Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Stoker]

 

[DBNSG]

View attachment 87073

So a landlubber question here. At a 27,000 metric ton capacity and 165 meters long I am assuming this asset could also lift the JSS?.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Negative.

Weight is no problem but length is short by about 10 meters ... and for such things, even a centimeter over is too much.

 

[Underway]

JSS should easily fit into the el'classico drydock at Irving though. Though it will be to big for the drydock in CFB Esquimalt it will also easily fit into the Vic Shipyards drydock. The CFB Esquimalt drydock should... just... be able to fit the River's

If not then Davie has big enough drydocks.

I am a bit concerned about not being able to do an emerg docking with JSS easily though.

 

[DBNSG]

JSS should easily fit into the el'classico drydock at Irving though. Though it will be to big for the drydock in CFB Esquimalt it will also easily fit into the Vic Shipyards drydock. The CFB Esquimalt drydock should... just... be able to fit the River's

If not then Davie has big enough drydocks.

I am a bit concerned about not being able to do an emerg docking with JSS easily though.

Is Jetty B commissioned yet?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Negative.

Weight is no problem but length is short by about 10 meters ... and for such things, even a centimeter over is too much.

Seaspan just got a new drydock as well, but seems to be at the other yard. The Careen is getting extensions welded to it as it is supposed to launch the AOR's.

 

[Rainbow1910]

VAdm Topshee talking about River class timelines and how Irving is preparing in the newest issue of the Canadian Defence Review.

CDR: When are you expecting the first CSC?

VAdm Topshee: Were doing everything we can and I wish I could accelerate it further. If everything goes according to plan, we are looking to cut steel on the first one in April of next year. The difference between the production test module and the cutting steel on the first ship is the production test module is proving Irving's readiness to build the ship — doing the things that they haven't done before in terms of steel work, armour plating, specific types of cuts and welds and fabrications that they have not done for the Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ships. So that's all the stuff that they're proving right now, that they can convert the detailed design drawings into actual production output so when they hit start, so to speak, that the parts are delivered to the right places, and cut and assembled in the right way, and that the workers and the production material are all aligned and arriving and sequencing through the production process properly.

We're estimating that the first operational deployment of the River-class destroyer, the HMCS Fraser, will be about 2035, so we're still 10 years away from that which is an incredibly long time, and that's Just the first one. We know the Halifax-class has to keep going until 2040. We've been making decisions to give precedence to schedule above pretty much all else, while balancing cost, obviously, and that means that we have favored systems that have already been proven, that are in service and that have already been integrated into the core systems that will be a part of the River-class destroyer. So, everything we can do to bring this along as quickly as possible is being done.

 

[Czech_pivo]

VAdm Topshee talking about River class timelines and how Irving is preparing in the newest issue of the Canadian Defence Review.

Just out of curiosity, what was the timeline, from when first steel was cut to operational deployment for HMS Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier? Was it 10yrs? Was it longer?

 

[Rainbow1910]

Just out of curiosity, what was the timeline, from when first steel was cut to operational deployment for HMS Queen Elizabeth II aircraft carrier? Was it 10yrs? Was it longer?

July 7th, 2009 for first steel cut and anywhere between 2017 and 2021 for the first "operational deployment" for HMS QE. She had an incredibly extended working up period due to various problems with construction, UK doctrinal attrition and other delays like a lack of aircraft.

 

[Swampbuggy]

VAdm Topshee talking about River class timelines and how Irving is preparing in the newest issue of the Canadian Defence Review.

2035…Holy Hell. I hope there’s some sort of Plan B that the RCN is working on, because if there’s anything I’ve learned from this forum, it’s that the CPF’s are rounding the bend. It looks very much like the Navy is going to be short on warships in the not too distant future and I have to wonder if that means AOPS will be sent to do frigatey sorts of things, whether they’re suited to do it or no.

I also wonder if this is putting increased pressure on getting the subs PDQ. Maybe a few new boats, along with the new AOR’s can carry some of the load rather than sending a HALIFAX out.

Realistically, how many CPF’s will actually make it to 2040 (when there are supposedly going to be 9 RIVERS in the water, though with 10 years for the first one…)?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

2035…Holy Hell. I hope there’s some sort of Plan B that the RCN is working on, because if there’s anything I’ve learned from this forum, it’s that the CPF’s are rounding the bend. It looks very much like the Navy is going to be short on warships in the not too distant future and I have to wonder if that means AOPS will be sent to do frigatey sorts of things, whether they’re suited to do it or no.

I also wonder if this is putting increased pressure on getting the subs PDQ. Maybe a few new boats, along with the new AOR’s can carry some of the load rather than sending a HALIFAX out.

Realistically, how many CPF’s will actually make it to 2040 (when there are supposedly going to be 9 RIVERS in the water, though with 10 years for the first one…)?

We will be uparming the AOPs with bits and pieces from the CFP as they self divest. Start building up your stock of baling wire and duct tape.

On the brightside, we should have enough sailors then to man the new subs...

 

[Maxman1]

Maybe five or ten Type 31s to fill in the gaps might be a good idea.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Maybe five or ten Type 31s to fill in the gaps might be a good idea.

i doubt that the UK could fill our needs as well as their own and if we got a Type 31, that's a CSC you are not getting.

 

[Maxman1]

i doubt that the UK could fill our needs as well as their own and if we got a Type 31, that's a CSC you are not getting.

Or build it in Canada at Davie or Heddle.

 

[Czech_pivo]

2035…Holy Hell. I hope there’s some sort of Plan B that the RCN is working on, because if there’s anything I’ve learned from this forum, it’s that the CPF’s are rounding the bend. It looks very much like the Navy is going to be short on warships in the not too distant future and I have to wonder if that means AOPS will be sent to do frigatey sorts of things, whether they’re suited to do it or no.

I also wonder if this is putting increased pressure on getting the subs PDQ. Maybe a few new boats, along with the new AOR’s can carry some of the load rather than sending a HALIFAX out.

Realistically, how many CPF’s will actually make it to 2040 (when there are supposedly going to be 9 RIVERS in the water, though with 10 years for the first one…)?

Really lends to the argument of having another shipyard, cough Davie cough cough, be assigned the building of certain block pieces of CSC’s and floating them over to Halifax for fitting together. Might get the 2035 down to say 2032 or 2033 for that first ship….could have 2 in the water by 2035 and maybe 4-5 by 2040.

 

[Underway]

2035…Holy Hell.

10 years to first operational deployement is comparable to the UK timeline for the Type 26. Ship will probably be turned over to the RCN 2032ish which is 7-8 years and is also a comparable timeline.

But that is operational deployment. The ship would be available for lower readiness operations well before that.

But overall yes, its a long time to keep the frigates going. This is why they are going to push the submarines hard. Depending on who they go with to build the first submarines could be accepted for IOC 2029 or 2030.

 

[Underway]

Really lends to the argument of having another shipyard, cough Davie cough cough, be assigned the building of certain block pieces of CSC’s and floating them over to Halifax for fitting together. Might get the 2035 down to say 2032 or 2033 for that first ship….could have 2 in the water by 2035 and maybe 4-5 by 2040.

I don' think that it will speed up anything. If anything it might slow things down as they don't have full control over fixing errors during the build process (what do you mean you're off by 6mm!) UK is doing that and their timeline is similar. Iriving also does build blocks at different yards as well. The bow blocks are built across the harbour at their other yard with the specialized equipment/engineering that entails.

 

[Swampbuggy]

10 years to first operational deployement is comparable to the UK timeline for the Type 26. Ship will probably be turned over to the RCN 2032ish which is 7-8 years and is also a comparable timeline.

But that is operational deployment. The ship would be available for lower readiness operations well before that.

But overall yes, its a long time to keep the frigates going. This is why they are going to push the submarines hard. Depending on who they go with to build the first submarines could be accepted for IOC 2029 or 2030.

I suppose the part that I found most alarming was that the bulk of our sea power is concentrated in the CPF’s and their days are numbered. A long birth for the CSC’s put us in worse position than others. The RN has a little bit more to fall back on with the Type 45, subs and even Rivers for certain deployments, though the Dukes are starting to get retired. I don’t see any other way around it, except for the Sub project pulling out all the stops.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I don' think that it will speed up anything. If anything it might slow things down as they don't have full control over fixing errors during the build process (what do you mean you're off by 6mm!) UK is doing that and their timeline is similar. Iriving also does build blocks at different yards as well. The bow blocks are built across the harbour at their other yard with the specialized equipment/engineering that entails.

Its either we find a way to bring 2035 down 2-3yrs for the first ship or by 2035 we'll be basically up-arming the AOP's and being comparable to the Irish Navy in terms of capabilities. Yes a bit of exaggerating but truly the Halifax's will be 40+yrs old by then.

To recap:
By 2035
- all 4 Victoria class subs will most likely be waiting to be made into razor blades and no date for the first replacement

- we 'might' have our first CSC turned over for operational shakedowns

- the oldest Halifax (using launch date) will be 47yrs old

- the youngest Halifax (using launch date) will be 39yrs old

- all 12 Kingston's will be a distant memory (no known replacement or timeline for replacement)

- the first AOPS will be 17yrs old (halfway to be made into razor blades)

- the first JSS will be 16yrs old (close to halfway to be made into razor blades)

So the RCN in 2035 will consist of 2 AORs, 6 AOPS and an unknown number of frigates that are deemed available for NATO/NORAD operations

I've always believed that for every problem there are multiple solutions. To 'fix' the above problems we need some testicular fortitude and willingness to do the most un-Canadian of things - spend money to make the situation more manageable. If we think the US and the our other Allies are pissed off at us now, just imagine the conversations around various National Command Centres if someone was to present the above to their Commanders in a few years (if they haven't already).

And before everyone chimes in that we are spending money now - please stop and remember that yes we are spending money now - BUT we are spending money now so that in 2050 we can GET BACK to where we were in 2000, 50yrs in the past, with 2 AORs, 15 main combatants and 12 Kingston (replaced by 6 AOPS) with a wild card on the subs.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

UK launches 2nd Type 26