Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[NavyShooter]

Agreed - the MK-41 VLS works nothing like that...at all...here's a video of loading an SM-6 canister into a VLS:

Consider, this this the TALOS missile system's below deck loading mechanism.

What you're proposing would be a somewhat simplified version of this, with only needing to move the missile cannisters around. Thing is, the only way to load a VLS is from the top - the J-Tubes that direct the exhaust up/out would block loading from below. So, essentially, the solution would be to bring cannisters across the upper decks, use a fitted crane mechanism, and use that to reload the cannisters into the VLS while at sea.

Except.

That was tried - the 32 cell VLS on the 280's only had 29 missiles, it had 3 cells dedicated to a loading crane. Which couldn't be used at sea...and took 3 missile cells, and if you're going to be pulling up alongside somewhere to load missiles, they're going to have a crane that you can use already.

So, the solution is to either add more cells, or put more missiles in the same cells.

There is a version of the ESSM that does quad packs - 4 missiles in a single cannister. So, theoretically, you could take the 16 cells on the Halifax class and turn it into 64 shots.

NS

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There is a ship that comes to Vancouver, I think Handymax sized. It has a covered mobile crane designed to load and unload containers. It would likely make a perfect reload ship. With a redesign of the crane it could pick up a bunch of missiles in their boxes from it's hold and then load them vertically into the warship. Of course this would have to be done in a calm anchorage, but alleviates going to a port that would allow this to take place and make it harder to interdict the loading cycles as it could be happening in a lot of places. Plus the ship could also replenish other supplies at the same time, with the forward hold dedicated to the missile magazine.

 

[Kirkhill]

Calm waters? Who needs calm waters if you can do this?

Harrier Skyhook

Dowty Boulton Paul – Harrier Skyhook

www.dowtyheritage.org.uk

HOW TO HOOK ON AND HOLD A HOVERING HARRIER

The thing is: those cranes look a lot like the Mission Bay cranes on the Type 26

 

[Kirkhill]

By the way - does anyone have any graphics of the CSC/Hunter/T26 CIC?

 

[Dana381]

So, that is not how a mk41 VLS works…

Plus, even if that was how it worked, the ship would have to be a minimum of 70 feet tall in that area, just to make all that work, let alone leave room for all the other bits and pieces a ship needs to run itself. It would be a design and stability nightmare.

How tall is the type 26 now? I can only find the draught (8M). I do understand it would be difficult to incorporate into a ship that size. The idea being that you would only need a few cells to actually launch from so your weight at height could be limited.

Early missile carrying ships worked that way, mainly as each missile was bigger and chunky. County-class destroyer - Wikipedia

I did not read the entire article, I will take your word for it. Are their any videos of the system in operation.

Agreed - the MK-41 VLS works nothing like that...at all...here's a video of loading an SM-6 canister into a VLS:

Consider, this this the TALOS missile system's below deck loading mechanism.

What you're proposing would be a somewhat simplified version of this, with only needing to move the missile cannisters around. Thing is, the only way to load a VLS is from the top - the J-Tubes that direct the exhaust up/out would block loading from below. So, essentially, the solution would be to bring cannisters across the upper decks, use a fitted crane mechanism, and use that to reload the cannisters into the VLS while at sea.

Except.

That was tried - the 32 cell VLS on the 280's only had 29 missiles, it had 3 cells dedicated to a loading crane. Which couldn't be used at sea...and took 3 missile cells, and if you're going to be pulling up alongside somewhere to load missiles, they're going to have a crane that you can use already.

So, the solution is to either add more cells, or put more missiles in the same cells.

There is a version of the ESSM that does quad packs - 4 missiles in a single cannister. So, theoretically, you could take the 16 cells on the Halifax class and turn it into 64 shots.

NS

Interesting info on the 280's. I guess the closest thing I know of is how a submarine handles torpedoes, just turn it vertical and load the canister with the missile already inside. If a system was designed from the start for this style loading then a suitable exhaust system could be designed. The launch tubes would be entirely above the water line so exhaust could be to the side and suitable protection for deck crew installed.

Like I said I'm just spitballing here, Maybe I'm trying to solve a problem that only exists in my head but I enjoy trying to work out ideas and learning from it.

 

[NavyShooter]

You're making a problem for yourself.

Containerized missiles work - if you watched the TALOS video, you'd observe the myriad of equipment support systems and spaces that are required below decks that take volume, weight and displace other key systems.

Back in those days, they were retro-fitting missile systems to big-gun cruisers. Those big guns took up a lot of space, and had deep magazines to supply them. Even so, with the TALOS system as fitted on the ship as described in the video, they only carried just over 30 missiles.

The SM2 'one armed bandit' launcher that the US installed on their Perry class frigates gave a similar magazine capacity (40), but also had a large number of moving parts.

A standard MK.41 32 cell system takes less space, and is damn near maintenance free in terms of the launch mechanisms, and gives about the same number of shots.

If you want more missiles, add more cells, or add more ships.

Here's a site that discusses briefly the differences between an Arm launcher and a VLS:

VLS Versus Arm Launchers

Our recent discussion about the Virginia class cruisers (see, "Virginia Class Cruisers" ) brought up the issue of ‘arm’ launchers versus ver...

navy-matters.blogspot.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I did not read the entire article, I will take your word for it. Are their any videos of the system in operation.

 

[KevinB]

Curious if a Mother Ship could be setup with a hollow rear middle area/floating dock that a front VLS ship could pull in and moor up and then the Crane on the Mother other to drop the VLS reloads in regardless of sea state (for the most part).

 

[NavyShooter]

If you watch the VLS loading video that I showed, you'll observe that you're sticking a LONG box into a very tight slot.

That's not something that's really good to try and do at sea.

I'll fall back to my previous position - need more shots? Add more cells, or add more hulls.

 

[NavyShooter]

Or.

Find a spot of clear bulkhead on the outboard sides of the Hangar (similar to the Karel Doorman from the Dutch Navy) and add a row of them:

 

[Lumber]

Consider, this this the TALOS missile system's below deck loading mechanism.

"All I can say after watching this is thank God for VLS.. now everything is fired directly from the magazine without all the expensive and fragile rube Goldberg missile handling equipment. Still a cool system tho."

I do wonder, though: was the idea of VLS always around, but we just didn't have the technology to make it work, or did someone in the late 70s just finally go, "Hey guys, why don't we just launch the missile from ready-use verticle canisters?" and everyone went "holy fuck how didn't anyone think of this for the last 20 years?"

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As complicated or more so than a 16" gun turret

 

[Underway]

"All I can say after watching this is thank God for VLS.. now everything is fired directly from the magazine without all the expensive and fragile rube Goldberg missile handling equipment. Still a cool system tho."

I do wonder, though: was the idea of VLS always around, but we just didn't have the technology to make it work, or did someone in the late 70s just finally go, "Hey guys, why don't we just launch the missile from ready-use verticle canisters?" and everyone went "holy fuck how didn't anyone think of this for the last 20 years?"

I honestly think it took a while to get all the parts together and developed for a proper vertical launch AAW missile.

You need good solid state fuel, good control surfaces and/or vectored thrust, and good control systems. And it all needs to fit into a small package. A lot of the older AAW missiles were angled launch because you couldn't get all of the above into a single missile. And they were much bigger.

VLS was a thing for ballistic missiles though. Posideons were being used long before VLS AAW missiles came around.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

This is the ship I was talking about, the cranes have a 8m reach over the side for a container, but a missile loading rail could likley be made to reach as far as needed.

 

[Kirkhill]

There again, why complicate things, when you can launch direct from the transport vessel.

Ghost Fleet Fires Real Missile

The Navy tests a containerized SM-6 on an unmanned ship.

www.usni.org

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You still need to rearm the warships who have the sensors to direct those missiles. So you need to rearm them and if you can rearm them fairly close to the conflict, then they can get back into the fight faster.

 

[Kirkhill]

You still need to rearm the warships who have the sensors to direct those missiles. So you need to rearm them and if you can rearm them fairly close to the conflict, then they can get back into the fight faster.

No you don't. You need to keep the onboard missiles as your weapons of last resort. If you know you are going to be launching, or even if you know you are going into a situation where launch is likely, then launch from the transport vessels first. They can be replenished by bringing new vessels into the area and sending the empties back for a refill.

 

[Lumber]

No you don't. You need to keep the onboard missiles as your weapons of last resort. If you know you are going to be launching, or even if you know you are going into a situation where launch is likely, then launch from the transport vessels first. They can be replenished by bringing new vessels into the area and sending the empties back for a refill.

Missile pods, anyone? #HH

 

[NavyShooter]

Back to my suggestion to strap on expansion packs on the side of the hangars like the Dutch did.

 

[Maxman1]

Or, we could also build five or six Type 31s, which are based on a development of the Danish Absalon frigates.