CH-146 Griffon

[Good2Golf]

In a purely Canadian-with-no-external-influence/care, that might be an understandable COA. That said, it’s just jobs in Canada, not any net income/profit. Bell Mirabel = TEXTRON

 

[KevinB]

GDLS etc
There are very few Canadian companies left - just National parts of (mostly US based) International Conglomerates.

 

[Spencer100]

GDLS etc
There are very few Canadian companies left - just National parts of (mostly US based) International Conglomerates.

There never were many. GDLS was GM Defence. DeHaviland was British etc. Bombardier was Quebec....ur Canadian. We as Canadians do a poor job with global companies. We are not big vision people. Most large Canadian companies are in most ways government regulated or controlled. Banks, Telcos, Utilities etc. The best Canadian companies get bought out or are crushed. The miners, the oil companies. Encana, Alcan,

 

[KevinB]

There never were many. GDLS was GM Defence. DeHaviland was British etc. Bombardier was Quebec....ur Canadian. We as Canadians do a poor job with global companies. We are not big vision people. Most large Canadian companies are in most ways government regulated or controlled. Banks, Telcos, Utilities etc. The best Canadian companies get bought out or are crushed. The miners, the oil companies. Encana, Alcan,

Or Crown Corps get destroyed or privatized... - Dominion Arsenal, etc.

I would have thought Canada would have gone all in with the US Army on FVL - getting a seat and regional/national inclusion.
One could have parlayed that into a good guy price on Blackhawks to make the Griffon to away to CCG, TC and/or the RCMP.

Myopic is what I'd use for a word for most of Canadian Defence

 

[Good2Golf]

There never were many. GDLS was GM Defence. DeHaviland was British etc. Bombardier was Quebec....ur Canadian. We as Canadians do a poor job with global companies. We are not big vision people. Most large Canadian companies are in most ways government regulated or controlled. Banks, Telcos, Utilities etc. The best Canadian companies get bought out or are crushed. The miners, the oil companies. Encana, Alcan,

CAE remains one of the resilient standouts, 3/4s of a century after retired RCAF aviator Kenneth Patrick founded the company in Saint-Laurent, Qc. It employs 10,000+ worldwide, half of those in Canada, has several subsidiaries in other countries but remains HQ’d in Canada/Montréal/Saint-Laurent.

 

[Spencer100]

Or Crown Corps get destroyed or privatized... - Dominion Arsenal, etc.

I would have thought Canada would have gone all in with the US Army on FVL - getting a seat and regional/national inclusion.
One could have parlayed that into a good guy price on Blackhawks to make the Griffon to away to CCG, TC and/or the RCMP.

Myopic is what I'd use for a word for most of Canadian Defence

The problem with that is Pols got burned by that last time. Chretien signed on to the F35 after the flyoff. (or even before) Then Harper just doubles down on it seeing it as the correct solution. Then politics. Trudeau wastes billions and years to go back to the beginning. So it is then seen in Ottawa, better to have a "competitive bid" process. So signing on to the winner of the FVL as a partner is a no go. (I know your bias, I would be too but do not underestimate the importance of that Bell plant) So in the Ottawa mind the best deal here is an upgrade to Griffon. No hard and dirty bidding no surprises. We have no good track record of bidding lately. And the outcome of Bell getting the contract and no surprises. Win Win Win! And the government can point and say look green helicopters. Jobs in Quebec! I my mind 99% of Ottawa says good job. Next.

 

[KevinB]

Oh yes with the fraudulent scam on the award of the Griffon in the first place (Conservatives for the Loss on that one)...

 

[Dana381]

GDLS etc
There are very few Canadian companies left - just National parts of (mostly US based) International Conglomerates.

It would almost seem like the U.S. DOD planned it that way to ensure U.S. stays on top of defense technology.

 

[KevinB]

It would almost seem like the U.S. DOD planned it that way to ensure U.S. stays on top of defense technology.

Well we don’t randomly cancel contracts and leave companies in a pickle as often…

 

[Dana381]

Well we don’t randomly cancel contracts and leave companies in a pickle as often…

What, DND looks after their contractors, look how rich Irving is getting off of them

 

[Good2Golf]

The problem with that is Pols got burned by that last time. Chretien signed on to the F35 after the flyoff. (or even before) Then Harper just doubles down on it seeing it as the correct solution. Then politics. Trudeau wastes billions and years to go back to the beginning. So it is then seen in Ottawa, better to have a "competitive bid" process. So signing on to the winner of the FVL as a partner is a no go. (I know your bias, I would be too but do not underestimate the importance of that Bell plant) So in the Ottawa mind the best deal here is an upgrade to Griffon. No hard and dirty bidding no surprises. We have no good track record of bidding lately. And the outcome of Bell getting the contract and no surprises. Win Win Win! And the government can point and say look green helicopters. Jobs in Quebec! I my mind 99% of Ottawa says good job. Next.

@Spencer100, I don’t disagree with your calculus, all other things being equal, BEFORE Uncle Sam privately read Canada the “stop being a non-contributing, un-secure leech” riot act, from which ensued the F-35 announcement, lethal weapon support for UKR, NORAD renewal announcement (which had a significant amount of the next generation of Rompin’ Ronnie Reagan’s SDI/Star Wars/BMD/CMD in it, both continental and nautical(to be)-based, and a slew of other things I’m sure, that haven’t made it to the public yet.

On topic, yeah, Horizon 1 support for on-the-surface Cdn (subsidiary of US giant) industry (Bell).

#defenseandsecuritybreadcrumbs

I’d wager that in the future, Canada also ‘decides’ to onboard with FVL and P-8. If FVL goes V-280 Valor for FLRAA, there would most certainly be some ITBs involving Mirabeland likely several sub-contractors in Canada.

 

[CBH99]

Or Crown Corps get destroyed or privatized... - Dominion Arsenal, etc.

I would have thought Canada would have gone all in with the US Army on FVL - getting a seat and regional/national inclusion.
One could have parlayed that into a good guy price on Blackhawks to make the Griffon to away to CCG, TC and/or the RCMP.

Myopic is what I'd use for a word for most of Canadian Defence

Absolutely.

I had hoped after Afghanistan, our leadership would have now been bred from the younger generation that had deployed there.

More practicality, and common sense in the immediate small picture & the bigger picture.

(Continental Defence, common vehicles & airframes to maximize, be more forward thinking, plug basic gaps, etc)

Myopic is actually a great word for us as a country these days. Shooting for mediocrity.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Truth!

 

[Underway]

I’d wager that in the future, Canada also ‘decides’ to onboard with FVL and P-8. If FVL goes V-280 Valor for FLRAA, there would most certainly be some ITBs involving Mirabeland likely several sub-contractors in Canada.

Get out of my brain. I was thinking FVL should be similar to the F-35 where we can join the project. The timelines line up roughly with the end of life of the Griffon.

Not a huge Valor fan. I'm team Defiant all the way (with no other real reason than they look cooler).

 

[Spencer100]

Get out of my brain. I was thinking FVL should be similar to the F-35 where we can join the project. The timelines line up roughly with the end of life of the Griffon.

Not a huge Valor fan. I'm team Defiant all the way (with no other real reason than they look cooler).

Look cooler? No way! Pfft...Those big beautiful tilling prop rotors are cool!

 

[Kirkhill]

Get out of my brain. I was thinking FVL should be similar to the F-35 where we can join the project. The timelines line up roughly with the end of life of the Griffon.

Not a huge Valor fan. I'm team Defiant all the way (with no other real reason than they look cooler).

I always thought the Defiant looked kind of out of balance myself

 

[daftandbarmy]

I always thought the Defiant looked kind of out of balance myself

View attachment 71283

I know a guy whose Dad was a tail gunner in a BP Defiant during the Battle for France. He got over a dozen kills, I believe.

Apparently the Germans thought they were a Hurricane, until it was too late.

Once the Luftwaffe figured it out, they got slaughtered though.

 

[Good2Golf]

Not a huge Valor fan. I'm team Defiant all the way (with no other real reason than they look cooler).

Me too. I’d take 30 less kts and have the tighter footprint with the co-ax rotor system.

 

[Spencer100]

Me too. I’d take 30 less kts and have the tighter footprint with the co-ax rotor system.

Hey I thought we are talking cooler factor. Which toy are the kids going to buy, the double blade one or the cool looking tilling props and wings? You and your it need to work in combat stuff. Its is the licensing deals that matter

 

[Underway]

Me too. I’d take 30 less kts and have the tighter footprint with the co-ax rotor system.

Ok good, my thoughts were the same regarding the footprint but not being a helo guy. Those big wings out on the sides from the Bell offering just seemed like they would be more of a liability for the army. One of the design goals of the Defiant team was that the helicopter could fit into the same footprint as the Blackhawk and perform all the exact same missions because of that.

What are your thoughts on the FARA program? Raider seems better as it would match the speed of whatever was chosen for FLRAA and thus could escort if necessary. Not sure the Invictus would be able to do that.