CAP vs. other infantry courses

[Disenchantedsailor]

My 2 cent solutions:

2. Everyone coming for CAP should have everything issued at THEIR supporting Base and not by 3 ASG (well emergency issues not withstanding)

In most cases (emphasis on most) The Schools are thier home units making 3 ASG the supporting supply base (excepting of course the summer serials very RMC and reserve heavy, the nature of the beast)

 

[medaid]

In most cases (emphasis on most) The Schools are thier home units making 3 ASG the supporting supply base (excepting of course the summer serials very RMC and reserve heavy, the nature of the beast)

Most not always, MOST of the time the PRes pers come properly equipped since they belong to "field" units. However, the ROTP students are often under equipped and have to get sorted out there. 

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

for the most part sorting out of ROTP students kit is the responsability of Base Kingston, aside from the civi U types,

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Want to talk about wars and training? How bout we're not training like we should be fighting? How about the equipment provided for the candidates are often falling apart and even after exchange are still falling apart?

Sure there's no weekend off in war, but guess what? Training isn't war. You also get HLTA remember?

Good one on OCdts need weekends off because they have boo-boos. Because YOU have never been injured and had to take time off? Because MCpls, Sgt, Capt, WO, Maj have NEVER been injured during their career that's forced them to take time off? Give me a break. Quit talking out of your ***.

They cram allot of info into a VERY short amount of time. Often times you don't have enough time to absorb or rest. Why do you think CAP has one of the highest injury and failure rates for courses in the Army? One of, not the highest.

Please elaborate on how CTC and the rest of Army is not training how we should be fighting or whatever you said.  As far as the equipment falling apart, as long as the guys and gals on the pointy end have the kit, I am not so concerned.  I dealt with it.  WOs' and Sgts and everyone else who are injured suck it up, or pack it in, the same as everyone else.  Injured?  Me?  You bet.  What does that have to do with this thread?  All courses cram alot in as you say.  My Recruit course way back when you were...5 or so was like that, and every course up to and including a 6B course as well.  Are you suggesting that only CAP is 'crammed'?  If so, I would love to load you on one of the old SAIC courses.  Now THAT was crammed, I felt it for those guys.  (They were all Inf MCpls and said it was a HARD course).

All training is for war.  (repeat as necessary)

I am having a hard time taking this serious from a 23 year old who is defending the position of OCdts not having weekends off to clean kit and sleep.  

You didn't convince me.  

Work on it.

 

[armyvern]

In most cases (emphasis on most) The Schools are thier home units making 3 ASG the supporting supply base (excepting of course the summer serials very RMC and reserve heavy, the nature of the beast)

Oh yes ... and don't we here in 3ASG know it.

You didn't bring your Tac Vest with you why!!?? Because you didn't want to carry the weight and figured we'd just give you another?? Sweet --- we see it all.

On a good note though -- at least we managed to convince Saint Jean to allow some of those Army guys they're heading our way to keep their Army kit.

In short --- the good book says YOU will make every effort to get your kit from your home Unit PRIOR to reporting to a training base for course. Guess what this base is? Guess how many hundreds of folks we get in who just say -- "I figured I'd get it here instead, less weight to carry??"

We CAN forecast quantities of kit we are going to require for students coming to us from other parts of the training system --- but we can NOT forecast for stupidiots; stupidiots who take away kit from those who didn't have an ability to get it anywhere else prior to coming here for training.

If you're not posted here -- we are NOT your supporting Home Unit. If you happen to have a posting message to one of those schools as a candidate -- then we ARE your supporting Unit. Every Unit/Base/Whatever who is sending candidates here for training MUST make every attempt to kit those soldiers they are sending us PRIOR to sending them. It's the shortfalls we are supposed to look after, not fully kitting the entireity of them because some other place didn't do their job.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Must be up by the old Range Control gate/water tower is it? 

CFSME - Reserve Engineer Training Squadron has their tent city there so I can't see any room for anyone else to use

And now they have expanded to the side next to the water point, so the only place I could see is to knock down all the trailers in the L-Lines and build there.

 

[Infanteer]

That's why you should do what I do and just buy all your own kit.... ^-^

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Well put Vern. my supporting base bent over backwards and even performed some magic tricks to try to fully kit me out, some stuff was just impossible to get, and to be fair, I haven't had a need for the winter stormtrooper hood anyway, but I agree some places just aren't doing the job proper, or candidates are too lazy to send stuff CMTT and figure they can just get stuff on 638's when they get here. (I know most of my course tried that)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Right. And you'd be the first one to sign up for a course that ran 24/7, right? Whatever, I'm not getting into this now. You lost my interest in talking to you with the 'OCdt's with boo boos' comment. I know, no one can resist a cheap shot at us. And I'm not being cocky. CAP is a regular old beasting and getting that weekend break is VERY much appreciated. We got few of those (which is fine, we are there to learn and train, not to chase beer bottles all over Freddie) and you can bet they were needed. Anyways, I'm done arguing with you and taking this thread way off track.

It has nothing to do with taking cheap shots.  You are trying to say 'we work too hard on CAP' and I am telling you to give your head a shake.  I have been on, and taught on, courses that ran close to 24/7 at times, so...I think I 'signed up' for that when I joined up.  Didn't  you??

I am not arguing with you.  I am stating my opinion.  Married people argue.  Heck, I haven't even asked you on a date yet!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Oh yes ... and don't we here in 3ASG know it.

You didn't bring your Tac Vest with you why!!?? Because you didn't want to carry the weight and figured we'd just give you another?? Sweet --- we see it all.

On a good note though -- at least we managed to convince Saint Jean to allow some of those Army guys they're heading our way to keep their Army kit.

In short --- the good book says YOU will make every effort to get your kit from your home Unit PRIOR to reporting to a training base for course. Guess what this base is? Guess how many hundreds of folks we get in who just say -- "I figured I'd get it here instead, less weight to carry??"

We CAN forecast quantities of kit we are going to require for students coming to us from other parts of the training system --- but we can NOT forecast for stupidiots; stupidiots who take away kit from those who didn't have an ability to get it anywhere else prior to coming here for training.

If you're not posted here -- we are NOT your supporting Home Unit. If you happen to have a posting message to one of those schools as a candidate -- then we ARE your supporting Unit. Every Unit/Base/Whatever who is sending candidates here for training MUST make every attempt to kit those soldiers they are sending us PRIOR to sending them. It's the shortfalls we are supposed to look after, not fully kitting the entireity of them because some other place didn't do their job.

Once upon a time, candidates were "screened" at the home unit and a checklist was signed off, part of which was the kit list as per the JIs for applicable base/school, and part of the paperwork was a Certified True Copy of mbr's clothing docs.  Atleast then we could verify if the mbr had been issued the kit, and mbr was then instructed to ensure all kit as per the JIs was accounted for and serviceable, prior to departing for the course, so places like Base Clothing Gagetown wouldn't get swamped with people with "the dog ate my homework" reasons for not having the kit.  Is this, or something like it, not being done now at all??  It worked well, but perhaps has gone by the way-side...

 

[scoutfinch]

Let's be perfectly honest here... CAP is challenging but it is certainly not that hard.  You have to work hard but their is nothing academically overwhelming.  And otherwise, you just get beasted for a few weeks.  As I have mentioned here before, I had an awesome time on CAP.  I loved it.  The only reason that people really fail (unless they are colossal screw ups) is because they show up for course in a poor state of fitness.  Besides, given that the course is offered in 2 week mods, every second weekend is off -- at a minimum -- so that new candidates can be received on course. 

When I did CAP in 2006, the only people that recoursed were removed from the course because they showed up unfit.  To be perfectly honest, the only ones that weren't fit were Reservists (before everyone gets their knickers in a twist, read exactly what I said:  not all Reservist were unfit, but those that were recoursed were reservists) which makes sense given that most of the RegF candidates were coming out of RMC or immediately off of BOTP and would have had the opportunity to hone their fitness before arriving on CAP.

We also had every weekend but the first weekend off.  I can't speak for courses since then but that is how the serials were run in summer 2006.

CAP isn't hard... Ph. 3/Dismounted infantry??? From what I have seen, not having done the course... that is hard.

 

[armyvern]

Once upon a time, candidates were "screened" at the home unit and a checklist was signed off, part of which was the kit list as per the JIs for applicable base/school, and part of the paperwork was a Certified True Copy of mbr's clothing docs.  Atleast then we could verify if the mbr had been issued the kit, and mbr was then instructed to ensure all kit as per the JIs was accounted for and serviceable, prior to departing for the course, so places like Base Clothing Gagetown wouldn't get swamped with people with "the dog at my homework" reasons for not having the kit.  Is this, or something like it, not being done now at all??  It worked well, but perhaps has gone by the way-side...

The CTC joining instructions still detail that members are to report for training WITH items as per their applicable kitlists.

member's no longer have to bring "certified true copies" as their clothing docs are now electronic and viewable accross the nation when we need to confirm an issue/non-issue of kit.

That being said:

Ref: CFSM 007 3-13B-002, para 10-11.

10. Initial issues of personal allotment items by training base clothing warehouse to individuals undergoing training (excluding transfers)
a.  Every effort shall be made by the member’s parent unit to ensure that all initial issues of Personal Allotment Kit are satisfied prior to the individual departing on course.
b.  If items of Personal Allotment Kit listed in joining instructions cannot be provided prior to departure, the parent base/station/wing shall advise the training base in writing of the member’s kit deficiencies indicating the following information:

i.  Course number and date of commencement
ii.  Course loading message number
iii. Explanation as to why the issue could not be completed by the parent district
iv. Items which could not be issued

c.  The training base reviews member’s IA, issue the deficient items of kit and requisition any remaining shortfalls as required.
d.  If issues are made, the training base retains the signed CDB121 on file and forward to the member’s parent base immediately upon completion of the member’s training. The documents are to be forwarded under cover of a DND 728, Document transit and receipt form. Upon receipt of the documents, the parent base shall file with members clothing records.
11. Initial issues of Personal Allotment Kit to individuals on Temporary Duty (TD) or attached posting:
a.  Every effort shall be made by the member’s parent unit to ensure that all initial issues of Personal Allotment Kit are satisfied prior to the individual departing on TD or attached posting.
b.  If issues are made by a district other than the member’s parent district, the clothing warehouse retains the signed CDB121 on file, and forwards it to the member’s parent base immediately upon the individual completing their out clearance for return to parent unit. The documents are to be forwarded under cover of a DND 728, Document transit and receipt form. Upon receipt of the documents, the parent base shall file with members clothing records.

Eerily, the ONLY base who notifies us of the details they are required to as per para 10b above when they can't kit a member prior to them coming on course ... is Halifax.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So the rumours aren't true.  Something DOES go right in Halifax!  ;D

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

I must say to Esquimalts defence, my RQ emailed the CQ at the infantry school with my particular list of deficiencies, and it boiled down to either he could issue it or it wasn't really required i.e. storm trooper hat and flak jacket.

aside from that we have had every weekend off (save for this upcoming we're in the field) and all but 2 evenings, 1 for TOET's and the other for some well deserved "corrective trg"

 

[JesseWZ]

So for us ROTP guys, we should attempt to get sorted out by our home units. Would I need a loading message for this or can I just go and request items I am supposedly entitled to (Tacvest amongst other things) and just expect to receive them? ( I have no loading message as yet... hence the question)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I will say you *normally* need a copy of the Crse Loading msg before you can start to ask for kit, and make sure you bring a copy of the kit list as per the JIs (Joining Instructions).  Otherewise, the Supp Techs have no confirmation that you have an entitlement to said kit.

 

[JesseWZ]

Don't suppose anyone could PM me a copy of the joining instructions that include kitlist (as I have no DIN access and the ULO office just went through an overhaul with postings and whatnot)

 

[Loch Sloy!]

That's why you should do what I do and just buy all your own kit.... Azn

I'm sure THAT would go over well with the course WO. It would probably be a good way to make friends.  Maybe I'll also make up a gillie suit just to show the staff how keen I am... I'll tell them you said it would be okay

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well..having been a Snr NCO on the Army side of the house before, and done the Crse WO job several times, I can say that us old dumb boys and girls do realize that some troops are going to show up without all the kit.  Behind the scenes, we go and talk nicely to the Snr NCOs and WOs in the QMs and our own CQMS/SQMS's to make sure that you do get everything we can get our hands on to make sure you train the way you are supposed to train, so that later you can fight the way you are supposed to fight.  However, it is NOT a perfect world, and neither is war and combat.  Giddy up!