Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[SeaKingTacco]

Well, here's a ship that is still in commission in the UK to play exactly the same role : HMS VICTORY. Her name will never be used again, and the honour will be hers in perpetuity.

Ok, but HAIDA is not still in commission and she did not take part in the most pivotal naval battle in the past 5 centuries.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I would think that, while not as consequential in geopolitical terms, the Channel fights against U-boats and E-boats to protect the D-Day landings were pretty pivotal (and down right nasty).

But still, she is Canada's most decorated and honoured warship. Why not preserve that legacy, at least until another warship of a different name manages to rake up more battle honours than her? Why give her name to another warship that will not likely garner as many honours for herself?

P.S. Someone who knows more may chime in, but my understanding was that she was formally brought back in commission when she became the Ceremonial Flagship, as is the WWII Memorial ship HMCS Sackville when so acting.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Ok, but HAIDA is not still in commission and she did not take part in the most pivotal naval battle in the past 5 centuries.

That's very British centric my friend. There are those who would argue that Midway was pretty damn similarly pivotal. Others would put their money on the Battle of Tsushima Strait.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I would think that, while not as consequential in geopolitical terms, the Channel fights against U-boats and E-boats to protect the D-Day landings were pretty pivotal (and down right nasty).

But still, she is Canada's most decorated and honoured warship. Why not preserve that legacy, at least until another warship of a different name manages to rake up more battle honours than her? Why give her name to another warship that will not likely garner as many honours for herself?

P.S. Someone who knows more may chime in, but my understanding was that she was formally brought back in commission when she became the Ceremonial Flagship, as is the WWII Memorial ship HMCS Sackville when so acting.

I am not one to downplay Haida's contributions as she is a very important part of the RCN's history however, I don't think she is the most decorated warship. She holds 5 battle honours, Arctic 1943–1945, English Channel 1944, Normandy 1944, Biscay 1944 and Korea 1952–1953. Her sister HMCS Iroquois is tied with her for 5 battle honours in her original form and the namesake currently has 6. Some of the CPF's either match or exceed Haida's number of battle honours currently. I am fairly sure one of the MCDV's has 4 to its name as well.

Haida isn't special because of just her battle honours but the deeds of the vessel itself. I don't see any reason why the museum ship cannot exist alongside an active duty ship to continue her legacy forward within the active fleet of the RCN.

Haida is not formally commissioned into the RCN, she holds the title of ceremonial flagship but it does not carry a formal commission as a vessel of the Royal Canadian Navy, she is entirely owned and operated by Parks Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/destroyer-flag-ship-1.4535906

A bid to have the storied Second World War destroyer HMCS Haida recommissioned has been rejected by National Defence.

Responding to an e-petition tabled recently in the House of Commons, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said the warship — currently in the custody of Parks Canada and docked in Hamilton — is a valued part of the country's naval history.

"While the government does not support the re-commissioning of HMCS Haida, it will designate HMCS Haida the Flagship of the [Royal Canadian Navy] for ceremonial purposes," said the written response.

"From a technical perspective, HMCS HAIDA can no longer be sailed and moving it even short distances is challenging, costly and difficult," said Sajjan's response, explaining why the government is opting for a ceremonial honour.

"While the RCN will not provide the crew, funding or any official unit designation that are usually provided for a commissioned warship in the RCN, and all responsibility for care, custody, maintenance, crewing and any other issue will remain with Parks Canada, this option will allow Canadians to honour the spirit of HMCS HAIDA at no additional cost."

The destroyer will be given an honorary commanding officer and will observe the traditional sunrise and sunset ceremonies when it is open to the public between May and October.

FAQ’s on HMCS haida – Hmcshaida

www.hmcshaida.com

Is HAIDA still part of the Navy?​

​

No. She was paid off in 1963. In May 2018 she was commissioned as the ceremonial flagship of the RCN, but the designation is purely ceremonial

 

[SeaKingTacco]

That's very British centric my friend. There are those who would argue that Midway was pretty damn similarly pivotal. Others would put their money on the Battle of Tsushima Strait.

Not even close.

A Midway loss by the Americans would just have delayed the inevitable Japanese defeat. The US would still have won the Pacific War.

Tsushima fundamental changed nothing, geopolitically.

A defeat at Trafalgar would have opened the door for French invasion of England. That is fundamental.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Only to the Brits. No one knows how the invasion would have turned out in the end. Plus, it didn't stop him from trying to take over the rest of continental Europe later on (War of 1812 - heard of it?). He was stopped in the end by land power at Waterloo.

Losing Midway would have set the Americans to NOT go after Japan but rather concentrate on holding Hawaii. Losing Midway (which was a much closer run thing than appears) would have meant that both the American Battleship fleet and the Aircraft carrier fleet would have been wiped out. The Pacific fleet would have ceased to exist for all practical purpose and the Atlantic fleet was nowhere near as powerful in those days.

As for Tsushima, it was called Japan's Trafalgar, so I let you decide. However, its not the results in Eastern Russia that would have mattered but the fact that the Tsar had then plans for expansion towards continental Europe, and Tsushima foiled them.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'd argue the BoA was probably the most important campaign and specifically Naval Campaign in history.

Not the same as a singl battle, but I digress.

As @SeaKingTacco said, had Midway and Tsushima had different outcomes they wouldn't have have created the possibility of centuries of ripples that Trafalgar did.

An invasion of England would have created a whole other alternate reality in the present. The other two battles, while definitely important, don't hold that kind of generational geopolitical impact that Trafalgar did.

The Romanov dynasty was going to fall, and Japan was still going to lose WW2.

Just the opinions of moi.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And I respect your opinions. Alternate history is a difficult field.

But if the standard is "did it prevent England from being invaded", then the Battle of the Spanish Armada and the Battle of England (yes, I know an air battle - but it prevented Hitler from invading England, so ...) should count too.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I put in the Spanish Armada because it is within the "last five centuries" used by SKT and there actually was a joint Spanish/French/Dutch invasion fleet ready to invade England, but it needed to meet up with the Armada first and the English fleet never let it stop or meet with it.

 

[Underway]

HMCS STROKER

And here I was thinking more of the cholesteral in the fish and chips and bad PT habits.

---

There are a number of pretty significant naval battles over the last 500 years.

I'll throw in The Battle of Myeongnyang which is perhaps the most tactically brilliant victory in all of naval history (if not the most impactful in the grand scheme of things).

Tsushima directly lead to a few things, first was the withdrawl of Russia from Korea leaving it to Japan, made Japan the dominant power in the West Pacific and proved to the Japanese that they could beat a European power. It also lead to the end of Russia's dominance in naval affairs in their own back yard, emboldening their rivals (Ottomans and Austrian Hungary). The analysis of that battle by the British lead direclty to the creation of the Dreadnaught and thus the naval race.

Trafalgar didn't stop the invasion of England. Napoleon had already abandoned plans to do that well in advance of the battle. What it did do was force Napoleon to adapt the continental system and remain under blockade, slowly starving him in Europe. It kept the British able to influence events on the continent with their small army (which could land anywhere and still be supplied by sea) and allowed them to keep up their work on alliances by using the trade carrot. And it allowed the British to fight in North America and Europe in 1812 at the same time.

Given that Trafalgar didn't have any larger effect then Tsushima. Sure the Royal Navy went on to be unchallenged dominant naval power until just after WW1 but there was a lot of other decisions that went into that later. Other powers could have challenged them sooner or later, Trafalgar was long in the past even 60 years later.

 

[Lumber]

Guys, you're thinking to generic. The most impactful naval battle ever is the Battle of Mobile Bay, from whence we get one of the most iconic phrases ever, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

(yes I know that those exact words weren't spoken by Farragut, but it's still the source of that phrase!)

 

[dapaterson]

HMCS Battle of Halifax Parking

 

[Dana381]

If they are "Canadian Destroyers" than we must name the first three
1. Trudeau
2. Singh
3. Freeland

Budum ching... I'll see myself out!

 

[lenaitch]

Interesting exchange of naval history. TY.

 

[KevinB]

If they are "Canadian Destroyers" than we must name the first three
1. Trudeau
2. Singh
3. Freeland

Budum ching... I'll see myself out!

I’d suggest you need to be more specific on the Trudeau…. But that could give 4 anyway.

 

[Underway]

The anti-gov't rhetoric is getting a bit ponderous and stale. There are other threads for this sort of thing.

 

[FSTO]

A full broadside on Alan Williams credibility.

Richard Shimooka: Canada’s military is in crisis. Here’s what’s definitely not helping

thehub.ca

 

[Rainbow1910]

A full broadside on Alan Williams credibility.

Richard Shimooka: Canada’s military is in crisis. Here’s what’s definitely not helping

thehub.ca

Great article and refreshing to see somebody actually take Williams to task over his continued unhelpful remarks.

 

[Navy_Pete]

A full broadside on Alan Williams credibility.

Richard Shimooka: Canada’s military is in crisis. Here’s what’s definitely not helping

thehub.ca

Great article, thanks.

Always enjoy reading Richard's articles, always well researched and considers real, practical issues in the actual, real world context.

 

[Kirkhill]

UK build programme

If six MRSS are built, then the RN now has ship and submarine construction pipeline that comprises no less than 28 vessels. (8 x T26, 5 x T31, 4 x SSBN, 2 x SSN, 3 x FSS, 6 x MRSS). If we conservatively estimate MRSS will be approx 20,000 tonnes, this would add 120,000 tonnes of steelwork to the programme, almost equal to the aircraft carriers. A contract of this size would indicate that a consortium will be needed to build these vessels. It’s too early to speculate how this may be executed but the shipyards at Rosyth, Belfast and Birkenhead may all be involved and sequencing around FSS will be interesting. Furthermore, if capability is not to be ‘gapped’, work needs to begin soon as the existing vessels need replacing in the mid-2030s.

Royal Navy’s Multi Role Support Ship programme to go ahead | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

8x T26 (CSC mod)
5x T31 (Iver Huitfeldt mod)

3x FSS (Fleet Solid Support Ship - RFA )

Fleet Solid Support - Defence Equipment & Support

Fleet Solid Support Ships will be the Royal Fleet Auxiliary’s modern solid stores replenishment ships, an essential supporting element to the delivery of the Maritime Carrier Strike Group.

des.mod.uk

6x MRSS (Absalon or Rotterdam?)

4x SSBN
2x SSN.

28 hulls - multiple design criteria, logistics nightmare, but.....flexible response.