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Capt. Robert Semrau Charged With Murder in Afghanistan

I think the media would blow up if he got re-enrolled.

Not that I don't think he shouldn't get back in. In fact, I would hope he would be allowed back in.
 
I suspect......that any speculation on media or government reaction to his re-enrolling may be a tad premature  ;)
 
Baden  Guy said:
OK so 2nd Lt. Semrau enters a Recruiting centre and says he wants to join as an Infantry officer.
What are his realistic chances of the military taking the political risk on enrolling him?
Or should Mr.Semreau be looking at a civy job? Again would he be able to get a  public service job?
I don't think he will get much satisfaction if his lawyer tries the appeal route.

Yes ....guess I was just thinking out loud.  :)
 
Punishment handed down, life should go on in a fair world.  But this one isn't.  The good Captain will be treated like kryptonite dipped in toxic waste and rolled in depleted uranium dust.  The fallout over his personal life will long outlast the severity of the crime, or the punishment.  Damn shame.
 
Kat Stevens said:
Punishment handed down, life should go on in a fair world.  But this one isn't.  The good Captain will be treated like kryptonite dipped in toxic waste and rolled in depleted uranium dust.  The fallout over his personal life will long outlast the severity of the crime, or the punishment.  Damn shame.

+1

From everything good and bad I've heard, I would work with the Good Captain any day of the week.

for what it's worth in my eyes his integrity counts for a lot... He never tried to cover up what he did. And he felt he acted honorably... I can respect that.
 
Cleaned.

Proudnewfoundlanders's tangent is here, at least until I or another staff member decide it can go to the trash.


Milnet.ca Staff
 
This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, is offered without comment:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/semraus-sentence-criticized-for-ambiguous-message/article1743222/
Semrau’s sentence criticized for ‘ambiguous’ message

STEVEN CHASE

GATINEAU, QUE.— From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Oct. 05, 2010

Robert Semrau’s lawyer calls him a warrior who still longs to serve his country but the bullets the army captain fired into an unarmed Taliban fighter two years ago have cut short his soldiering career and left a black mark on Canada’s record in Afghanistan.

A Forces judge Tuesday demoted Captain Semrau to Second Lieutenant and ruled he should be dismissed in a sentence that is dividing the military community.

The head of Canada’s army welcomed the decision but a prominent military historian warned the sentence was too light and sends an “ambiguous” message to rank-and-file troops about such conduct.

Capt. Semrau is believed to be the first Canadian soldier to be sentenced for a battlefield shooting. The man he shot in October of 2008 was a severely wounded insurgent and witnesses at trial characterized what happened as a “mercy killing.”

The judge, Lieutenant-Colonel Jean-Guy Perron, told the 36-year-old captain that he had failed in his role as a military leader and as an “ambassador of Canadian values.” The Forces code of conduct says soldiers must offer aid to wounded enemies that do not pose a threat.

“How can we expect our soldiers to follow the laws of war if their officers do not? How can we expect the Afghan National Army to follow the laws of war if the officers mentoring them do not?” Lt.-Col. Perron said.

Capt. Semrau managed to avoid jail time or the more severe sentence of “dismissal with disgrace.”

Testimony heard during trial suggested the close-range “double-tap” shooting was an effort to end the suffering of a gravely injured man. But Capt. Semrau was acquitted of second-degree murder and attempted murder in July after the prosecution, which could not produce a body from the war zone, failed to substantiate either charge. He was instead found guilty this summer of shooting the insurgent – and convicted of disgraceful conduct under the National Defence Act.

David Bercuson, historian and director of the University of Calgary’s Centre for Military and Strategic Studies, said the sentence should have been tougher to “draw firm lines” between right and wrong.

“It’s about saying: ‘These are the standards we hold you to … even if there was in your mind mitigating circumstance. [And] We don’t agree that shooting even a grievously wounded combatant is acceptable.’ Period. Full stop.”

The head of the Canadian army however welcomed the sentence Tuesday “This was a serious and complex matter and it was dealt with accordingly,” Lieutenant-General Peter Devlin, Canadian Forces Chief of Land Staff, said in a statement.

But Capt. Semrau’s sentence angers rank-and-file soldiers and supporters, who argue he should not have been forced to stand trial for decisions made in a combat zone.

“I was a military officer for 35 years and hope that I would have had the courage to do the very same thing,” a supporter calling himself Jock Williams posted on a Facebook page that has attracted more than 8,870 members. “I would serve with Capt. Semrau in a heartbeat if given the chance.”

During the trial, one of Capt. Semrau's subordinates testified his leader told him the shooting was a “mercy kill” because it was the “humane thing to do.” Capt. Semrau never took the stand himself.

Mercy killing is not a defence in Canadian law.

“You may have been motivated by the honest belief you were doing the right thing. Nonetheless, you committed a serious breach of discipline,” Lt.-Col. Perron said.

Capt. Semrau declined to speak to reporters Tuesday.

His defence lawyer, Captain David Hodson, said the soldier is weighing whether to appeal the court's decisions. There’s a 30-day period in which to do so.

The lawyer said Capt. Semrau was “very disappointed” by the sentence, which could remove him from the military in as little as 30 days.

“He's a warrior. He would love to be serving the Canadian Forces and serving his country,” Capt. Hodson said.

“He thanks the Canadian public for all the support he's been given throughout the process. We still have troops overseas in harm's way and he only asks that you direct your support to those troops that are in harm's way throughout the world.”

Opinions, from a wide range of sources, continue to vary.
 
quote from article
"But Capt. Semrau’s sentence angers rank-and-file soldiers and supporters, who argue he should not have been forced to stand trial for decisions made in a combat zone."

What ?????
 
Joe Warmington's view.    I do agree with one thing and that's this would not have made it past the first 5 minutes in a real court.


http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/10/05/15594531.html
News Columnists / Joe Warmington


Last Updated: October 5, 2010 8:04pm


Capt. Robert Semrau should get a medal and then be sent back to Afghanistan to kill as many of those Taliban bastards as possible.

Or did Canada suddenly forget it’s in a war with those murderous scumbags who have savagely killed 152 of our soldiers?

What kind of country throws a trained killer under the bus for killing the very enemy that slayed so many of our people? The Taliban, who don’t have such strict guidelines to adhere to when blowing up Canadians, must be laughing in their caves.

Semrau was found guilty of disgraceful conduct in a bizarre, second-guessing case and booted from the military but the real disgrace is that he was ever charged in the first place. There was never a body located which means this should have been thrown out at first court date.

But they were hellbent to nail him and still are despite the fact he was acquitted of murder. How can someone be disgraceful when they are found not guilty of the alleged disgrace?
Meanwhile, if this country is not going to back our soldiers up 100% in war is it really worth it to let one more young person be killed in Afghanistan?

Why stay one more day? Why would our troops risk their lives knowing someone can pull out the guidelines on them, giving the Taliban the benefit of the doubt?
We don’t want our warriors worrying about a court martial when confronting this vicious enemy. But that’s what this firing of Semrau accomplishes.

“You have made a decision that will cast a shadow on you for the rest of your life,” Military Judge Jean-Guy Perron told Semrau in announcing the 36-year-old is being expelled from the military.

So much easier to judge rules of engagement decisions behind that safe bench. It’s not quite the same work environment in Afghanistan.
Perron also said “the shooting ... was fundamentally contrary to our values” when he knows very well that Semrau was not convicted of shooting anybody.

Why is military defence lawyer Maj. Steve Turner standing for this? Afraid of the consequences of going against the brass? Civilian defence counsels like Eddie Greenspan, John Rosen or Marie Henin would have had Semrau out of this in 10 minutes.

Meanwhile everybody knows you can’t apply logic in comfy Ottawa to leading a team of Afghan soldiers into a lethal war zone. If the military wasn’t so worried about what the politically-correct coward-crowd thinks, it would give Semrau the same second chance that everybody else who goes through our legal system seems to get.

No Canadian who put his life on the line for this country should be discarded in this way and I ask the always fair Chief of Defence Gen. Walter J. Natynczyk to ensure fairness is administered here because he knows complicated things happen every day in Afghanistan.

This was in the heat of battle and as they wonder if this could ever happen to them, you better believe your troops are watching. And so are the Taliban who get the message: “You can kill us but if we want to kill you, we better call Judge Jean-Guy Perron first to make sure it’s okay.”

Now that they are done throwing the book at one of our boys for doing the job they sent him in to do, perhaps this short-on-combat experience military judge can go over in Semrau’s place to a deadly hell hole where the stupid rule book does not apply in dealing with people who would take an axe to your head.
 
57Chevy said:
quote from article
"But Capt. Semrau’s sentence angers rank-and-file soldiers and supporters, who argue he should not have been forced to stand trial for decisions made in a combat zone."

What ?????

If I've ever seen any issue that "rank-and-file" types don't really agree on, it's this - many a Mess argument has been the result of discussions of this, and generally at the end of the day I think most people realize that the matter couldn't be ignored.
 
Although great for mess discussion, the Law of Armed Conflict is taught, published, enforced and clear:

435. WOUNDED, SICK AND SHIPWRECKED
1. All the wounded, sick and shipwrecked, to whichever party they belong, shall be respected and protected and shall not be attacked.

G l Art 12 (1); Gll Art 12 (1); AP l Arts 10 (1) & 41 (1) & (2) (c); AP ll Art 7 (1)

2. The “wounded” and “sick” mean persons, whether military or civilian who, because of trauma,
disease or other physical or mental disorder or disability, are in need of medical assistance or care. The
wounded and sick are protected so long as they refrain from any act of hostility.

http://www.cfd-cdf.forces.gc.ca/websites/Resources/dgfda/Pubs/CF%20Joint%20Doctrine%20Publications/CF%20Joint%20Doctrine%20-%20B-GJ-005-104%20FP-021%20-%20LOAC%20-%20EN%20(13%20Aug%2001).pdf
 
That's my stance on the matter - moral ambiguity and the reality that I cannot say I wouldn't have felt it right to do the same thing were I in his shoes, LOAC is absolutely, unequivocably clear.  They could offer no assistance but he had no right to fire the shots he did - the argument centres on whether that, in the aggregate, was the "right thing to do" from a compassionate/ethical/moral stance.

I think the sentence, which I'm sure was a struggle to determine, serves justice reasonably well.  It makes the legal position of the CF clear and hopefully acts as a reasonable deterrent - but I'm sure this conversation will go on for a very long time.
 
I guess the real issue for me all along has been why medical care (although impossible to save his life in this case) was decided or 'ordered' not to be provided - since it is clear that it would fall under respect.
 
Grimaldus said:
No body was found.
What happened to no victim no crime?

Don't even start that bull crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_conviction_without_a_body
 
Going back to what I said earlier on in the thread........

57Chevy said:
Exactly
So, he could get less than that.
"going on charge" seemed to and somehow always seems to be justified by
"against the good order and discipline..etc".
So........Is the lesser charge related to or somehow weighed by the gravity of the alledged charges
of which he was found not guilty? Thus somehow eyeing the high end of punishment (dismissal) or
for that matter (imprisonment). Or more toward the extreme low end..... reprimand......fine, or less?

I find that the punishment shows a fine example of compassion by the board due to the fact that he  was convicted of disgraceful conduct under the National Defence Act.
It could have turned out worse.

 
KingofKeys said:
I got a question. Why did Semrau get kicked out from the Canadian Forces  AND receive a reduction in rank? What role does the reduction in rank play here?
It takes away a status.  Rank on release is often still referenced for status when one is out - consider all the former military personnel that use thier rank on release to leverage credibility in the media or other circles.

In fact, to be technically correct, the news media should no longer be refering to "Capt Semrau" as the man they wish to identify is "2Lt Semrau" (and will remain such for the handfull of days he has left to serve in uniform).  That is fairly significant rebuke despite having negligable actual career impact.

Kat Stevens said:
Punishment handed down, life should go on in a fair world.  But this one isn't.  The good Captain will be treated like kryptonite dipped in toxic waste and rolled in depleted uranium dust.  The fallout over his personal life will long outlast the severity of the crime, or the punishment.  Damn shame.
I suspect there will be groups of people who will pre-judge him as either hero or villain.  I suspect (and hope), the majority of people will be prepared to at least give him the benefit of the doubt.  I also suspect that, once all court procedings are permanently behind him, the book offers will be coming out of the woodwork. 
 
I am neither a CF Member or a legal expert so take or leave this outside opinion as you wish.

What Capt. Semrau did was contrary to the letter of the law.  Nothing that I've heard on this incident leads me to believe that he in any way acted out of hatred or malice in his actions but rather out of human compassion.  You may feel free to disagree with his decision but I haven't seen anyone make a serious argument about his apparent intent (my conjecture only never having actually spoken to any of the individuals involved).

The law is in place for an important reason.  We set high standards for our society to set ourselves apart from those we oppose.  Combat may be the most difficult place to enforce those high standards and it is not without potential risk that we do so.  However, meeting those standards when it is truly difficult to do so is the true test of our society.  It's easy to do the right thing when doing so comes at no risk.  On occasion both our society as a whole as well as individuals within that society will have a price to pay for meeting (or at least attempting to meet) those standards.  In this case it can be argued that Capt. Semrau has paid this price on our behalf.

I personally feel that the court has struck a fairly reasonable balance between showing that our high standards really count (by publicly punishing Capt. Semrau and clearly stating to all that his behaviour in unacceptable) while not imposing overly harsh punishment (jail time, etc.) on an individual that did not act out of malice.

It may be a case where nobody ends up truly satisfied with the result (either too harsh or too lenient) but maybe that in itself is a sign that the right balance has been found.

Glenn

 
But Capt. Semrau’s sentence angers rank-and-file soldiers and supporters, who argue he should not have been forced to stand trial for decisions made in a combat zone.

Really? So on what basis would we maintain discipline in a force engaged in combat operations? Why bother having ROE, or Laws of Armed Conflict, or the Geneva Convention, or QR&Os? If the purpose of having military discipline is to make a force ready for combat, and to ensure its effectiveness once it enters combat, then why would we not enforce that discipline when we're actually in combat? What (if anything...) would distinguish us from an armed rabble or a gang of Taleban?

This is a very tragic story. At least one life (perhaps more if we consider his family...) has been badly smashed. There is divisiveness within the Army as people argue for or against. A very good and otherwise honourable young man made a bad decision. He broke the law, albeit with what he probably thought were the best of intentions.  He answered for it, under the same system that as a commissioned officer he voluntarily swore to obey, uphold and enforce, just as I'm sure he knew that he would have to. He did not go to prison, thankfully, but the message is sent. To let this act, or even the perception of the act, go unpunished would have made a mockery of having any laws, any rules or any codes of conduct at all.

What scares me in all this is not that an officer was punished for making a decision. Thousands of officers will go on making thousands of decisions, some good, some bad, but all accountable if our system really works. What scares me is some people who apparently think that the real message is "...just don't get caught". Because the corollary of that line of thinking is "..just keep your mouth shut, especially if you're a junior rank..." I thought that our Army had learnt this lesson once already, years ago, in a very painful, drawn-out and damaging way. One of the things that sad period revealed is that we had developed a very unhealthy tolerance of serious wrong doing and indiscipline in some parts of the Army, including amongst officers. Do you want to go through all that again? Because that's where we go if we start just ignoring this kind of act.

To those who say "..this kind of thing always happens, so why bother...?", I say that murder, rape, and all sorts of other bad things happen all the time. Does that mean we stop having laws, or stop trying to do something about those acts?

Cheers

Edit to fix quote
 
What scares me in all this is not that an officer was punished for making a decision. Thousands of officers will go on making thousands of decisions, some good, some bad, but all accountable if our system really works. What scares me is some people who apparently think that the real message is "...just don't get caught". Because the corollary of that line of thinking is "..just keep your mouth shut, especially if you're a junior rank..." I thought that our Army had learnt this lesson once already, years ago, in a very painful, drawn-out and damaging way. One of the things that sad period revealed is that we had developed a very unhealthy tolerance of serious wrong doing and indiscipline in some parts of the Army, including amongst officers. Do you want to go through all that again? Because that's where we go if we start just ignoring this kind of act.

To those who say "..this kind of thing always happens, so why bother...?", I say that murder, rape, and all sorts of other bad things happen all the time. Does that mean we stop having laws, or stop trying to do something about those acts?

Hear hear!  :salute:
 
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