Canadians Losing Freedom of Speech?

[48Highlander]

NBK, I find that kinda hard to beleive. Maybe things are different in Europe than they are here, but to that extent.....are you sure you don‘t live in a gay neighbourhood?

Anyway, sex is all about "arbitrary reasons", otherwise you‘d have sex with every male, female, or animal that walked by. Personaly, I like to have a set of standards. I don‘t especially want to have sex with someone who weighs 300lbs or looks like their face caught fire and was subsequently extinguished with a shovel. Similarily, I don‘t want to have sex with men. Different people like different things. Sex without any limitations or standards is too easy and rather pointless.

 

[K. Ash]

I agree with what Allan said. If a person is gay and wants to marry another gay person, fine that‘s their buisness I, the government, the church, or anyone else for that matter has absolutely no right to interfere.

With that said, I don‘t see the need for gay parades and the like.

Oh yea, NbK what part of Europe did you say you were from?

 

[nbk]

Haha well I‘m from Germany but the girls here are just as open as the girls back home. Its the men who are a little less mature over here and a little more uptight about things like that. Maybe it is a big city thing, since I lived in a big city in Germany and a big city here (Toronto). I don‘t really know how people are in little towns.

Usually its just something that comes up in conversation, for example if you are chatting up a girl at a bar and ask her if she has a boyfriend, follow it up right away with "or a girlfriend?" and they will usually give a chuckle and say "nothing too serious" or something. Or when you talk about past relationships, usually they are pretty open about talking about when they fooled around with their girlfriends.

I thought up another thing as well. What if you really liked a girl but she had some difference that is not "socially desierable" or that you are not used to liking? What if you really liked a girl who was a little chubby, where you usually always only liked skinny girls? What if you fancied a burnette when you convinced yourself that you only go for blondes? Should you ignore your feelings for them just because they do not have a charicteristc that you have became accustomed to desiring? What if you met a really lovely Asian girl, even though you only think of yourslf dating white chicks? Some people may see gender as a more significant factor than hair colour or whatever, but is it really? They are all still people. If you fancy them, you fancy them. Just have fun.

 

[48Highlander]

You‘re from Toronto? Do you by any chance live near Church and Alexander? Because that‘d certainly explain your experiences....

 

[rdschultz]

I‘m going to call bullshit on NBK too. First its every girl you‘ve met, then its all of your friends that are girls. While your circle of friends might be a little more curious about their sexuality, you‘re stretching the truth when you claim that most people are bisexual. Without proof to back that up, it is a claim that cannot be made in good conscious.

The simple truth is that most people are heterosexual. Most people aren‘t bisexual. Whether you or your friends are, that has no real bearing on this. I see guys and girls holding hands, kissing, or dating all the time, and very rarely do I see two guys or two girls doing the same things. Unless its a massive coverup by most people in the world, this is pretty strong evidence.

The only way your claim could possibly work is if you choose to redefine bisexual, at which point this becomes an argument of semantics. If someone who is bisexual is simply someone who feels an attraction to both sexes, then thats one thing. But its incredibly hard, if not impossible, to quantify attraction. As well, for that to be true, it would require that most people suppress their feeling of attraction on a regular basis. A bisexual is strictly limited, in my opinion at least, to someone who actively pursues or engages in sexual relationships with both sexes.

 

[ZipperHead]

Hoser rd, I suspect your worldview is limited to Saskatoon, which isn‘t exactly the most cosmopolitan of cities. I am not exactly a jet setter, but I have travelled somewhat whilst in the Army (mostly on leave and such). Cultural differences between Canada and other parts of the world dictate what is "normal" here. For example, in some parts of the world it is normal for men to kiss each other on the cheek, and that doesn‘t mean they love each other (in the sexual way). In the Middle East, men hold hands out of custom, not romance.

People need to realize that our white-bread ways in Canada are only one of many ways, and what is normal??? Alexander the Great was purported to be gay because that was the "stylish" thing to be in his time. So was he bi-sexual, or homosexual? Who cares, I suppose, as he did a lot of ***-kicking in his day, and I don‘t suppose any of the tough guys frequenting this forum would‘ve survived calling him Nancy Boy. People seem to get pretty worked up when they find out someone is gay, but if the person is someone they "like" they seem to forgive that fact. I always seemed to think there was something "funny" (lotsa leather....) about Rob Halford of Judas Priest, and then heard rumours that he was gay, and it made sense, but some people I know went into heavy denial, because he can‘t be gay, "‘cause Judas Priest kicks ***, dude!!!!". Sort of like the SHARP video, where the guys says "He can‘t be gay, he‘s Native!!"

Anyway, I think the reason so many people are vehemently homophobic is that because they are afraid that they might actually enjoy a homosexual experience. And really, how can you know that you aren‘t gay unless you‘ve had a homosexual experience and didn‘t enjoy it? Did you know that you didn‘t like liver or brussel sprouts until you ate them? For the record, I don‘t know if I‘m homosexual..... (save your "flames").

And that‘s what I got to say about that...

Al

 

[1feral1]

Allan:

I think Saskatoon is a good representive of a slice of real Canada, as is any city overall in the country, and saying otherwise is just plain ignorance.

Saskatoon is the largest city in Saskatchewan, with a population well exceeding 220,000. The same TV programs, websites, movies, magazines, and the rest of it, influence people in Saskatoon as they do in TO or Vancouver. So, I find your comment pisss weak.

You want tolerance? Remember, I am originally from rural Saskatchewan. Try coming to Sydney, where there are entire suburbs that are gay, and I mean entire suburbs, not just a small area.

Sydney‘s population is over 4.1 million with over 800 suburbs, and the population grows at over 1000 per week. Like Canada, the mainsteam population base of Australians in maily NW Eurpoean, but certain sectors of the metro area are divided not only by sexuality, but ethnic groups, so whilst travelling thru, one gets a mosaic experience. Some pleasant, some not.

I am totally a straight bloke, happily living in sin, 44 yrs old, been around, well travelled, and I have seen it all.

One of my first eye openers here was down on Oxford St, Darlinghurst, in inner Sydney, one hot January night, while witnessing two of the most intense totally flamboyant gay men dressed in short-shorts, singlets, having the biggest pash (French kiss)whilst on a street corner waiting for the light to change.

My GF noticed the disgust on my face and said "welcome to Sydney, get used to it". She was not wrong!

Thats now going on 10 yrs ago, and I have long accepted that people are people, and what they do is their business, and as long as everyone happy, I don‘t really care, just don‘t flaunt it in front of me or touch me.

Personally I do not approve of this lifestyle, but what people do in the privacy of their own homes is their business. Allthough I accept this behaviour, I do not approve of gay marriage, because I consider that lifestyle abnormal, but thats my choice. I do not openly condem them for how they live, and as I said, if they‘re happy, so what.

As for Poofs in the ADF, we have one in the regiment, yes a SNCO (a regimental band member)at that.

He recently approached one of the Diggers, off duty at a local pub, telling him he loved giving oral sex, and when the Digger said "NO WAY", he even gave him his business card, saying "if you ever change your mind, give me a call". The rumours ran wild within the Bty, and that SNCO now is looked upon without respect, and the lads do not have much time for him.

Although when I found out about this, and after a good long laugh, I think it was in bad taste (no pun intended) that a gay SNCO would prey on a young straight digger. It was wrong, and the SNCO was way out of line, but on the other hand how many straight SNCOs have asked a female soildier the for a date? Any behaviour involved frat, to me is is unprofessional, and damages the chain of command, and damages morale. We all know that.

Anyways my 2c.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[K. Ash]

Allan,

I get your point and I know what your trying to say. But, I‘ve never had a homosexual experience and I KNOW I‘m not gay.

So please don‘t go using the brussel sprouts and liver analogy, please...

 

[Infanteer]

yawn....

STAT

 

[atticus]

Wes, I totally agree with you but what the heck is a digger? Is that the same as a sapper but in the ADF?

 

[1feral1]

Digger = Private.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[rdschultz]

Originally posted by Allan Luomala:
Hoser rd, I suspect your worldview is limited to Saskatoon, which isn‘t exactly the most cosmopolitan of cities.

Agreed, it isn‘t the most cosmopolitan of cities. Far from it. And while I‘ve done my growing up in Western Canada (Alberta, to be specific, I only moved to Saskatoon a year ago), you‘d be wrong in asserting my worldview is limited to what I see here.

I am not exactly a jet setter, but I have travelled somewhat whilst in the Army (mostly on leave and such). Cultural differences between Canada and other parts of the world dictate what is "normal" here. For example, in some parts of the world it is normal for men to kiss each other on the cheek, and that doesn‘t mean they love each other (in the sexual way). In the Middle East, men hold hands out of custom, not romance.

Ok, perhaps I used that statement a little haphazardly. The point I was impressing was that in every day life, its normal to see public displays of affection between men and women, and much rarer to see the same displays between same-sex couples. I‘ve got no more a problem seeing gay couples showing affection than I do straight couples. Its just that its much more common to see straight couples doing so. While Canada might not be representative of the world, you‘ll note that this topic title specifies Canada, and we‘re on a Canadian army forum. Its no doubt going to dominate the discussion.

People need to realize that our white-bread ways in Canada are only one of many ways, and what is normal??? Alexander the Great was purported to be gay because that was the "stylish" thing to be in his time. So was he bi-sexual, or homosexual? Who cares, I suppose, as he did a lot of ***-kicking in his day, and I don‘t suppose any of the tough guys frequenting this forum would‘ve survived calling him Nancy Boy. People seem to get pretty worked up when they find out someone is gay, but if the person is someone they "like" they seem to forgive that fact. I always seemed to think there was something "funny" (lotsa leather....) about Rob Halford of Judas Priest, and then heard rumours that he was gay, and it made sense, but some people I know went into heavy denial, because he can‘t be gay, "‘cause Judas Priest kicks ***, dude!!!!". Sort of like the SHARP video, where the guys says "He can‘t be gay, he‘s Native!!"

You‘re assuming here, or reading too far into what I‘m saying. I don‘t care if someone is gay any more than I can if they‘re straight (unless that someone is a attractive single female). I hate to pull out the "I‘ve got friends" argument, but it fits. I‘ve known a good number of gay or bisexual people throughout my life and I consider many of them friends. I‘m one of the people who honestly doesn‘t care. Its not my place to judge someone else, so I quite simply don‘t.

The only complaint I had was that I don‘t NBK had a correct statement in that "most people are bisexual". Unless most people are closet bisexuals (or non-practicing, as that would generally work out), it isn‘t true. Unless you‘ve got some real evidence to the contrary, such a statement defies common sense and logic.

Anyway, I think the reason so many people are vehemently homophobic is that because they are afraid that they might actually enjoy a homosexual experience. And really, how can you know that you aren‘t gay unless you‘ve had a homosexual experience and didn‘t enjoy it? Did you know that you didn‘t like liver or brussel sprouts until you ate them? For the record, I don‘t know if I‘m homosexual..... (save your "flames").

Again, I‘m not homophobic. Obviously my saying that doesn‘t make it so, but you‘ll have to take my word for it.

As for your brussel sprouts analogy, I think thats a tad bit of an oversimplification. I‘ve never had a homosexual experience, but I‘ve never had the inclination to have one either. I‘ve also never eaten raw liver (raw simply because I‘ve eaten cooked liver, so I can‘t really say that), nor had the desire to try it. For that reason, I think I can safely call myself a non-raw-liver-eater.

Science has yet to tell us what the difference between a homosexual and a heterosexual is, so the best we can do is speculate. I don‘t see a neuroscience degree up on my wall, so I‘ll refrain from such speculations.

 

[Rick_Donald]

So there are alot of homosexuals and bisexuals out there. So there was in Rome and Greece prior to those great empires falling.

 

[Gunnar]

To get back to the original topic....

Why shouldn‘t hate speech be legal? Why shouldn‘t I be able to discriminate against people who are "bleen"?

Think about it. Freedom of speech, freedom of ideas, property rights to do what I want with MY money and property.

Now, when it comes to breaking the law, i.e., committing acts of violence, harrassment etc., that‘s right out...because then you are violating real individual rights. Government should be totally neutral on that issue...violate rights, receive the statutory punishment. But freedom of speech involves freedom of ideas....and you don‘t really have freedom of speech unless you are free to express it.

At the risk of invoking Godwin‘s law, Nazi Germany had hate speech laws too....anybody who said "Jews are of positive benefit to the culture of Berlin, and have brought us ethnic foods, culture and traditions from other nations and the past" would likely be considered to be anti-Aryan, and carted off to prison. That‘s because NG had accepted the idea that the government had the right to legislate speech in the first place. Free speech needs to be FREE, first and foremost.

Carrying this into the whole gay discussion, the logical extension would be: "go ahead, be gay. But don‘t have Pride Days or anything....you‘re anti-hetero". How about we just leave them the **** alone, and let them believe, say and live as they choose, provided they aren‘t actively trying to kill us & etc.

Would you rather have people accept your belief system because they understand where you‘re coming from and actually agree, or would you rather have people accept it because they‘re too dumb, or sheltered (thanks to censorship) to know otherwise? Isn‘t it better that someone know that racist/homophobic arguments are bullshit rather than think there might be something to them because they‘re not allowed to hear them?

"The Government is suppressing the truth!" is the cry of every censored whacko. But you‘ve read web sites where some fool goes on a rant...eventually you can see what a whack-job he is, and you don‘t need to refute everything he‘s said. So let them talk. Let them live as they wish, within the bounds of a common respect for the individual rights of everyone...because if you object to the laws you live under, you are free to attempt to change them, or move somewhere where they don‘t apply.

Civilization is all about living under common rules, like no murder. If you can‘t accept those rules, then as long as you attempt to remain in that society, society will attempt to protect itself by excluding you, i.e., prison. Problem is that the anti-bleen factions want their version of society to be based on more than the objective "bare minimums" of individual rights, and keep trying to invent more....like the right to a job (paid for by the racist owner who doesn‘t want to employ a bleen), the right to not see men kissing in public (at the expense of these people‘s right to expression, pursuit of happiness, etc.).

Abe Lincoln said "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins". Similarly, your right (as a man) to kiss men on the mouth ends where MY mouth begins, but beyond that, it isn‘t my problem. I may not like seeing it, but it isn‘t going to predjudice me against you as a person. You have every right to believe that bleens are a blight on society, and that they should be hunted and killed at every opportunity...but if you try it in OUR society, a society based on respect for individual rights, we‘ll take you out.

Problem we have now is that a small clique of judges and politically correct types think they have the right to re-write our rules along the lines of how THEY think things ought to run, instead of following the KYFHO principles of leaving us alone...for our own good. The paternalistic state. To the extent that they do that, they no longer represent Society, and we have the right to take THEM out, using legal means on which we DO agree. There‘s an election going on. Vote!

 

[nbk]

Originally posted by hoser rd:
[qb]

The only way your claim could possibly work is if you choose to redefine bisexual, at which point this becomes an argument of semantics. If someone who is bisexual is simply someone who feels an attraction to both sexes, then thats one thing. But its incredibly hard, if not impossible, to quantify attraction. As well, for that to be true, it would require that most people suppress their feeling of attraction on a regular basis. A bisexual is strictly limited, in my opinion at least, to someone who actively pursues or engages in sexual relationships with both sexes. [/qb]

Well that is another place where we differ. By bisexual I do mean people who can be attracted to both sexes, not perticularly sleeping with everyone they see.

If you only like girls but are a virgin, does that mean you are not heterosexual?

I honestly do not know any girls who are not attracted to other girls as much as they are to guys. I don‘t know how else to put it.

I can‘t really prove anything I have said about my friends, and I dont really care enough to think up a way, so let me just say to you, look in your own life and ask yourself: have you ever really known any girls who are not attracted to other girls or fooled around with their female friends?

Believe me or don‘t believe me, it wont matter much to either of us. But if you really knew your friends then maybe you would not be so quick to dismiss what I said.

 

[rdschultz]

Ok. Well, thats a little different then. Your take seems to be more of a "everybody has the potential to be a bisexual, so they are one". Attraction and sexual orientation are two totally different things. I‘m very much attracted to porsche 911‘s, but I‘ve never had the inclination to bugger one. Not all attractions are sexual, so your definition leaves much to be desired.

As for the virgin, I think my definition covers that. Like I said, a bisexual in my opinion is someone who actively pursues or engages in. If you‘ve got a virgin who doesn‘t pursue sexual relationships, then I guess you‘re right. They kind of aren‘t a heterosexual. I guess there are varying reasons for why someone might not pursue sexual relationships, so this isn‘t a perfect example. You‘ve still got underlying sexual attraction issues which are hard to explicitly nail down.

I can‘t really prove anything I have said about my friends, and I dont really care enough to think up a way, so let me just say to you, look in your own life and ask yourself: have you ever really known any girls who are not attracted to other girls or fooled around with their female friends?

What your friends do and don‘t do, again, isn‘t an issue. I never asked you prove anything about your friends. The problem I had was that you said "most people", and use only your friends as the example, when there is much evidence to the contrary. And have I ever known girls who are not attracted to other girls? As I‘ve stated, attraction can‘t be quantified, and that doesn‘t automatically determine if one is bisexual. Have I known girls who haven‘t fooled around with other girls? As much as I‘d like to pretend or fantasize otherwise, I have met girls/women who have expressed they have no inclination or experience fooling around with other girls. I don‘t have the experience of walking around with a girls brain on my shoulders, so I can‘t pretend to feel the feelings that a girl feels.

Believe me or don‘t believe me, it wont matter much to either of us.

Believe you or don‘t believe you? I never said anything about not believing about your friends or anything otherwise. I just don‘t think "most people are bisexual". This is not a belief issue.

But if you really knew your friends then maybe you would not be so quick to dismiss what I said.

Umm, I‘m pretty sure you have absolutely no knowledge about me or my friends, so this is a real stretch of a point. I never claimed to know anything about your friends, so please refrain from pretending to know about mine. The only relevant topic here should be society in general.

This has turned into a semantics debate anyways, so I‘m just about done. Obviously we disagree about the meaning of bisexual. I don‘t think its fair to say everybody is bisexual, just because the potential is there, or the attraction is there. By that logic, everybody who‘s ever thought a kid was cute is a pedophile (And using Allan Luomala‘s logic, we won‘t know until we try it.). And please don‘t anybody pretend I was comparing bisexuals or homosexuals to pedophiles, I‘m just extending the logical method to an extreme to show its fallacious reasoning.

Obviously we‘re going to end up agreeing to disagree, so I‘ll probably leave it at that.

 

[1feral1]

Today the Australian Prime Minister, John Howard will pass a law that all homosexual marriages in Australia will be illegal, and all overseas homosexual marriages will be not recognised, plus all adoptions of children by Australian homosexuals made overseas will also not be allowed.

So there ya go.

Try www.news.com.au or www.dailytelegraph.com.au for more info.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hoser RD,
"I‘m much attracted to Porsche 911‘s, but I‘ve never had the inclination to bugger one."
PRICELESS!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Double post

 

[ZipperHead]

The reason I used the not knowing if you are homosexual until you‘ve tried it example, is because when I first heard it, I thought it was brilliant. I was teaching on a SQ course in WATC, and somehow the subject of homosexuality came up, and some young guy made the de rigeur comment along the lines of "Oh I hate fags!!!". One of the MCpl‘s asked the guy: "So, you didn‘t enjoy your homosexual experience?". To which the young guy waffled and stammered that he never had one. And then the MCpl said, "How would you know you‘re not gay unless.........". I thought it was great because it catches people off guard, and makes them defend themselves and possibly question their own sexuality.

As for the comment that we don‘t see gays displaying a lot of affection in public (a la holding hands, kissing, etc), it wasn‘t that long ago that inter-racial relationships were frowned upon, and some people even thought it was disgusting (and some still do, alas...). The only reason it isn‘t common is because people aren‘t accepting of it, and in White-bread Canada people aren‘t ready for it. In some places "gay bashing" is a real threat, and I suspect that most people would prefer not to get their *** kicked by a group of Neanderthals because they wanted to show some affection. I grew up in Campbell River, BC (population roughly 25000 when I grew up there) and I distictly remember the kafuffle when some of my classmates saw (horrors!!!!) two gay men holding hands in the movie theatre. So I know what it‘s like to live in a small town, and what small town attitudes are like.

I doubt anybody is going to change their opinion about any of this, but I suspect that some people might do some thinking, and question what they were "learned", and maybe, just maybe, might start thinking for themselves instead of what they are "told" to think. A mind and a parachute are alike..... they both must be open to function properly.

Al