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I knew what you meant, but I was doing a pre-emptive strike, before someone mis-read.Sigs Guy said:
CF experience relevant to RCMP, civ policing? (merged)
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Allright, I'll try to set the record straight here. First things first, I have enjoyed some of my time in the army, and do value alot of what I have done, but in the long run I would rather do something else with my life, and in some ways do wish that I had done something other then sign the four year contract which I will fullfill. Second, I will work as hard as I can at my job when I am at regiment, or any other posting I get, as well as work my *** off on tour in order to ensure that my job is being done. Finally, I do have a few beef's with the army experience, but then again that might change over time, and I'm sure it will, I think that alot of recruits have had the same perspective before me.
If I have offended anyone here, I apologize for it, especially to any NCO or former member of the military who has responded back to me. Next time around I will stay more in STFU mode unless I actaully have experience in what I'm talking about, or when I feel I can give an honest opinion.
If I have offended anyone here, I apologize for it, especially to any NCO or former member of the military who has responded back to me. Next time around I will stay more in STFU mode unless I actaully have experience in what I'm talking about, or when I feel I can give an honest opinion.
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sounds fair to me.Sigs Guy said:
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Sigs Guy said:
The hardcore comment wasn't directed at you, it was with Hoovers apparently being dazzled at your brilliant wit and being impressed with simply fulfilling your contract. Sorry if you took it personal.
I think I'm about done here too, unless anyone has any police-ish questions.
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Actaully, to bring it up will a police service help a member if they are seeking a post secondary education. I've been thinking of possible getting a degree in education, however at the same time am interested in doing policework?
As well has anybody heard about the possibility of creating a Border Patrol similiar to the one in the US, I remember hearing some talk about it, but I'm not sure if its just talk?
As well has anybody heard about the possibility of creating a Border Patrol similiar to the one in the US, I remember hearing some talk about it, but I'm not sure if its just talk?
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Sigs Guy said:
Yep- but I think it has to be either a professional degree or an advanced degree at the master's level. I went to law school with a York Region copper and did my MBA with a female RCMP inspector. In both cases, they were there on the force's dime for reimbursement after they passed, although I think the York copper had to fight for remibursement all the way to an arbitration decision.
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No Neck & Spot On: both bang on on your earlier postings.
Cruising around and found this topic. CF Infantry Sgt retired (makes me feel old saying that), 2 yrs reserves followed by 9 yrs regs, and now a constable with a large municipal police service for the last few years.
I'll exapnd more or respond later on this topic, but what a member of the CF interested in applying to the police should keep at the forefront, is that what recruiters look for are life experience, common sense, discipline and work ethic, and they know that a good number (not all mind you) of military members possess these traits, regardless of their trade.
There is no perfect job, there are problems and politics everywhere, but I love it , and glad I made the change; just wish I had been eligible to get the "10 years service - get a half-pension" option, which the CF did away with a few years before I got out! Oh well, nice chunk of RRSP's with my return of contributions.... I digress......
It's not a job for everyone, but it is for some, and Iin my opinion, if you have the aforementioned traits and are interested, give it a shot.
And for the record, I know that square-jawed ex-PPCLI officer well that PAFFO-guy (sorry, it's late) mentioned earlier, and I've never experienced that attitude (yet, anyway).
So yes, it is an advantage to have served in the military, but not with the mindset that "I know how to shoot, can kick the cr*p outta people, yell & swear" but more so in the ability to think on your feet and work hard. It is not a guarantee to being accepted, nor should it be, but it is an valued asset. And I've been told this by a senior member of our recruiting unit recently, which is looking at how to attract & recruit more military members in the near future.
Victoria Patricia...
Cruising around and found this topic. CF Infantry Sgt retired (makes me feel old saying that), 2 yrs reserves followed by 9 yrs regs, and now a constable with a large municipal police service for the last few years.
I'll exapnd more or respond later on this topic, but what a member of the CF interested in applying to the police should keep at the forefront, is that what recruiters look for are life experience, common sense, discipline and work ethic, and they know that a good number (not all mind you) of military members possess these traits, regardless of their trade.
There is no perfect job, there are problems and politics everywhere, but I love it , and glad I made the change; just wish I had been eligible to get the "10 years service - get a half-pension" option, which the CF did away with a few years before I got out! Oh well, nice chunk of RRSP's with my return of contributions.... I digress......
It's not a job for everyone, but it is for some, and Iin my opinion, if you have the aforementioned traits and are interested, give it a shot.
And for the record, I know that square-jawed ex-PPCLI officer well that PAFFO-guy (sorry, it's late) mentioned earlier, and I've never experienced that attitude (yet, anyway).
So yes, it is an advantage to have served in the military, but not with the mindset that "I know how to shoot, can kick the cr*p outta people, yell & swear" but more so in the ability to think on your feet and work hard. It is not a guarantee to being accepted, nor should it be, but it is an valued asset. And I've been told this by a senior member of our recruiting unit recently, which is looking at how to attract & recruit more military members in the near future.
Victoria Patricia...
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Sigs Guy said:
It will likely be covered in the individual contracts with each service. Ours gets you a Ba or BSc, and several college courses. After that, you are on your own.
Sigs Guy said:
The border patrol is a work in progress, and will not likely be around for many, many years. The CBSA is having a hard enough time converting from tax collection to enforcement. I don't know if the Fed is ready to create an entire new agency just yet. PM WR for a better sum up of border issues.
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BEN 621 said:
Make sure you tell MTK that he had some of the ladies in the group swooning with his demeanour. (Nothing says lovin' like a square-jawed copper telling it like it is, evidently!)
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paffomaybe said:
+1 ;D
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My .02 cents...
To sorta redirect this back to why this thread was initially started, I would think military service would make you and your resume look better. I heard being commissioned is a huge bonus because being an officer, you're in a position of leadership constantly. Beyond that, when it comes to written tests, physical tests, POLYGRAPH tests and interviews, it's all you and you alone. Someone off the street might have just as good civvie experiences and can be just as coherent, articulate and intelligent...and have a 'better' background (having high levels of integrity). Of course, experiences and habits learned in the military would help you through the police selection process (I would assume anyway).
One big thing I've seen that they're looking for is volunteer work, which has already been covered before. Volunteering with police forces ('crime watch' usually) is extremely valuable because it shows you've been exposed to police officers and police procedures. Finances are a big factor as well. You can't be in too much debt... but if you're in the military being paid the big bucks, you should be ok. The RCMP is one of the few police forces out there that pay for your training. I think Calgary and Edmonton do as well. Any police force training in BC is paid out of your own pocket: approx $9,000-$10,000. If you apply to several police forces at the same time, that can produce negative effects. On one side, you're increasing your chances of being hired by someone; on the other side, the police forces you might be applying to might question your loyalty or wonder if you plan on transferring elsewhere after a couple years. At that point they lose their investment. I live in Victoria, on Vancouver Island BC. I applied to the Vancouver city police and I was grilled on the phone and then during my interview for the simple fact that I live in Victoria and volunteer for the Victoria Police Dept (Vancouver was the only city I applied to, by the way). When you're interviewed, make sure you know a lot about the city you're applying to: mayor, chief of police, population, number of municipalities, number of police officers in the department in question. I also read a post somewhere here where military people are considered too rigid and regimented. I don't know if there's any truth to that but police officers have to have anything but 'linear' thinking.
This turned out to be more of a "tips on police recruiting than anything else" post. Oh well, maybe it'll help someone down the line. One interesting fact which I don't think I read in this entire thread is: If you served in the military for a certain amount of time and you are accepted into the RCMP, your pension is transferred and years of service are credited. To get your full pension in the RCMP, it's 25 years just like the military. If you spend 5 years in the military, well your 25 year police career just got knocked down to 20 years if you like. Pretty cool stuff... and you can wear your medals. I'm not sure about qualifications like jump wings on RCMP uniforms... it would be interesting to find out though.
(disclaimer: I didn't get into the Van PD because I was not 'allowed' to get hooked up to the polygraph machine. The interview 'thought' I was lying and decided to shut my file down. So I'm no expert, I'm just voicing my thoughts on this thread.)
To sorta redirect this back to why this thread was initially started, I would think military service would make you and your resume look better. I heard being commissioned is a huge bonus because being an officer, you're in a position of leadership constantly. Beyond that, when it comes to written tests, physical tests, POLYGRAPH tests and interviews, it's all you and you alone. Someone off the street might have just as good civvie experiences and can be just as coherent, articulate and intelligent...and have a 'better' background (having high levels of integrity). Of course, experiences and habits learned in the military would help you through the police selection process (I would assume anyway).
One big thing I've seen that they're looking for is volunteer work, which has already been covered before. Volunteering with police forces ('crime watch' usually) is extremely valuable because it shows you've been exposed to police officers and police procedures. Finances are a big factor as well. You can't be in too much debt... but if you're in the military being paid the big bucks, you should be ok. The RCMP is one of the few police forces out there that pay for your training. I think Calgary and Edmonton do as well. Any police force training in BC is paid out of your own pocket: approx $9,000-$10,000. If you apply to several police forces at the same time, that can produce negative effects. On one side, you're increasing your chances of being hired by someone; on the other side, the police forces you might be applying to might question your loyalty or wonder if you plan on transferring elsewhere after a couple years. At that point they lose their investment. I live in Victoria, on Vancouver Island BC. I applied to the Vancouver city police and I was grilled on the phone and then during my interview for the simple fact that I live in Victoria and volunteer for the Victoria Police Dept (Vancouver was the only city I applied to, by the way). When you're interviewed, make sure you know a lot about the city you're applying to: mayor, chief of police, population, number of municipalities, number of police officers in the department in question. I also read a post somewhere here where military people are considered too rigid and regimented. I don't know if there's any truth to that but police officers have to have anything but 'linear' thinking.
This turned out to be more of a "tips on police recruiting than anything else" post. Oh well, maybe it'll help someone down the line. One interesting fact which I don't think I read in this entire thread is: If you served in the military for a certain amount of time and you are accepted into the RCMP, your pension is transferred and years of service are credited. To get your full pension in the RCMP, it's 25 years just like the military. If you spend 5 years in the military, well your 25 year police career just got knocked down to 20 years if you like. Pretty cool stuff... and you can wear your medals. I'm not sure about qualifications like jump wings on RCMP uniforms... it would be interesting to find out though.
(disclaimer: I didn't get into the Van PD because I was not 'allowed' to get hooked up to the polygraph machine. The interview 'thought' I was lying and decided to shut my file down. So I'm no expert, I'm just voicing my thoughts on this thread.)
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Wow, I just saw this thread. Shot's fired....
I feel I have to weigh in here. I can't help that think my military time helped with my application, because without it, I didn't bring much to the table. I had a grade 12 education, and a background in security work (as in security guard, and yes, at a mall for part of it).
My interview to this day is I think where I nailed my spot in the RCMP, and most of that was speaking about experiences I drew off my time in. So in short, I think military time helps.
Sigs Guy, I have to make some observations, and they are not meant as slights. I don't want to open up that door again. But that being said, if you get into the RCMP or another force, I don't want you in my office. You have to be hardcore to some degree, because when the shit hits the fan, you better be able to put rounds downrange and drag me out of there. Because I would do it for you. And I think you have some misconceptions about Policing. You know what I just spent the last two hours (on my day off I might add) doing? Marking my recruit's Mod A training package. It's not all running and gunning, while wearing Oakleys and hitting on chicks. Far from it. There is more paperwork and policy guiding your actions than you can ever hope to imagine. It is long hours, uncomfortable work conditions, and can go from weeks of sheer boredom to seconds of sheer terror. You will see many dead people, some of which died horribly, you will have to tell loved ones that there (fill in family person here) is dead. And then you will have to go write hours of paper about it, and go home to a normal life. And by that I mean
"How was your day honey?"
"Oh, fine... I had to do my TPS reports over again. How was yours?"
"Great! I got to shovel some kids brains off the road after he got hit by a truck, and then go tell his mom that it was his fault for riding his bike like a jackass! And then I got my twenty reports bounced back because they didn't have enough detail."
Your comments in here leave me with the feeling that you are not ready for this life yet. I'm not saying you won't be later, but life experience is a must. You will here that from any officer who posts in here. You will get lots of that in the military. And at 19 years of age, you just don't have enough. I hope that didn't sting too much, that was not my intention. PM me if you want some help/advise about what could help down the road.
I feel I have to weigh in here. I can't help that think my military time helped with my application, because without it, I didn't bring much to the table. I had a grade 12 education, and a background in security work (as in security guard, and yes, at a mall for part of it).
My interview to this day is I think where I nailed my spot in the RCMP, and most of that was speaking about experiences I drew off my time in. So in short, I think military time helps.
Sigs Guy, I have to make some observations, and they are not meant as slights. I don't want to open up that door again. But that being said, if you get into the RCMP or another force, I don't want you in my office. You have to be hardcore to some degree, because when the shit hits the fan, you better be able to put rounds downrange and drag me out of there. Because I would do it for you. And I think you have some misconceptions about Policing. You know what I just spent the last two hours (on my day off I might add) doing? Marking my recruit's Mod A training package. It's not all running and gunning, while wearing Oakleys and hitting on chicks. Far from it. There is more paperwork and policy guiding your actions than you can ever hope to imagine. It is long hours, uncomfortable work conditions, and can go from weeks of sheer boredom to seconds of sheer terror. You will see many dead people, some of which died horribly, you will have to tell loved ones that there (fill in family person here) is dead. And then you will have to go write hours of paper about it, and go home to a normal life. And by that I mean
"How was your day honey?"
"Oh, fine... I had to do my TPS reports over again. How was yours?"
"Great! I got to shovel some kids brains off the road after he got hit by a truck, and then go tell his mom that it was his fault for riding his bike like a jackass! And then I got my twenty reports bounced back because they didn't have enough detail."
Your comments in here leave me with the feeling that you are not ready for this life yet. I'm not saying you won't be later, but life experience is a must. You will here that from any officer who posts in here. You will get lots of that in the military. And at 19 years of age, you just don't have enough. I hope that didn't sting too much, that was not my intention. PM me if you want some help/advise about what could help down the road.
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Blackhorse7 said:
Then clearly you should check out municipal policing. ;D
Seriously though, bang on post.
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Military experience can't hurt and would be a definite asset going through police college or on a tactical unit, however military experience alone won't cut it getting you through the door. In most cases hiring of new recruits comes after a lengthy process of tests, interviews and a point system awarded for education, language skills, physical fitness and life experience. The military would count as part of life experience but so would most other careers. Couple that with the fact that police recruiters would give points for visible minorities and women. So the bottom line is that you are competing for the position from a pool of applicants, and they'll take the ones that score highest. Once hired military experience won't make you a better cop, same way a University Degree won't make you a better cop. That has more to do with personality/ social character traits. Your personality traits seem to magnified once someone becomes a cop. If he /she is an idiot or lazy, they'll just become idiot or lazy cops!
Another factor is that police recruiters are not 'street cops' and will most likely tend to go the way of political correctness when assessing an individual. I have actually heard of a 5 year wonder female recruiting officer with Ottawa Police reject a Toronto officer with over 10 years experience who wanted to return to Ottawa. That said, the officer was snapped up by another police service in the Ottawa area.
If you are seriously trying to get hired by a police department... 1. Get in excellent shape 2. Brush up on reading, writing and grammar 3. Become involved in your community 4. Learn sign language (if you don't speak another language) 5. Develope your communication skills 6. Let them know why you are better than the next plug in line to be interviewed. 7 Stay in school / don't do drugs.
Max out as many points as you can
Another factor is that police recruiters are not 'street cops' and will most likely tend to go the way of political correctness when assessing an individual. I have actually heard of a 5 year wonder female recruiting officer with Ottawa Police reject a Toronto officer with over 10 years experience who wanted to return to Ottawa. That said, the officer was snapped up by another police service in the Ottawa area.
If you are seriously trying to get hired by a police department... 1. Get in excellent shape 2. Brush up on reading, writing and grammar 3. Become involved in your community 4. Learn sign language (if you don't speak another language) 5. Develope your communication skills 6. Let them know why you are better than the next plug in line to be interviewed. 7 Stay in school / don't do drugs.
Max out as many points as you can
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rregtc-etf said:
I don't agree at all. If you have been a soldier you will have experience with getting past verbal abuse and staying focused, physically difficult tasks and driving your body. I know that it was the military that gave me my ability to function for 36 hours straight without sleep. Pretty handy on a stake out. As well, few civilian areas push leadership the way the military does. You don't need to have CF experience to be a good cop, but having it will go a long way to making you one.
I do agree that university doesn't help towards being a good officer.
rregtc-etf said:
Is this from your personal experience or are you just assuming? Are you or have you been a police officer?
rregtc-etf said:
Again, from what point of qualification do you speak? One of the people who does the screening for our Department retired after 37 years and never worked a shift off the road. And if you accused him of political correctness you would likely get a bear paw upside your head. There are a host of reasons for not hiring someone. Simply putting in ten years somewhere doesn't make you a good worker. Look at how many people have CD's
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Zipperhead...
+1...
+1...
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Hi Zipper,
I agree with what you are saying in an overall sense that military experience would be a benefit to the individual officer, however the question was," Will military experience up the chances for police recruiting?" When referring to the recruiters I was just making a generalization, of course it can't apply to every individual. In my 20 years plus police experience including uniform, tactical, supervisory and detective work I have found that my military experience was an asset when it came to firearms confidence and time management. It did not do anything for investigative technique, interviewing witnesses, interrogating suspects, recognizing and preserving evidence, discretion, or being able to pick out the real shitheads from the wannabe criminals.
Many, if not all, of the best police officers I have worked with have no military background but have properly learned their skills from scratch through a series of competent coach officers. There is no such thing as a born police officer or detective, it is a learned thing and some people are better learners than others (I think that is a personality trait). Most police work is OJT, it would be next to impossible for a 20 year officer who has never worked in an investigative office to write even a simple search warrant and have a hope in hell of getting it signed by a JP or Judge.
Incidentally, I have never been the subject of verbal abuse, if I had the grounds I would arrest, caution or lay paper, if not FIDO. I'm not paid to be shouted at by an idiot, that's not to say that some goofy teenager has never told me to F*** off or called me a pig...big deal. In my humble opinion, any police officer that engages in arguments or lectures members of the public (with the exception of children on traffic safety) is a moron.
As far as stake outs, I've never worked on a surveillance team, so any "stake out" or crime scene protection I have done has never been longer than my tour of duty. In this day and age they don't pay you overtime to sit and watch a building, if required you will be relieved by another officer.
I stand by my previous post.
I agree with what you are saying in an overall sense that military experience would be a benefit to the individual officer, however the question was," Will military experience up the chances for police recruiting?" When referring to the recruiters I was just making a generalization, of course it can't apply to every individual. In my 20 years plus police experience including uniform, tactical, supervisory and detective work I have found that my military experience was an asset when it came to firearms confidence and time management. It did not do anything for investigative technique, interviewing witnesses, interrogating suspects, recognizing and preserving evidence, discretion, or being able to pick out the real shitheads from the wannabe criminals.
Many, if not all, of the best police officers I have worked with have no military background but have properly learned their skills from scratch through a series of competent coach officers. There is no such thing as a born police officer or detective, it is a learned thing and some people are better learners than others (I think that is a personality trait). Most police work is OJT, it would be next to impossible for a 20 year officer who has never worked in an investigative office to write even a simple search warrant and have a hope in hell of getting it signed by a JP or Judge.
Incidentally, I have never been the subject of verbal abuse, if I had the grounds I would arrest, caution or lay paper, if not FIDO. I'm not paid to be shouted at by an idiot, that's not to say that some goofy teenager has never told me to F*** off or called me a pig...big deal. In my humble opinion, any police officer that engages in arguments or lectures members of the public (with the exception of children on traffic safety) is a moron.
As far as stake outs, I've never worked on a surveillance team, so any "stake out" or crime scene protection I have done has never been longer than my tour of duty. In this day and age they don't pay you overtime to sit and watch a building, if required you will be relieved by another officer.
I stand by my previous post.
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Rregtc-etf
I agree, but only to a point. I'll conceed that my military time did nothing to prepare me for investigative techniques and the like. However, the pace and long hours of Depot were a non-issue for me, as I was now accustomed to having to be up for days on end from the military. A lot of non-military subjects had a real hard time with the long days. Similarly, having respect for a rank structure was already a part of me. I'm sure with your 20 years as a Police Officer you could agree with me that members are not today what they were back then. I'm no advocate for mindless robots that tow the company line, but I have seen some blatant disrespect and disregard for the rank structure. I'm sure you have too.
I can only guess that you are part of a municipal force if you have not had to work beyond the end of your tour. Having served in both small and large Detachments, there were sometimes days on end that you were forced to work, because there just wasn't anyone else. My longest stint was a 36 hour stretch on a murder investigation. I don't think that would have been possible without my military background (both on the work ethic side, and knowing I could operate that long).
I agree, but only to a point. I'll conceed that my military time did nothing to prepare me for investigative techniques and the like. However, the pace and long hours of Depot were a non-issue for me, as I was now accustomed to having to be up for days on end from the military. A lot of non-military subjects had a real hard time with the long days. Similarly, having respect for a rank structure was already a part of me. I'm sure with your 20 years as a Police Officer you could agree with me that members are not today what they were back then. I'm no advocate for mindless robots that tow the company line, but I have seen some blatant disrespect and disregard for the rank structure. I'm sure you have too.
I can only guess that you are part of a municipal force if you have not had to work beyond the end of your tour. Having served in both small and large Detachments, there were sometimes days on end that you were forced to work, because there just wasn't anyone else. My longest stint was a 36 hour stretch on a murder investigation. I don't think that would have been possible without my military background (both on the work ethic side, and knowing I could operate that long).
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Blackhorse7
I think you have hit the nail on the head, in the sense that it may be of more benefit depending on the particular police service chosen by the applicant.
I have been with TPS since 1985 and have worked worked in nine different units, both investigative and support. The longest stretch I have ever worked straight was 27 hours, but that happened only once. On average I would say a 10 hour day. Nowadays, paid overtime is supervised very closely and kept to a minimum, however it is not unusual to have Detectives and even some uniformed Constables earning in excess of $100,000 because of court, overtime, and paid duties.
I attended a course at RCMP Depot and had time to see some of the recruits do their training. I have also had the pleasure of working with RCMP - INSET, and RCMP - EDPS so I'm familiar with both forces SOP. The RCMP seem to have retained more of a para military style than TPS, so in that environment previous military service would definitely be a huge asset.
In Toronto, the flavour is more of a community interaction in a city that has high crime areas, multi million dollar homes, ethic drug gangs, quiet residential neighbourhoods and 24 hour a day pockets of human activity. The average officer may be called on to do routine stuff like investigate a motorvehicle accident where neither party speaks English or interact with people that are distrustful of any authority figures. A military deportment or bearing may be too stiff and is definitely not suited for doing any street level drug work. That said, I'm sure nothing happens in Toronto that doesn't happen anywhere else.
In the end, I am still of the opinion that 95% of police work is learned on the job, common sense, good communications skills, self motivation and an open mind are the ideal assets, added military experience would just be icing on the cake.
I think you have hit the nail on the head, in the sense that it may be of more benefit depending on the particular police service chosen by the applicant.
I have been with TPS since 1985 and have worked worked in nine different units, both investigative and support. The longest stretch I have ever worked straight was 27 hours, but that happened only once. On average I would say a 10 hour day. Nowadays, paid overtime is supervised very closely and kept to a minimum, however it is not unusual to have Detectives and even some uniformed Constables earning in excess of $100,000 because of court, overtime, and paid duties.
I attended a course at RCMP Depot and had time to see some of the recruits do their training. I have also had the pleasure of working with RCMP - INSET, and RCMP - EDPS so I'm familiar with both forces SOP. The RCMP seem to have retained more of a para military style than TPS, so in that environment previous military service would definitely be a huge asset.
In Toronto, the flavour is more of a community interaction in a city that has high crime areas, multi million dollar homes, ethic drug gangs, quiet residential neighbourhoods and 24 hour a day pockets of human activity. The average officer may be called on to do routine stuff like investigate a motorvehicle accident where neither party speaks English or interact with people that are distrustful of any authority figures. A military deportment or bearing may be too stiff and is definitely not suited for doing any street level drug work. That said, I'm sure nothing happens in Toronto that doesn't happen anywhere else.
In the end, I am still of the opinion that 95% of police work is learned on the job, common sense, good communications skills, self motivation and an open mind are the ideal assets, added military experience would just be icing on the cake.
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I am SO in the wrong job! :'(rregtc-etf said:
