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Capt. Robert Semrau Charged With Murder in Afghanistan

This trial is making me ill.

Okay, the good Capt. did something that he should not have done, but in all honestly most of us I think would have done the same thing.

I mean, leaving a wounded combatant to die, is that the sort of thing we should be doing?

Maybe so is the message I have gotten from the prosecution.

 
 
KevinB said:
This trial is making me ill.

Okay, the good Capt. did something that he should not have done, but in all honestly most of us I think would have done the same thing.

I mean, leaving a wounded combatant to die, is that the sort of thing we should be doing?

Maybe so is the message I have gotten from the prosecution.


+1


This is all sorts or Retarded.....  I'm loosing the little faith I have left in the Higher levels of DND at this point....
 
Tommy said:
+1


This is all sorts or Retarded.....  I'm loosing the little faith I have left in the Higher levels of DND at this point....


The only thing to do when confronted with an injured combatant is to administer or have administered first aid. Putting the guy out of his misery is not the way to go. Lots of factors will guide your decision and the most important being The Law of Armed Conflict. and all its statutes.
 
I suspect the judge is not working around leave plans.  Rather, he'll be spending weeks reviewing case law looking for anything remotely similar.  Reviewing the precedents cited by both lawyers in their presentations.  Reviewing the transcript t oensure his memroy is fresh and he is certain of the details.

I'd much rather see a judge take his time to reflect and arrive at a just sentence to meet the four considerations as opposed to a judge rattling of a sentence witout thought.

 
downhillslide said:
The only thing to do when confronted with an injured combatant is to administer or have administered first aid. Putting the guy out of his misery is not the way to go. Lots of factors will guide your decision and the most important being The Law of Armed Conflict. and all its statutes.

I am most inclined to agree. I have heard somewhere and always figured that an injured soldier is a greater logistical burden than a dead one.
 
DOWNHILLSLIDE, "The only thing to do when confronted with an injured combatant is to administer or have administered first aid. Putting the guy out of his misery is not the way to go. Lots of factors will guide your decision and the most important being The Law of Armed Conflict. and all its statutes."

Great, you passed your OPME on Mil Law.

I only hope the TB would do the same to me if they found me in similar condition, but I doubt it.  You would hope the same too, but somehow I doubt you've ever been "outside the wire."

I hope Capt Semrau gets a modest sentence.  As for the member of his team that felt the need to turn on his boss, well, I guess you know.

 
bick said:
DOWNHILLSLIDE, "The only thing to do when confronted with an injured combatant is to administer or have administered first aid. Putting the guy out of his misery is not the way to go. Lots of factors will guide your decision and the most important being The Law of Armed Conflict. and all its statutes."

Great, you passed your OPME on Mil Law.

I only hope the TB would do the same to me if they found me in similar condition, but I doubt it.  You would hope the same too, but somehow I doubt you've ever been "outside the wire."

I hope Capt Semrau gets a modest sentence.  As for the member of his team that felt the need to turn on his boss, well, I guess you know.

What does inside our outside of the wire have to do with compassion, and understanding the rules of war??  You lost me there.

Let's please not go down that route, and keep this thread in context

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff
 
dapaterson said:
I suspect the judge is not working around leave plans.  Rather, he'll be spending weeks reviewing case law looking for anything remotely similar.  Reviewing the precedents cited by both lawyers in their presentations.  Reviewing the transcript to ensure his memory is fresh and he is certain of the details.

I'd much rather see a judge take his time to reflect and arrive at a just sentence to meet the four considerations as opposed to a judge rattling of a sentence without thought.

Fixed a few typos for your dap - hopefully the judge is crossing his ts and dotting his is. 

Or perhaps the judge wants to give the Capt one last summer with his family on military pay before locking him away for a while.
 
Thanks for the catches.

I don't think the judge has made up his mind - this is a case without precedent in Canada.  He'll be breaking new ground, and knows that whatever he decides there will be an appeal, so even if he comes out with a custodial sentence Capt Semrau will be out until the CMAC rules.


Were I a betting man, I'd bet that we'll see a sentence of imprisonment for two years less a day that is suspended.  That would be in between the proposals of the defence and prosecution; it would mean Capt Semrau could continue serving (assuming he keeps his nose clean for that two year period), but would be a greater punishment than the defence request, and would be more or less in line with the prosecution, only lacking the dismissal with disgrace.

The hierarchy of punishments puts two years less a day just below dismissal with disgrace, so such a punishment would preempt an appeal by the prosecution; keeping Capt Semrau out of jail and not demoted might also keep the defence from appealing.


The particulars of the case are such that specific deterrence, rehab and reform are secondary considerations - the main issues the sentence must address are general deterrence ("No one else should do this") and retribution "You should not have done this").  A suspended custodial sentence would largely address those concerns - there has been no evidence presented about other similar incidents, so general deterrence is of lesser importance, so the only remaining consideration is retribution (I prefer the term condemnation).  A suspended sentence of incarceration addresses that, and leaves both sides unwilling to appeal - the prosecution, since it could be reduced on appeal, and the defence because it is suspended and does not include dismissal.


There is still the question of what (if any) administrative action may be taken following the trial, but that is a whole other can of worms.
 
Simian Turner said:
Or perhaps the judge wants to give the Capt one last summer with his family on military pay before locking him away for a while.

I sincerely hope that is not the case.  :yellow:
 
VERY well thought out options.  :nod:

However...
dapaterson said:
There is still the question of what ...............
You're thinking of options from a purely legal and precedent perspective.

Sadly, the recurring issue seems to be, "what will the media commentators' say" -- which, of course, drives what the military hierarchy says (if one believes the prosecutor's closing statement).

Offering up rational scales of punishment here is fine, but how will those who promulgate the CBC "viewers' comments" blogs (which seems overwhelmingly to drive elected officials' thinking) view a suspended Club Ed [2 years minus 1 day] sentence?

 
Is a suspended sentence really much of a general deterrence? Especially if this is all that he receives? I may sound like a someone commenting on the CBC site now, but saying to the rank and file that "This is wrong, don't do it, or you might go to jail if you can't keep out of trouble for 2 years less a day?" isn't really going to stop someone else who would do it in the first place  from doing it.

As for actual punishment, a demotion to LT with a severe reprimand on his record ends his career. It does allow him to tread water until he reaches his twenty for a pension and then fade away quietly. A suspended sentence could have little impact in the long term, as long as no career ending administrative action is taken.

 
captloadie said:
Is a suspended sentence really much of a general deterrence? Especially if this is all that he receives? I may sound like a someone commenting on the CBC site now, but saying to the rank and file that "This is wrong, don't do it, or you might go to jail if you can't keep out of trouble for 2 years less a day?" isn't really going to stop someone else who would do it in the first place  from doing it.

You have hit the nail on the head.  It is the same argument against Capital Punishment for example.  In that regardless of the law and punishment most murders will be committed in spite of.  Those individuals who would lean towards the good Capt's actions would do so anyways.  Some would have rendered first aid and some others like myself would have walked on and left the bastard alone.  So whatever punishment is metted out on the day whether to sacrifice him on the altar of political correctness or to make an example or perhaps a statement will have no bearing on my attitude what so ever were I to be faced with the dilemma.
 
A wise and sensible verdict;
Jury walked a thin line between the law and real life in the Semrau shooting case

Catherine Ford
Montreal Gazette
28 July 2010

The verdict of "guilty of disgraceful conduct" handed down to Canadian army Captain Robert Semrau won't please many people on either side of the accusations -but it is a thoughtful walk on the narrow path of real life.

In his court martial last week, Semrau was found not guilty of second-degree murder and attempted murder in the 2008 shooting of an unarmed and severely wounded Afghan insurgent.

This is believed to be the first time a Canadian soldier has been prosecuted for a death on the battlefield.

Using logic that Solomon would have condoned, a military panel found the captain guilty of disgraceful conduct. That verdict carries a maximum penalty of five years in jail and also likely marks the end of the officer's reportedly stellar career. The sentencing hearing is this week. What it does not carry is the more severe penalty of life imprisonment, at least 10 years without parole, that would have been mandatory had he been convicted of murder.

Nobody wins in this case, with the possible exception of the jury system, which so often comes to the correct legal decision without benefit of law degrees or experience on the bench. Yet the "losing" side is heavily weighted: The reputation of the Canadian armed forces; the trust citizens place in the men and women who fight our battles for us and are held in high esteem; the conventions that attempt to set out how armed combatants must act in the face of the enemy, and even how the enemy are treated when in Canadian hands.

None of us not at the sharp end can be confident in our own reactions were we to march a couple of miles in any soldier's boots. But we have a right to expect from our armed forces "conduct becoming" -that those men and women serving under the Maple Leaf will be the "good guys."

Unlike television, where so often the good guys and the bad guys are easily identifiable, in real life sometimes the good ones are bad. And, less often, the bad ones are good. It's the kind of reality -and the kind of thinking -that leads us to exclaim that "he" couldn't have done such an awful thing; that "she" couldn't be capable of heinous acts. The act and the person involved are irrelevant: It is us, the onlooker, the neighbour, the best friend who so desperately want to believe anyone to whom we are close cannot be capable of the worst sort of crime. After all, if someone we love is guilty, does that not reflect on us?

This is one of the reasons that when a crime is committed, the neighbours are always dumbfounded that it could have happened right next door. Most of us live in a fantasy world, an idyllic world of wishful thinking -a world where no one we like is capable of bad acts. Thinking that way keeps us safe -or at least believing we are safe -and sleeping soundly in our own beds.

Understandably, Semrau's family is unhappy he was found guilty of anything. Some of the public -who don't understand war and its implications and complications -curiously think the verdict was a cover-up. As for me, I believe it appropriate and amazingly even-handed.

The facts of the matter seem simple: Witnesses report Semrau admitted firing two rounds into an unarmed and severely wounded insurgent. It was allegedly an act of mercy. But under Canadian law, showing mercy is not a defence of murder. One need only remember Robert Latimer's killing of his severely disabled 12-year-old daughter. He did it, he said, to release her from her suffering, to mercifully end her life.

Does anyone believe Robert Latimer was a cold-hearted killer? Yet the courts eventually found him guilty of second-degree murder, and while the judge attempted to circumvent the mandatory minimum sentence because of extraordinary circumstances, the Crown appealed, and Latimer received a life sentence with no chance of parole for 10 years. It was the possibility of a similar fate and mandatory sentence that faced Semrau.

It might seem curious to have the juxtaposition of a not-guilty-of-murder verdict with a guilty-of-disgraceful-conduct conviction for the same acts, but that is the thin line the jury successfully walked.

The Canadian government has essentially taken away the latitude courts should have in sentencing when extenuating circumstances are present.

This is how mandatory minimum sentences deliver not justice, but vengeance. And while it might be merely supposition that a jury was unwilling to find Semrau guilty of second-degree murder because it carries a mandatory minimum of 10 years in jail, perhaps there was compelling evidence that Semrau acted, not out of hate or malice, but out of mercy toward another "soldier" lying dying on the field of battle.

None of us knows what went on in Semrau's mind when he put a combat soldier out of his misery. At the very least, he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

And here is where the jury decision, as bizarre as it sounds on the surface -not guilty of murder, but guilty of "disgraceful conduct" because of the death -walks that fine line of real life.
 
I think Catherine Ford's article is a steaming pile.

 
 
A soldier's code and the law
Times Colonist
Victoria, BC
28 July 2010

Law and morality are supposed to coincide. What's legally right should also be ethically proper. But what happens when the two diverge? On a battlefield in Afghanistan, that dilemma confronted Canadian Forces Capt. Robert Semrau.

While leading his patrol out of a firefight, Semrau came upon a wounded Taliban fighter. The man's legs had been severed by a hail of bullets from an Apache helicopter. His stomach was ripped open. He was not moving.

Semrau fired two shots into the man. There was no hope of medical treatment and his wounds were fatal. He might already have been dead.

Although there are conflicting accounts, it appears Semrau told his men he could not leave the injured fighter in such a condition. He called the shooting a "mercy kill" and reportedly said that "if anything came of it, he would wear it."

Semrau was raised in a deeply religious family. He believed his actions were morally justified, perhaps even obligatory. There is a soldier's code that you do not leave a hopelessly injured man to die in agony.

But the law says something different. Both the Geneva Convention and the Canadian Criminal Code require that "all injured and sick shall be collected and cared for."

Of course, Semrau had no means of caring for his prisoner. Nevertheless, the law makes no exceptions and Semrau was charged with disgraceful conduct and murder on the battlefield. Two weeks ago he was acquitted of the murder charge by an army court.

But he was convicted on the less serious charge of disgraceful conduct. A military panel will announce his sentence on Sept. 9. It could range from a dishonourable discharge to five years in prison. The former senior commander in Kandahar, Brig.-Gen Denis Thompson, has urged the panel to dismiss Semrau from the army.

There is no good outcome here. If Semrau is treated leniently, it might send the message Canada condones illegal conduct.

Our mission in Afghanistan is supposed to be freeing its people from the grip of lawlessness and terror. It is essential Canadian soldiers demonstrate the values we are fighting for. Otherwise we are just another in a long line of foreign occupiers adding to that country's woes.

But a prison sentence would send a different kind of message. And not a favourable one, either.

It would tell our soldiers that actions on the battlefield will be judged by the laws of civilian conduct.

Yet combat has its own realities. Not least that life-and-death decisions must be made in seconds, often in hostile environments.

As a guiding principle, kill or be killed has no place in civilized society. But that is what battle demands.

Soldiers cannot be asked to consult a lawyer in a war zone. Especially when their enemy employs tactics like roadside bombs, wears no uniform and hides among civilians.

Semrau has a flawless record of military service. He is, by all accounts, a decent and courageous man who did what he thought was right in a moment of crisis.

His conviction for disgraceful conduct has already limited his future options. If the matter rested in our hands, we would say enough is enough.

Let him go home to his family and make a new start. We surely owe him that much.
 
Semrau verdict exposes tragically flawed law
Dan Gardner
The Ottawa Citizen
30 July 2010

The situation Captain Robert Semrau encountered was a philosopher's dream and a soldier's nightmare.

In hostile territory, what was left of an enemy combatant lay on the ground. His body had been dismembered, mangled, and shredded by an attack helicopter's guns. But still, he wasn't dead. He was alive but anyone could see he was dying, slowly, in agony. He could not be saved, even if Semrau could get him quickly to a field hospital, which he could not.

So Semrau had a choice. He could either obey Canadian law and military regulation and let this man suffer and, eventually, die. Or he could end his pain with a bullet.

Philosophers invent scenarios like this to confront people with moral dilemmas. The idea is to create a set of circumstances in which there are only two options. Both are awful. Which do you choose?

People usually try to squirm out. They invent facts ("maybe there's a bystander who can do it instead of me") or they deny facts ("maybe the child won't drown") --anything to give themselves a third choice that dodges the moral dilemma. In a phrase, they look for an easy out. But the scenarios of philosophers are carefully constructed so that anyone who honestly acknowledges the facts must confront the dilemma. There are no easy outs.

This is what Semrau faced. Only two choices. Both awful. Will you act or not? It was an ideal classroom exercise. But Semrau wasn't in a classroom.

At his court martial, Semrau was found not guilty of murder -- but guilty of "behaving in a disgraceful manner." As a member of the prosecution explained, "they've found him guilty of shooting an unarmed, wounded person." But since there was reasonable doubt about whether the man died of his existing wounds or Semrau's bullets, Semrau was acquitted of the murder charge.

That much makes legal sense. But if the court martial found, as a matter of fact, that Semrau shot the prisoner with intent to kill, but the prisoner may or may not have died of his existing wounds, it would certainly be attempted murder. And yet Semrau was acquitted of precisely that charge. Why? That would be the correct conclusion if the court felt there was reasonable doubt that he shot the prisoner. But if that were the case, there would be no grounds for convicting him of "behaving in a disgraceful manner."

The court's judgment is absurd. It is nonsense. And it is understandable.

The law is clear. Soldiers are not permitted to shoot unarmed prisoners under any circumstances and the unlawful killing of another person, with intent to kill, is murder. And so, according to the facts as they seem to have been accepted by the court, Semrau was guilty of murder -- or, given the ambiguity about the precise cause of death, attempted murder.

Ah, but that forced the court to face its own moral dilemma. In addition to being the married father of two children, Capt. Semrau is, by all accounts, an excellent and admirable soldier. And everyone agrees that his sole motivation was compassion for a dying man. Whatever the law says, it feels profoundly unjust to convict this good person of a heinous crime and to subject him to the automatic life sentence that goes with it.

But the other option open to the court, acquittal, was also distasteful. Semrau's act was blatantly unlawful. And the military insists on a "no exceptions" policy about shooting prisoners, not least because any such act may be used as enemy propaganda.

Only two choices. Both awful. Which will you choose?

The court squirmed and made a third choice, finding Semrau guilty of "disgraceful conduct." No one who honestly acknowledges the facts could come to such a conclusion. It was an easy out.

Most of the commentary on the Semrau tragedy treats it solely as a military matter. It's not. These sorts of morally challenging situations arise more frequently in hospitals and hospices, where people in pain live out their last moments.

Usually, pain can be managed. But in increasingly rare cases, it can't. And even after life support is withdrawn, the agony may draw on.

What then? The law is clear. Nothing may be done to hasten death. It's the distinction between "killing" and "letting die." Withdrawing a feeding tube and letting someone slowly waste away in pain is legal. But administering an overdose of morphine that delivers an immediate and painless death is murder.

Imagine the doctors and nurses confronted by that moral dilemma. If they do nothing, they may condemn someone who will die anyway to horrible, pointless suffering. If they act, they are murderers.

The way this is usually handled is with deceit. Don't ask, don't tell. But occasionally someone does ask or tell. When that happens, the justice system almost never responds with a murder charge, as the law plainly directs, but with a minor charge like "administering a noxious substance." It's a moral dodge. An easy out.

As these cases have shown repeatedly, most people see a profound moral distinction between mercy killing and murder. But the law recognizes no such distinction.

It is not people's moral sense that is flawed. It is the law. How the law should be changed is debatable. I would prefer that someone like Semrau be praised, not convicted, but a reasonable case can be made for the creation of a lesser charge of "compassionate homicide."

What is not debatable is that the law as it stands is unacceptable. And verdicts like that rendered against Capt. Robert Semrau are dishonest and indefensible.
 
That much makes legal sense. But if the court martial found, as a matter of fact, that Semrau shot the prisoner with intent to kill, but the prisoner may or may not have died of his existing wounds, it would certainly be attempted murder. And yet Semrau was acquitted of precisely that charge. Why? That would be the correct conclusion if the court felt there was reasonable doubt that he shot the prisoner. But if that were the case, there would be no grounds for convicting him of "behaving in a disgraceful manner."

Maybe it's just me, but for starters, to find someone guilty of:

"Murder" <--- one must be proven to have caused the death of a live person; and

"Attempted Murder" <---- one must be proven to have attempted to cause the death of a live person.

So, with testimony given that the guy had 5 minutes earlier been "98% dead" casting reasonable doubt upon whether or not the enemy Taliban was actually alive (ie: there were no "facts" presented by the prosecution to prove "life" at the moment of the shots) when the admitted-to shots occured ...

One simply can not "murder" or "attempt to murder" an already-dead person. One must be proven "live" by facts for that to be the case. That makes legal sense.

However, shooting a dead body could indeed be seen as a disgraceful act. That makes legal sense too.

Ergo, the verdict seems to make sense to me.  Sigh.
 
But how can you be sure he wasn't still clinging onto life?
I agree entirely with the article. 

I have family members who work as nurses in ICU and Emerg; and yes it is the harsh reality the medical profession often  faces.
And that is why it is recommended that families have completed "power of attorney for personal care" documents.
 
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