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Capt. Robert Semrau Charged With Murder in Afghanistan

Regan was not murdered but he was shot.  I reference this incident as it illustrates that a person can unlawfully shoot another person without the end result being murder.  This is in contrast to Bulletmagnet's firm conclusion that "if he shot the insurgent he would be guilty of murder cut and dry."  For it to be murder, there are other elements that must exist and that must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Therefore, BulletMagnet is wrong in declaring that a not guilty verdict on the murder charge is proof that the shots never happened.  This faulty premise was the fundamental pillar of BulletMagnet's theory that 2Lt Semrau was a scapegoat (for what, I am not sure), and so I would suggest his whole theory is questionable.
 
And my point MCG

Is that they never proved he shot the man at all what they proved was that he said he would take care of it and then other heard 2 shots. For there the judge suppossed he shot the insurgent but they could not prove he caused the fatal shots to the insurgent.

My logic is simple If they cannot prove he shot the insurgent, which they did not they only proved he fired 2 rounds (inconclusively in my opinion) then he commited no crime. The CF had a PA nightmare when this came to light and again IN MY OPINION had to find him guilty of something to Cover their ass which they did.
 
What's done is done, could have turned out worse.

Good to hear that he wont be doing time.
 
BulletMagnet said:
And my point MCG Is that they never proved he shot the man ...

My logic is simple If they cannot prove he shot the insurgent, ...
They did prove it.  It had to have been proven because that was the specifics of the charge.

It is possible that you were not convinced by the information that was communicated second hand by the media based on a selection of what was actually presented to the court.  Despite that, the jury (which was present through the trial and privy to all the evidence presented) was convinced beyond reasonable doubt.

 
My thoughts, for the few pennies they're worth:

In my opinion there are two critical dilemma's that need to be examined (there's a third, but I'll leave that to later). The first dilemma was a moral one – could Semrau face himself in the future with greater ease if he left the Taliban to die on his own, or would it ease his own mind to assist the Taliban over that inevitable divide?

We need to set aside the argument of “was he dead/was he not dead” at the moment those shots were fired.  If the Taliban wasn't dead, why were the shots fired at all? The fact that second degree murder wasn't proved only established that there was no proof that the Taliban was alive at the time the shots were fired, this does not remove the detail that if the Taliban was known to be dead there was no reason to fire at all. For the purpose of discussion, let us assume the shots were fired because it was believed that action relieved him of pain before an inevitable death, because that has been used repeatedly to emphasize Semrau as a moral man deserving to be absolved of his alleged sins.

Regardless of the Taliban's actual state at the time of the shots being fired, it appears that Semrau chose the option he was more willing to live with, i.e., humane euthanasia rather than leaving a badly wounded man to die, a presumably unavoidable outcome. But he would also have known that this was also choosing an illegal act over a legal one.

Much has been made of Semrau taking that “humane” choice as “proof” of the moral and upstanding officer he has been consistently described to be, and of which there appears to be no dissenting opinions regarding his career to that point. So, in simplistic terms we are asked to believe that “the moral man made the humanitarian choice.”

The second dilemma is presented as a legalistic one – do you choose to not charge an allegedly moral man, for what is characterized as a humane act, for violating law even when the act may be clearly illegal if proven to be as alleged?; or do you let the legal system take its course to establish grounds to believe  a chargeable action occurred, meet the requirement to prove it in court, and accept the ruling of guilt or innocence in a legal framework?

Much of the discussion, here and in the media has focused on the first dilemma (Semrau's moral choice) and attempted to say that the second dilemma (the military chain of command's legal choice) should have, somehow, taken the first path of not charging him on the grounds of his moral choice.

The problem, which we see confused  in reporting of the Semrau case, is that the two described dilemmas are not co-dependent. Semrau's character is not an influencing factor in the chain of command's responsibility to act on allegations of wrong-doing. The chain of command responsibility to pursue the truth, and act upon it if it warrants legal action, even if only to ensure that names be cleared, would neither be greater nor less if Semrau had been less well thought of by those who now and have worked with him.

Semrau made a choice, and as he decided which choice of action he took would rest better in his heart, he would have known the possible outcome if the facts came to light, in full or in part, as they did.

When the alleged facts of the incident came to the attention of his chain of command, those officers had no choice. Their only course of action was to do what they did.  There was no “higher moral ground” for them to claim and tacitly or openly approve of the alleged action. They were committed by their own responsibilities to the Law of Armed Conflict, and to the expectations placed on Canadian service members to follow up those rumours and accept where that path led. The fact that that path might lead to the court martial of a good officer, highly respected by those who knew him by published accounts, was not a factor that could let them choose not to do their duty.

Much has been made of Semrau's “humanitarianism” but that is not the question placed before the court, nor it is the “crime” for which he was punished. The “crime” is the alleged firing of those shots, the state of the Taliban, how close he was to death, isn't the central issue. That whether the Taliban was dead or alive at the time the shots were fired may have been the point on which he has been acquitted of his more serious charges, but that does not diminish the fact that he chose to fire those rounds, allegedly to relieve suffering even if that was not proven in court, it appears to be openly accepted as the case in point of Semrau as the “moral man.”

The court's responsibility to rule on his guilt or innocence is based on the legality of that choice – not on whether an accused has an entitlement to absolution because he is alleged to be a moral man. His commendable character may influence severity of punishment, but not degree of guilt for proven charges.

And that third dilemma, it was also Semrau's. As a moral man, described as one taking the ethically tough choice, the “humanitarian” choice contravening law – why did he not admit to it at the time and accept the consequences of his actions immediately? He chose to leave the details unreported, waiting until rumours and hints accumulated to the point that the chain of command needed to at least clear the air, leading to the investigative actions that led to the current court martial.

If some of those reporting in the media, or posting in subsequent comments, wish to emphasize Semrau's mortality and character, why do they not ask why he did not stand up and report his actions at the time they occurred?

Where is the line between committing an illegal act, ostensibly one of mercy, and being defended on the grounds of your personal moral framework, and failing to stand up for your actions at that moment of moral crisis, instead waiting until the chain of command was forced to collect and collate allegations of wrongdoing? Surely choosing to fire those rounds was a tougher choice than choosing to leave exposure of the incident, if it ever arose, to the work of rumour and innuendo.

I would be more impressed if he had stood up that same day, admitted his actions, and then fought the case fully from a personal bastion of morality and the humanitarian choice. Perhaps he would have done so even after the court martial was set into motion, but as we know legal defences are built by lawyers, and they seldom include admission and defence on personal principles rather than forcing the prosecution to work with an incomplete picture to prove guilt, and hoping for the best.

I believe myself to be a moral man, and I can respect Semrau's alleged choice of humanitarian despatch over leaving a man to a lingering and inevitable death (assuming those are the true facts of the event). It was undoubtedly a tough choice to make and carry out. I will make no claims to how I might have acted under similar circumstances, because I cannot comprehend the intensity of the dilemma he must have contemplated. To say I would act one way or another would be facile armchair quarterbacking and meaningless in light of the fact that he actually had to face that choice.

At the same time I cannot but uphold the responsibility of his chain of command to act upon the information they had, to determine if there was grounds for further action, and to take those actions as they have evolved. All of those senior officers would remember days when obfuscation was the order of the day (chain of command responsibilities regarding the Canadian Airborne Regiment?), when failing to take responsibility was headline news (Gen Boyle (CDS) – claiming the fault of “lack of moral fibre and integrity” among his staff, Aug 1996). Regardless of what they thought of Semrau as a man (moral or otherwise as they knew him), of Semrau's alleged actions (yet to be determined), or of the possible outcomes of investigations and court martial – they knew that not acting upon it would be a greater wrong, potentially causing great harm to the Canadian Forces as an institution. Without a shred of doubt, if the chain of command had taken the course promoted by so many and not charging Semrau, and then alleged facts had leaked, the collective invective over the suspicion that a murder had been buried and tacitly approved would ensure equally, or even more virulent, attacks on the morality of the Canadian Forces command structure.  Those senior officers would have seen, during their careers, the results of such decisions being avoided and attempts to bury evidence of wrong-doing (where, oh where, is the Somalia War Diary?). They too had a tough moral choice, and they decided on maintaining the strength of the institution, to do otherwise would have been a failure, of command and of personal morality.


 
MCG

I cannot in good conscious continue on with this discourse. It would become unprofessional or I should say would be unprofessional of me to express the opinions I have about this trial and verdict.

 
Since we did not hear from Robert Semrau at the trial we have not heard the rest of the story.  That too me is a mystery - which I am sure was based on legal advice.  (Could we 'handle the truth' from his viewpoint?) Will it be in a book, a Fifth Estate Documentary or a MacLean's article - that remains to be seen and heard.  We have only heard what others say that he said at the time and afterwards.  Does he sleep more soundly since the trial is over or less so?  Would an appeal just drag it out longer?

The inevitably of the Taliban's death is not unlike Robert Latimer's and others' similar modern day dilemmas - which have divided the public (as Vern and others have stated).  The fact that this was on a foreign battlefield - does that change the principles - not for me.  I have not yet read the sentencing transcript (if it has been released - anyone?), just what the media has reported.  The precedents referenced by the Judge would be interesting.  Did BGen Thompson's statements foreshadow the judge's sentence - thereby making it a minimum acceptable to the chain of command?

Edit - to correct spelling and add info in ()
 
Simian Turner said:
Since we did not hear from Robert Semrau at the trial we have not heard the rest of the story.  That too me is a mystery - which I am sure was based on legal advice.  (Could we 'handle the truth' from his viewpoint?) Will it be in a book, a Fifth Estate Documentary or a MacLean's article - that remains to be seen and heard.  We have only heard what others say that he said at the time and afterwards.  Does he sleep more soundly since the trial is over or less so?  Would an appeal just drag it out longer?

The inevitably of the Taliban's death is not unlike Robert Latimer's and others' similar modern day dilemmas - which have divided the public (as Vern and others have stated).  The fact that this was on a foreign battlefield - does that change the principles - not for me.  I have not yet read the sentencing transcript (if it has been released - anyone?), just what the media has reported.  The precedents referenced by the Judge would be interesting.  Did BGen Thompson's statements foreshadow the judge's sentence - thereby making it a minimum acceptable to the chain of command?

Edit - to correct spelling and add info in ()

Here is the webpage relating to the Semrau court martial: http://www.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/dec/2010-eng.asp

Nothing on the CM findings.
 
Mike O'Leary: good post. This isn't a simple, cut-and-dried issue. It raises confusing and emotional questions about what is moral, what is ethical and what is legal, and about how far our actions as soldiers are answerable to the law. If the suffering and losses suffered by Capt Semrau are to mean anything for us, then we definitely need to make sure that this story is not forgotten, but studied in future by all leaders as a reminder of the challenges that combat poses. Maybe right now is too soon, but just as we now study the Somalia issues, as an Army we can't forget this story either.

Cheers
 
Michael, an extremely well thought out post, and it sums up just about everything that has been running through my brain housing group when I think of the incident.

Well done!
 
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/10/06/15609216.html

Tories should reinstate Semrau: experts

By ALTHIA RAJ, Parliamentary Bureau
Last Updated: October 6, 2010 8:05pm

OTTAWA — Some military experts are urging the Conservative government to overturn a court martial decision and reinstate former captain Robert Semrau in the Canadian Forces.
A military judge booted Semrau, 36, from the army and demoted him to second lieutenant Tuesday after a court martial found him guilty of disgraceful conduct for shooting a wounded Afghan insurgent.

The prosecution suggested Semrau had shot his unnamed victim as a mercy killing to relieve him of his suffering.
Semrau’s lawyers may appeal the verdict, but some believe he stands a better chance if he asks Defence Minister Peter MacKay to convince his cabinet colleagues to reverse the decision.

Warfare expert John Thompson said he’s “cautiously hopeful” the Conservatives will step in.
“A politician can listen to common sense and he can listen to public opinion — that’s part of the job,” he said.

Retired Col. Alain-Michel Pellerin of the Conference of Defence Associations Institute said he thinks MacKay should intervene.
“If the purpose of the court martial was to send a message to the troops that actions such as the one Semrau was involved in was not tolerated, then the message got through to the troops. At the end of the day, it wasn’t required to send a second message by kicking him out of the forces,” he said.

The department of national defence said it is only aware of one case in the last 25 years where cabinet reviewed a court martial decision, and in that case, cabinet chose not to intervene.
MacKay’s spokesman Jay Paxton said it would be “inappropriate for the minister to provide comment” because the parties might appeal.

The National Defence Act allows Semrau to appeal directly to MacKay without first going through the court martial.
Others believe Semrau would be better off forgetting about serving in the Forces again.
“He wouldn’t have a very attractive (military) career in front of him,” said Ret’d Maj.-Gen. Terry Liston.

Ret’d Maj.-Gen Lewis MacKenzie suggested Semrau would have a brighter future outside the Forces where “the majority of the population” has a great deal of sympathy and support for him.
“I think the Canadian public and businesses will look very favourably upon him if he wants to pursue another career,” MacKenzie said. “There is a real danger in appealing (in court) because ... for the charge that was made against him, the sentence was extremely modest,” he said.
 
Note that Bruce`s post comes from the Toronto Sun... just a note :)

Michael, excellent post.

To me, the issue is one of morality versus law. Then Capt Semrau made the decision that was moral but illegal - I speak in such affirmative words because I accept the findings of the court. Even if I had disagreed with them, which I don`t, not accepting the findings would be quite ridiculous unless one had more evidence as to what happened, in which case you should have stepped up to the plate and testify. One who didn`t must therefore accept the findings.

While 2Lt Semrau`s case is unique, it is not unique that one is confronted to a morality/legality dilemma. Euthanasia comes to my mind. So does triage in a hospital ER room: say a drunkard hit some little girl with his car. The girl will likely die, but the man can be saved. The code of conduct of doctors says the medical team should save the drunkard, because they have a chance. Not the moral choice, but the legal one. In the military context, other situations come to mind: taking out an airliner that`s been hijacked even though, from the pilot's standpoint, there would be no immediate danger (arguably a fictional scenario...for now). I could go on and on like that, but the bottom line is that, as a professional organization dealing with extreme cases of live-or-die morality, we have adopted a code of conduct to police our actions.

Now that code of conduct, and our ethics code, prescribe respect for a person`s dignity. If those shots were fired while the Taleb was alive, then it breaks the code; if he were dead, it also breaks the code as this would unnecessary abuse of the remains. In either case, he did not uphold the code. As a leader, how could he then have enforced the code?

Whether or not he killed the Taleb, he broke our code of conduct and is no longer fit to lead other in upholding that code through our military duties. As such, his punishment is fitting in that it underlines 1. the tarnished moral integrity of his leadership and 2. the loss of trust that the CoC had bestowed upon him to lead troops into battle, in accordance with Canadian Laws.

As many have said here, I am sure the 2Lt Semrau will sleep easy at night knowing he MIGHT have made the moral choice. But I believe being a leader, either as an NCO or an Officer, involves making the lawful choice, not the moral one, as distasteful as that might sometimes be. Otherwise, we are no longer obeying our civilian masters in Parliament and are just loose cannons (literally) on the battlefield.

My  :2c:
 
TimBit said:
Note that Bruce`s post comes from the Toronto Sun... just a note :)

Michael, excellent post.

To me, the issue is one of morality versus law. Then Capt Semrau made the decision that was moral but illegal - I speak in such affirmative words because I accept the findings of the court. Even if I had disagreed with them, which I don`t, not accepting the findings would be quite ridiculous unless one had more evidence as to what happened, in which case you should have stepped up to the plate and testify. One who didn`t must therefore accept the findings.

While 2Lt Semrau`s case is unique, it is not unique that one is confronted to a morality/legality dilemma. Euthanasia comes to my mind. So does triage in a hospital ER room: say a drunkard hit some little girl with his car. The girl will likely die, but the man can be saved. The code of conduct of doctors says the medical team should save the drunkard, because they have a chance. Not the moral choice, but the legal one. In the military context, other situations come to mind: taking out an airliner that`s been hijacked even though, from the pilot's standpoint, there would be no immediate danger (arguably a fictional scenario...for now). I could go on and on like that, but the bottom line is that, as a professional organization dealing with extreme cases of live-or-die morality, we have adopted a code of conduct to police our actions.

Now that code of conduct, and our ethics code, prescribe respect for a person`s dignity. If those shots were fired while the Taleb was alive, then it breaks the code; if he were dead, it also breaks the code as this would unnecessary abuse of the remains. In either case, he did not uphold the code. As a leader, how could he then have enforced the code?

Whether or not he killed the Taleb, he broke our code of conduct and is no longer fit to lead other in upholding that code through our military duties. As such, his punishment is fitting in that it underlines 1. the tarnished moral integrity of his leadership and 2. the loss of trust that the CoC had bestowed upon him to lead troops into battle, in accordance with Canadian Laws.

As many have said here, I am sure the 2Lt Semrau will sleep easy at night knowing he MIGHT have made the moral choice. But I believe being a leader, either as an NCO or an Officer, involves making the lawful choice, not the moral one, as distasteful as that might sometimes be. Otherwise, we are no longer obeying our civilian masters in Parliament and are just loose cannons (literally) on the battlefield.

My  :2c:

The problem, as I see it, is that you are trying impose civilian laws and civilian views of morality unto the battlefield. And it doesn't work. On the battlefield there may be occasions where all those nice laws and rules are going to be thrown-out with the bath water.

For example, you are a member of a small fighting patrol that carries out a raid against an enemy position deep in enemy territory. In a situation like this taking prisoners is not practical. You don't have enough men to watch them and taking them back would slow you down. You can't leave them behind because they might get loose and shot you in the back or if rescued, can provide info on patrol size, weapons carried and direction you departed in. In fact, in the mid-70's when I was with the 3 PPCLI when we were training for fighting patrols we would do the old SMEAC thing and when it came to prisoners the order, depending on type of fighting patrol, them orders may be "No prisoners." Other times, in the case of a snatch patrol, the mission was exactly the opposite - to take prisoners. Now you can say this is only training, but remember, we fight the way we train. Do we still train like that, I don't know, but it would be interesting to hear the views of present serving members and or recently retired.

Let me give another actual example from the failed American raid in Mogadishu, Somalia (aka Blackhawk Down). One of the American soldiers described a situation where he was under fire from a Somalia gunman who was hiding behind a woman. The woman was jumping around and the gunmen would jump out and fire a burst and then jump back behind the women. Finally, the only choice of the American had was to shoot the woman, and then shoot the gunman. According to the rules the American is guilty of murder, but what choice did he have? Wait and may be get a lucky shot at the gunman, but on the other hand he could get shot by the gunman. Difficult choice but I know if I was in that situation I would probably have done the same thing.

Now, you can say that these examples are different from the situation that Semrau found himself in, and you are right. The reason I mention them is to show that on the battlefield is not black and white like LCol Jesson or idiots like Drapeau or Scott Taylor would have us believe. In fact, there will be grey areas where our nice rules of morality do not apply.

Just my nickels worth.
 
TimBit you mentioned two names....now two more kittens have died....or maybe three.
 
Three, We need to add "Warfare expert John Thompson"  :rofl: to the list right after I finish pruging my breakfast. ::)

end tangent/rant
 
Retired AF Guy said:
The problem, as I see it, is that you are trying impose civilian laws and civilian views of morality unto the battlefield. And it doesn't work. On the battlefield there may be occasions where all those nice laws and rules are going to be thrown-out with the bath water.

:nod:
 
Retired AF Guy said:
The problem, as I see it, is that you are trying impose civilian laws and civilian views of morality unto the battlefield. And it doesn't work. On the battlefield there may be occasions where all those nice laws and rules are going to be thrown-out with the bath water.

This is an over-generalization. If you think there are cases where "all those nice laws" will be thrown out, would you excuse rape or looting, just because it takes place "on the battlefield"? Are you prepared to identify exactly what laws you think should be excused and under what conditions?  In my opinion, comparing the Semrau case to any situation where actions are taken that can be shown to be essential to mission execution and security is to present a red herring argument.

 
Personally, I symphasize with Semrau because I believe assisted-suicide is okay and he was stuck between a rock and a boulder in facing his own moral beliefs vs the beliefs of the nation that he has to represent and uphold.

And as much as I would like that the law had some exception for assisted-suicide, it doesn't. So, to me, Capt Semrau killing a man when he knew he was not supposed to is no different than being legally ordered to kill somebody and not following through on that order because you'll throw your guts up with guilt afterwards.

I haven't been put in either situation of course, but in both scenarios, personal feelings must be put aside for professional reasons...

Would like to know if I'm right out of 'er or not. Cheers.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
In fact, there will be grey areas where our nice rules of morality do not apply.

Just my nickels worth.
Agreed; however, firing two rounds into an unarmed enemy still contravenes the Laws of Armed Conflict.  This is black and white legally.
 
Michael O'Leary said:
This is an over-generalization. If you think there are cases where "all those nice laws" will be thrown out, would you excuse rape or looting, just because it takes place "on the battlefield"? Are you prepared to identify exactly what laws you think should be excused and under what conditions?  In my opinion, comparing the Semrau case to any situation where actions are taken that can be shown to be essential to mission execution and security is to present a red herring argument.

May be it is an over-generalization and no I would not excuse rape or looting. You say that the examples I gave would be excused because they are essential to mission execution and security. Thats not the impression I'm getting from some of the postings here in this thread. Its diffidently not the feeling I get from comments by LCol Jesson, Drapeau, Taylor, et al. According to them there are no exceptions, the rules are written in stone and you shall not deviate from them no matter what and there are no exceptions. Mission security be damned.

Again, its just my impression.
 
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