

Jeremy Tracy, a former Royal Air Force pilot and AgustaWestland test pilot who is the company’s Ottawa-based head of region for Canada, acknowledged on Sept. 11 that when the company lost to Sikorsky in 2004, the venture “went off our radar until . . . the issue really started boiling up in Parliament” where the government has come under stiff criticism from the Opposition over the troubled program.

“It was apparent . . . that there were difficulties and at that stage the company reinitiated a survey of all the points of the Statement of Operational Requirements that emanated from the original competition to see whether the AW101 would be compliant,” he told Vertical. “We ascertained that the aircraft was compliant and would still meet the original DND requirements.”

Tracy said the AW101 not only “restores the range and endurance to the original specification” but also has “tremendously good” one-engine-inoperative performance, a “capacious cabin” and key safety features proven in the CH-149, including flight into icing conditions.

“One of the main benefits would be its commonality with the Cormorant, which then allows you a simpler logistics chain for the total fleet and also a common training base, which was, really, the advantage at the very outset when the aircraft was considered in the late ‘80s.

“The other thing that we stress is the NATO commonality. . . . You have essentially the same aircraft operating not only at sea but also in other trouble spots like Afghanistan, where Italy was very present and the UK, too. Denmark is going to Afghanistan at some point. So there are a number of military operators where that commonality may be prevalent.”

Its deployment to Afghanistan and Iraq also has proven the AW101’s capabilities in desert and mountain operations. “The aircraft has had really quite a good performance on the hot-and-high side, with the RAF and Italian Navy operating there,” Tracy said. “The aircraft was the battle commander’s aircraft of choice in Iraq due to availability, smoothness and speed. One of the benefits we see for the future in terms of having upgraded AW101s is the engines go to the General Electric CT7-8E engine, which has even better hot-and-high performance (than the Rolls-Royce Turbomeca RTM322 in the original aircraft). It’s one of the benefits we see for the future. Everybody’s considering that.”

He also pointed out that the aircraft has proven itself in the Canadian environment despite some early teething problems. “It’s now gone over 58,000 hours with the Canadian Forces and it has a tremendous record of availability for search and rescue – 99 per cent of the time for the SAR commitment.”

Despite his optimism, he demurred when asked how quickly AgustaWestland could begin delivering aircraft if the government did scrap its contract with Sikorsky.

“It would depend entirely on what DND wanted to pursue. If they wanted to go for a Merlin Mk 2 system, that would be a lot easier for us and Lockheed Martin, as this upgrade is just entering service. But we suspect that they won’t because they probably would want a (rear) ramped aircraft. We could produce a naval variant with that. Also, if they wanted to stay with the GDC mission system, we know nothing about that. So we would have to talk to GDC…. But if they wanted to go with a mission system that we know – we’ve obviously integrated a fair number of mission systems – into our helicopters, we could find that a lot simpler. I can’t really give you a time. . . . That would require detailed discussions.

“We would also naturally involve Canadian industry in any solution we have and we do have a current teaming agreement for 101 activities with IMP, who as you know, are already doing depot level maintenance on the Cormorant, as DND’s preferred supplier of ISS (in-service support), so they are very familiar with the type. Everything on this file depends on which course the government wishes to follow, and we can only be reactive to that; but as you can see, we have prepared for the approach – should it come.”.
 
Hmmmmm.

E.R. Provides hypothetical advice to his Minister.  I provide hypothetical advice to the C Suite at AugustaWestland

The recent interest Canada has expressed in acquiring the Merlin 2 from us is, quite frankly, a long shot.  Perhaps we should package a deal for the Canadains that would offer them solutions to multiple acquisition and maintenance problems as a means of increasing our appeal to the Canadian Forces and  resolve some political problems for the Canadain Government.

Canada purchased an orphan fleet of our EH 101's from us - we made only 15 units of that model and it really isn't a military aircraft due to its civilian electrics and electronics. These aircraft  are coming due for  a significant midlife refit program.  We should offer a package deal that would include  upgrading the Cormorant's with proper Mil Spec electrics, modern cockpit avionics and switching the old  engines out for the more common RTM322 engines.


This way Canada would simplify their maintenance complications and costs by having a  fleet of helicopters that are common technology and they would solve their Maritime Helicopter need and their need to perform a midlife technology infusion to their current fleet of SAR Cormorants.

AW should fly his on the flag pole and see if any Canadian winds blow in our direction.
 
Just received info that the final Hitachi report has been received and the future of this project is now being being reviewed.  A decision is expected to be announced before the 15 October throne speech.  I was also told that this decision will be the crossing of the Rubicon... if it is in favour of the Cyclone, there will be no further recourse; if its not in favour, the preferred alternative will be a directed procurement of a fleet of AW101-611 naval helicopters equipped with the GDC MH mission suite.
 
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