CF moving to Multicam?

[FSTO]

Well, the CDS did the same in Comox a little while ago, as did the Comd RCAF in the fall. 

The folks across the pond do homecoming parades in combats as well:

So its an army and RCAF thing. I think it's wrong and I hate seeing the Navy being sucked down into this slovenly attitude, but if people are making it up as they go along, I guess our next parade we'll do white gaiters for the sailors and black leather gaiters and brown gloves for the officers.

To quote my parents, "Would you jump off a bridge because everyone else is doing it?"

 

[dapaterson]

So its an army and RCAF thing. I think it's wrong and I hate seeing the Navy being sucked down into this slovenly attitude, but if people are making it up as they go along, I guess our next parade we'll do white gaiters for the sailors and black leather gaiters and brown gloves for the officers.

Yep.  I figured the RCN would be the first to do nude formal parades.  Although I thought the officers might try to colour co-ordinate their gaiters and gloves, if that's all that they'll be wearing...

 

[Loachman]

Generally, in Commonwealth and other Armed Forces, today's service dress uniform was yesterday's combat uniform. The predecessor units of the one on parade in the preceding photograph once fought in the same scarlets as the band is wearing, which was subsequently replaced with khaki drab service dress for field use. Tomorrow's field uniform will likely be form-fitting spandex with a powered armored exoskeleton and modular built-in radios, sensors, and weapons, and automatic chameleon camouflage, whereupon today's CADPAT will become the dress uniform.

And the IDF does not even issue a dress uniform to the vast majority of it's personnel.

 

[FSTO]

Generally, in Commonwealth and other Armed Forces, today's service dress uniform was yesterday's combat uniform. The predecessor units of the one on parade in the preceding photograph once fought in the same scarlets as the band is wearing, which was subsequently replaced with khaki drab service dress for field use. Tomorrow's field uniform will likely be form-fitting spandex with a powered armored exoskeleton and modular built-in radios, sensors, and weapons, and automatic chameleon camouflage, whereupon today's CADPAT will become the dress uniform.

And the IDF does not even issue a dress uniform to the vast majority of it's personnel.

I'm glad I'll be retired before that happens.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So its an army and RCAF thing. I think it's wrong and I hate seeing the Navy being sucked down into this slovenly attitude, but if people are making it up as they go along, I guess our next parade we'll do white gaiters for the sailors and black leather gaiters and brown gloves for the officers.

To quote my parents, "Would you jump off a bridge because everyone else is doing it?"

There was a saying when I was in the army...

"No inspection-ready unit will likely pass combat, and no combat-ready unit will likely pass an inspection".

I've done CofC parades in combat w/FFO.

Come to think of it, what I consider the most important type of parades, they all seem to be in CADPAT...

 

[FSTO]

There was a saying when I was in the army...

"No inspection-ready unit will likely pass combat, and no combat-ready unit will likely pass an inspection".

I've done CofC parades in combat w/FFO.

Just because these "traditions" are part of the Army does not mean they have to leak over into the RCN. I have no snappy sayings to counteract your Army mantra, I just feel in my bones that the creeping leisure suit Larry look has no place in the Navy when we're ashore.

 

[MilEME09]

That would never happen if we didn't keep trying to parade in clothing that was never supposed to be used for parades!  There is NO good reason for any unit to "parade" in operational clothing.  Just as there is no good reason for anyone to wear operational clothing in climate-controlled offices in Canada.  Perhaps if we only used operational clothing for the purposes for which it was designed (field/sea operations) than we wouldn't have the shortages we do with desk officers wearing out our most expensive clothing while sitting at a computer in Ottawa.

So a return of Garrison dress?

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[Kat Stevens]

So a return of Garrison dress?

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Now that I'll never ever have to wear it again, I say go for it!

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just because these "traditions" are part of the Army does not mean they have to leak over into the RCN. I have no snappy sayings to counteract your Army mantra, I just feel in my bones that the creeping leisure suit Larry look has no place in the Navy when we're ashore.

I must admit that I think it's stupid (and somewhat disrespectful) to parade the colours in combat/Cadpat gear. Unless you're in a theatre of operations I guess.

I assume that it's a bad habit we've acquired from Uncle Sam. Good thing we don't have helmet liners anymore or I assume we'd be polishing those too, instead of our boots and the rocks

 

[Happy Guy]

When I joined the CF, over 34 years ago, all parades were done in CF greens and forage caps.  We never wore combats while on a formal parade.  The default these days to wear operational dress for almost all occasions really bothers me. We now have an entire generation of soldiers (I don't know about the Navy or AF) who probably don't even know how to wear the DEUs properly.  I was at CFSU(O) Clothing Stores several years ago and an Army Cpl didn't know which direction the CD should be while wearing undressed ribbons. The group that she was with didn't know either.  I had to show her and her friends.

At the risk of sounding like a dinosaur, I was an NCO not so long ago, I am deeply disappointed at the slovenly dress standards today.  Members wearing wrinkled CADPAT uniforms with scrunched name tags and flags.  People wear poorly ironed shirts and boots/shoes with no effort to even brush shine them.  No one seems to respect the uniform that they are wearing these days. SrNCOs not doing their jobs to enforce dress discipline and young Officers flaunting the dress regulations gets me upset.  Although I shall be retiring soon, I still make a conscientious effort to ensure that my uniforms are clean, tidy and presentable in the streets.  Yes, I try to look presentable while I wear civilian clothes too but this is more to please my wife than the general public.

Sigh, ... I'm a cranky old soon to be pensioned dinosaur.

Cheers

 

[Eye In The Sky]

SrNCOs not doing their jobs to enforce dress discipline...

Why do people always point to the Sgts and never the Warrant Officers?

I see 2 different but related problems with the standard of dress seen these days:

1.  Self-discipline; the levels are down (doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time, when no one is watching).  And not just the jnr ranks, either.  I see as many shitpump uniforms on Junior Officers as I do Jnr ranks (Avr - MCpl).

2.  Enforcement of standards;  this is not just a Snr NCO problem (Warrant Officers are not Snr NCOs, the same as OCdt's are not Jnr Officers.  Yes, there's a big deal and yes, people still want to kick others who let things like this go because ""its not important").  Cpl's are Jnr NCOs, the same as MCpl's are.  If I see an Avr out of dress, who am I going to correct?  I am going to find the MCpl on his/her crew and talk to them.  They should then speak to the Cpl on his/her crew, who should pull the Avr aside.  If its bad enough, sure I will correct on the spot but I am still going to find that MCpl.  If I don't MAKE the Cpl do his job and MAKE the MCpl do their job, and let them know, yes I AM watching, what is the motivation for them to do it, all the time?  It used to be a different thing, but I refer you to Point #1 above.

This goes for Officers as well.  If you see people in your unit lines that look like they ironed their 3B, as an example, with a cold potato...well, you have a unit Warrant Officer of some kind to handle that if they are NCMs.  If they are Officers and subordinates, deal with it yourself, go to the unit Adjt or whoever is the *hammer* in the Jnr Officer world.  If they are senior to you, well deal with it the best way you can.  Maybe talk to the MWO, who will talk to the DCO or something and then the message gets sent out to everyone.  Personally, I have no issues at all telling a Jnr Officer they are doing something contrary to CF/RCAF/Wing/Sqn Dress Instructions.  There is a professional way to do it, of course, but it has and likely will happen again and is usually worded as a suggestion. 

If dress and deportment standards are that atrocious at a unit anyone is in, and you are a minimum rank of Jnr NCO (Cpl), then that is a leadership issue that you need to be part of the solution to.  If the MCpls and Lt's are all walking around like bags of shit, then that suggests to me that the Sgts and Capt's aren't doing their jobs as superiors. 

** reference for my "Warrant Officers are not Snr NCOs" comment.  QR & O, Vol 1, Chap 1, Art 1.02 'Definitions'

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;

and CAF Rank & Appointment Insignia. 

Dress and deportment aren't the only things that have seen a drop in the standard;  GSK (General Service Knowledge) has as well.  Like referring to anyone in the NCM Corps above the rank of Sgt/P02 as a SNCO. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Why do people always point to the Sgts and never the Warrant Officers?

Cuz Sgts are the backbone of the organization.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Sigh, ... I'm a cranky old soon to be pensioned dinosaur.

You'll need to change your moniker then, me thinks. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Generally, in Commonwealth and other Armed Forces, today's service dress uniform was yesterday's combat uniform. The predecessor units of the one on parade in the preceding photograph once fought in the same scarlets as the band is wearing, which was subsequently replaced with khaki drab service dress for field use. Tomorrow's field uniform will likely be form-fitting spandex with a powered armored exoskeleton and modular built-in radios, sensors, and weapons, and automatic chameleon camouflage, whereupon today's CADPAT will become the dress uniform.

*mind blown*

 

[Ostrozac]

When I joined the CF, over 34 years ago, all parades were done in CF greens and forage caps.  We never wore combats while on a formal parade.

I joined the CF over 26 years ago, and my sense at that time was that dress for parades seemed to be very much unit dependent. The Canadian Airborne Regiment seemed to rarely wear CFs (or later DEU), while the battalions of The RCR were bringing dress uniforms and colours for parades while deployed on operations in Cyprus.

I've suggested in the past that we should readopt Battle Dress (in appropriate modern synthetic fabrics) to fill the niche that was supposed to be filled by Garrison Dress -- a uniform cheaper and better looking than Combat Uniform but still durable enough for routine garrison work (have you ever crawled under a desk to reattach a disconnected printer cable while in DEU 3B? I have, and you don't resurface looking ready for parade).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

(have you ever crawled under a desk to reattach a disconnected printer cable while in DEU 3B? I have, and you don't resurface looking ready for parade).

OK. I just have to intervene here.

First, are you seriously suggesting that the one time in your life (Ok, maybe two or three out of a 26 years career) that you had to get under your desk to reattach a cable justifies dressing sloppily in CADPAT or acquiring a "garrison" dress of sorts?

Second, even while working at desk jobs in DEU, nobody is suggesting that you should be as spit and polish as if you were about to step on parade. There is the daily standard (and I have said it before - the standard is following good business attire practices from the professionals in your city, and no, I don't count engineers and software coders as professionals  ;D) which is clean, generally pressed and shoes black and clean - not necessarily "spit-shinned", and then there is the parade level for parades and important functions which has all the polish and crisp press in the world.

Finally, and I know this is something else the Navy is anal retentive about ... but have you considered getting your office cleaned properly by the personnel responsible for cleaning it up?  You know, regular cleaning stations of everything, over, under and all nook and crannies followed by an inspection, flashlight in hand, and perhaps a Captain's inspection from time to time! Then you could go under your desk occasionally without coming out covered in dust  [.

 

[Happy Guy]

I have reattached a cable underneath my desk while in DEU 3B.  I placed a couple of paper towels on the carpet to protect my pants.  When I got up I straighten my pants and shirt and I looked fine.

What you seem to be advocating is a return to a work dress uniform which I used to call the bus driver uniform.  I wore work dress while I posted in Calgary and garrison dress while I was working at LFCHQ St Hubert.  It was functional if you worked in an office environment or warehouse.  The problem with the work dress was that you didn't look military.  I do not want a return to a work dress type uniform because of the high cost, and we (the CAF) are frankly not capable of designing a uniform that is functional, comfortable, stylish and sufficiently military looking.  I believe that the Army made a bad style and comfort choice when we got rid of the CF Greens and accepted the DEUs.  A return to more universally recognized khaki brown uniform with a more modern cut would have been better.

I'm with OGBD here, what we have now is fine.  Leave it alone.

Back on topic, I'll agree that further analysis is required.  I've seen the British, US Army and USMC versions of the MultiCam and I have no idea which of these cam patterns will suit our requirements.  I think that if we do change the Army operational dress please re-look at the design of the uniform and not just the cam pattern.  Get rid of the velcro as much as you can!  Give me buttons for my pockets any day.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

But...what would we do with the patches everyone is sporting now?

It might be out officially now;  RCAF pers will be allowed to wear sqn patches, skill/qual badges, etc on their CADPAT now. 

 

[MilEME09]

But...what would we do with the patches everyone is sporting now?

It might be out officially now;  RCAF pers will be allowed to wear sqn patches, skill/qual badges, etc on their CADPAT now.

I have started seeing senior officers wearing Div patches so im not surprised.

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[George Wallace]

you seem to be advocating is a return to a work dress uniform which I used to call the bus driver uniform.  I wore work dress while I posted in Calgary and garrison dress while I was working at LFCHQ St Hubert.  It was functional if you worked in an office environment or warehouse.  The problem with the work dress was that you didn't look military.  I do not want a return to a work dress type uniform because of the high cost, and we (the CAF) are frankly not capable of designing a uniform that is functional, comfortable, stylish and sufficiently military looking.  I believe that the Army made a bad style and comfort choice when we got rid of the CF Greens and accepted the DEUs.  A return to more universally recognized khaki brown uniform with a more modern cut would have been better.

Well....If having Work Dress pants and boots bloused doesn't look military, I don't know what would.  I guess you will win the argument though, as there seems to be a shortage of boots.  >