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Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

I honestly couldn't give a shit about Canadian Industry. All I've seen from them is efforts to give us shitty kit and milk us for cash.

We should be going where our dollar gets us good quality and value. Is thats off shore so be it... Canadian industry, be better.

As for crewing, the USN crewing models don't fit with Canada. In cool with empty mess decks and the ability to expand in times of need.
 
I am not a huge fan of this article, it feels to me like its pushing the common media narrative of "CSC program is expensive, complex and bad!" without much nuance. Some of the points come off as cheap gotchas to paint CSC and the Canadian government as hopelessly incompetent.

The CSC program was pitched as a relatively low-cost, off-the-shelf replacement for the Halifax class of warships, with a high level of Canadian industrial content.

Yet, over time, the Navy has asked for changes that have frequently replaced Canadian-built content with U.S. technology, the net effect being the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars to Canadian industry and an increase in overall cost.
CSC has been a replacement for the Halifax class frigates and the Iroquois class destroyers for as long as I can recall. Anybody with any familiarity with naval procurement should be aware that replacing the entire backbone of a naval force (15 ships) is not going to be 'relatively low cost'. If this is a reference to the pitifully low original CSC cost estimate that media writers love to trot out, I think its a disingenuous point to make.

I also do not get the obsession about Canadian industrial content. The hulls are being built in Canada alongside as far as I can gather, all of the various sensor suite components contracted to Ultra. Some components are unable to be sourced in Canada or the options in Canada are actively worse. The off the shelf requirement was always going to be including changes required by the RCN, regardless of what design won the eventual contest.

For example, does Canada have a radar design like SPY-7 we can put on CSC? Can we effectively build these in Canada? From what I can gather, the answer is no, which is why we chose a foreign component.

As one source put it, any naval architect will tell you that once you change more than 15 per cent of a ship, you should design a new one, “and we are well past that number.”
The CSC program originally looked at doing a clean sheet Canadian design many years ago but from what I understand, this wasn't carried forward due to the cost and atrophy which our design staff/knowledge had suffered since the Halifax class. I am sure Canada could eventually design a fine vessel but could they design something on a reasonable timeframe to match what I understand is a great design in the Type 26? I am doubtful.

It is public information that the Canadian-developed CM330 combat system, part of the original bid, was replaced by the U.S. navy’s AEGIS system and Lockheed Martin’s SPY 7 radar technology. It is known that MacDonald Dettwiler’s Electronic Warfare system was substituted with Northrop Grumman’s Surface Electronic Warfare Improvement Program.

CMS-330 hasn't been replaced by AEGIS as far as I am aware, this is flat out wrong. CMS-330 has been integrated with sections of the larger AEGIS system including the fire control loop/cooperative engagement capability.

I won't address the points about Canada buying Constellations, other folks have already done so better than I could have earlier in the thread.

I asked the departments of National Defence and Public Services and Procurement Canada for a list of all the changes to the ships that have been approved or pending.

DND said the “operational requirements” of the CSC have not changed. When asked to list separate equipment changes, the military’s entire communications apparatus must have broken down, because silence was the loud reply.

I asked PSPC if it is confident Canadian industrial participation levels will be maintained on the CSC program, in light of all the changes from Canadian to American technology. The economic benefits to Canada are meant to be equal to the value of the winning bid.

“Work continues in this regard, as the project progresses through its major stages,” it said in a statement. Which is not a “yes.”

I also asked PSPC if it has a veto on any changes suggested by the military? “PSPC plays an important challenge function,” it said. “Awarding and amending contracts requires the agreement of DND, ISED (Innovation, Science and Economic Development) and PSPC, as well as the shipyard.” Which, again, is not a “yes”.
This comes off as a cheap attempt at a gotcha, "I wasn't given an itemized list of all the changes to an ongoing high end military project! This government organization wouldn't give me a specific yes or no answer to a question they likely aren't able to meaningfully answer. Something is definitely afoot here!" Who knows what the questions and requests actually were, it is easy to spin your narrative when the other side isn't involved in the article.

At the same time, the war in Ukraine suggests warships are becoming obsolete and vulnerable to low-cost anti-ship missiles.
Russia lost an old, outdated and potentially horribly maintained vessel to anti-shipping missiles. This does not make the concept of surface warships obsolete, especially something cutting edge and capable like CSC.

Would Canada’s security be better served by reducing the number of frigates on order, as Australia and the U.K. have decided to do, and then redirecting the savings to buy a new fixed-price submarine fleet off the shelf from South Korea or some other foreign supplier?
Submarines are an optional if useful capability to Canada. With a reduced surface fleet, we will be unable to effectively fulfill our current and future missions at home and abroad.

Why is Canada so convinced that it needs 15 big ships, when the price is increasingly unaffordable.
Because Canada is a nation with two separated fleets, west coast and east coast. The fleets need to be able to operate independently and on short notice if possible when a conflict is on the horizon. These 'big' ships are a requirement as the days of small and relatively cheap frigates are past, you need a minimum amount of capability with regard to sensors and weapons to be survivable against current and future threats. Evolving requirements for additional crew requirements, endurance, heavier equipment, etc all push you towards a larger and more expensive hull.

The opinion of this article seems confused. It questions the cost of CSC yet also lampoons it for doing cost savings measures like taking onboard non-Canadian equipment.
 
Yes but the case of the CSC most the changes seem to make sense. We took a top of the line base design (many in the UK say their ship is under armed) and changed it for needs of program. The program was one class of ship to replace two and do the work of topline combatant. The USNI piece makes this sound like the correct plan because of the two ocean nature of the RCN.


But I could also be a case of we only get to do this once every 40 years so we better throw everything in.
Except the AEGIS system is a very capable system but drives massive change. Similarly the SPY7 is great, but the kind of thing you need to design a ship around.

Taking an off the shelf design, and making fundamental changes that have huge impacts on the design, crewing, training and support means it's no longer off the shelf, and would have been easier to design it from scratch. Similarly selecting equipment without considering the crewing/trade structure impact is interesting, and I still don't think the RCN realizes their duty watches will be expected to triple in size alongside home port to cover off AEGIS, and if they don't play the US will just cut them off.

If the changes were made within the existing boundaries of what the ship was designed for, we probably could have added armament without needing to chuck out the entire ops room crewing/trade structure concept, while living with radars that did a good enough job.

Some other strange things being added on, like an experimental degaussing system that needs to be supercooled (which creates an interesting safety issue when the coolant leaks, so you then add a lot of leak detectors and maintenance on).

They will be cousins I guess, but that's about it.
 
I think the Canadian shipbuilding program is a good idea. I think that Canada needs to maintain some degree of domestic manufacturing of major capital equipment.

I disagree with @SeaKingTacco that we in the US won’t give yard space, but only partially, as the only way the RCN would get ships was a JV with the USN. That would have to have been exercised much earlier.
A lot of US yards had closed due to lack of work, so we don’t have the ability that we did in the 80’s and 90’s.

Hey we do have a bunch of LCS you could have though.

One just needs to accept the cost of the NSS requirements is being amortized into the ships being built those facilities.
Good idea, poorly implemented. Mostly because Canadians are lazy and unproductive.


I honestly couldn't give a shit about Canadian Industry. All I've seen from them is efforts to give us shitty kit and milk us for cash.

We should be going where our dollar gets us good quality and value. Is thats off shore so be it... Canadian industry, be better.

As for crewing, the USN crewing models don't fit with Canada. In cool with empty mess decks and the ability to expand in times of need.

We should give a damn about Canadian Industry. Having the ability to build your own equipment, especially in a war of Industrial scale is critical.

We need to reindustrialize and fast. Our dollar gets us nothing because we have no skill, we have no skill because we have no industry.

We have no industry because we've been trying to live like the Dutch for past 50 years.
 
Good idea, poorly implemented. Mostly because Canadians are lazy and unproductive.




We should give a damn about Canadian Industry. Having the ability to build your own equipment, especially in a war of Industrial scale is critical.

We need to reindustrialize and fast. Our dollar gets us nothing because we have no skill, we have no skill because we have no industry.

We have no industry because we've been trying to live like the Dutch for past 50 years.
Part of the issue with Canadian Industry for the Defense Sector is the CAF is a shitty customer.
It's small rounds of buys for the most part, as a result the contractor needs to build in a significant profit level to carry them to either the next CAF program, or to be able to exist in the Civilian market space.
Most are simply used as vote buying mechanism for the Government in power.

Lets face it one can type an infinite list of programs that Canada never should have bought into, that where solely conducted due to the location of the company.
 
Yes but the case of the CSC most the changes seem to make sense. We took a top of the line base design (many in the UK say their ship is under armed) and changed it for needs of program. The program was one class of ship to replace two and do the work of topline combatant. The USNI piece makes this sound like the correct plan because of the two ocean nature of the RCN.


But I could also be a case of we only get to do this once every 40 years so we better throw everything in.
logical or not, you don't take a 15,000 dollar car, add 15,000 worth of upgrades and them bitch about paying 30,000 which is what we have done with the csc.
 
Part of the issue with Canadian Industry for the Defense Sector is the CAF is a shitty customer.
It's small rounds of buys for the most part, as a result the contractor needs to build in a significant profit level to carry them to either the next CAF program, or to be able to exist in the Civilian market space.
Most are simply used as vote buying mechanism for the Government in power.

Lets face it one can type an infinite list of programs that Canada never should have bought into, that where solely conducted due to the location of the company.
It's funny how many people get pissed off when you say this in procurement discussions but fundamentally we don't buy enough volume or consistent flow for anyone to really care what we are doing when you are talking about international businesses.

The reality though is we occasionally do big buys, do nothing for ever, then wonder why the manufacturers that spooled up for that one big buy went to do something else. It's killing us now on the obsolescence side, and in a lot of cases it's a special production run with big minimum quantities (which is a good forcing function so we get more than one or two widgets vice 5 years worth). And for things like the AFFF replacement and other big issues, we are chasing OEMs vice the other way around, where the USN is getting actively courted by the OEMs because they are big enough, and consistent.

If our ships are the clapped out Tempos with the spinners, underlighting and big stereo, the support side is a keen, broke high schooler trying to shoestring together what they can with the Haynes repair manual. With CSC having entirely different major systems and system components because 'Canadianization' it will also turn into the same clapped out, aging unicorn in 20 years, because we learn nothing and actively ignore current issues because they are negative.
 
There's a lot here.

A healthy industry allows for expertise to flow between Fleet Maint Facility, Ottawa SME's (like Class Desk), shipyards, and industry. Allowing for that means that you get less chance of being one person deep on a problem or equipment. I firmly believe that we need a build industry to ensure we have a repair and maintenance industry as well, including those who are under gov't payroll as there is certainly a flow between those industries.

We see people leave to go to work in industry all the time and vice versa. That's one sign of a healthy industry, where there are enough jobs around that people can move within it.

I do not disagree that the project is expensive and we need to keep tabs on things to avoid corruption etc.... But frankly I don't give a crap about the total cost. I really don't. It's kinda irrelevent in the grand scheme of things and its also pretty imaginary until its spent. And saying we should have gotten this or that ship isn't going to change things. We didn't its in the past and we move forward with the decision that is made.


As for buying Constellations, USN made that look cheap because a) they are using the Burke project money for the masts, as its a Burke mast going on that ship, b) ammo/missile different budget (including warehousing costs and ammo storage upgrades), c) no infrastructure attached to that budget like in Canada (jetty upgrades, new ammo jetting in BC etc...), d) radar/comms different budget, e) no new training facilities required (more infrastructure) f)Aegis different budget g) rebuilding Canadian industry cost

If we went to the US to buy it would be much more expensive than what the US says they are paying. And we would still have to come up with the money for infrastructure improvements, ammo, training facilities in different projects.


I expect that there might be a re-evaluation of the surface fleet requirements similar to what Australia is doing within the next 10 years. The Australian re-eval is due to AUKUS and the impact of the nuke boats on the budget and particularly crewing.

IF the expected submarine purchase that's rumoured goes through the RCN is going to have to do a similar exercise. I can't see us crewing 12 frigate/destroyers, 6-12 submarines, 2 JSS, Asterix, 6 AOPS and 12 MCDV's (and whatever is supposed to replace them) in the near to mid term.

Is part of our problem that we are starting at the high end and only working at the high end?

Most shipbuilding countries out there started off building small craft like fishing vessels millennia ago. They are still producing small craft like fishing vessels. But they also produce a host of intermediate sized vessels that ramp up from surf boats to super tankers, ro-ros and container ships. The industry has a steady stream of customers that buy based on demonstrated expertise. Building ships for the government is just another job. The government gets to buy a commercial vessel or a high spec vessel. Either way it has a solid platform for estimating costs and a proven delivery track record.

Given that even the Danes, Norwegians and the Dutch, who have very well developed industries, farm out some of their work to low cost builders like Poland, Romania and South Korea and their governments regularly buy commercial vessels that they use for para-military and military purposes.

And they turn them over regularly - ie after 10 to 20 years of service.

Canada doesn't have the breadth or depth of experience or capability.
 
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Yes but the case of the CSC most the changes seem to make sense. We took a top of the line base design (many in the UK say their ship is under armed) and changed it for needs of program. The program was one class of ship to replace two and do the work of topline combatant. The USNI piece makes this sound like the correct plan because of the two ocean nature of the RCN.


But I could also be a case of we only get to do this once every 40 years so we better throw everything in.

Every project I have ever been on every Change Order made sense. But 90% of them were unnecessary. A common characteristic of every project is that as it advances and more people get involved more people feel the need to leave their thumbprints on the record.
 
Is part of out problem that we are starting at the high end and only working at the high end?

Most shipbuilding countries out there started off building small craft like fishing vessels millennia ago. They are still producing small craft like fishing vessels. But they also produce a host of intermediate sized vessels that ramp up from surf boats to super tankers, ro-ros and container ships. The industry has a steady stream of customers that buy based on demonstrated expertise. Building ships for the government is just another job. The government gets to buy a commercial vessel or a high spec vessel. Either way it has a solid platform for estimating costs and a proven delivery track record.

Given that even the Danes, Norwegians and the Dutch, who have very well developed industries, farm out some of their work to low cost builders like Poland, Romania and South Korea and their governments regularly buy commercial vessels that they use for para-military and military purposes.

And they turn them over regularly - ie after 10 to 20 years of service.

Canada doesn't have the breadth or depth of experience or capability.
That was actually factored into the NSS, and why the combat package started with AOPs, and non-combat started with the smaller CG ships.

Good in theory, but the CG ships were too small of production runs, so basically resulted in 4 concurrent projects in design for a new shipyard. Worked a lot better on AOPs, but with the CSC delays without the CCG AOPs would have lost all the workers for a few years due to the production running out, so was maybe a bit ambitious.

Both shipyards did poach heavily from established yards.
 
Good idea, poorly implemented. Mostly because Canadians are lazy and unproductive.




We should give a damn about Canadian Industry. Having the ability to build your own equipment, especially in a war of Industrial scale is critical.

We need to reindustrialize and fast. Our dollar gets us nothing because we have no skill, we have no skill because we have no industry.

We have no industry because we've been trying to live like the Dutch for past 50 years.

But do we have to build things that other people are demonstrably better qualified to build? We could just as easily have had a Norwegian yard build the AOPS and Canada build everything that went into it and by everything I mean from cots to radars.
 
We should give a damn about Canadian Industry. Having the ability to build your own equipment, especially in a war of Industrial scale is critical.

We need to reindustrialize and fast. Our dollar gets us nothing because we have no skill, we have no skill because we have no industry.

We have no industry because we've been trying to live like the Dutch for past 50 years.
FWIW I agree - and Canadian 'defence' industries have no interest in properly kitting the CAF - the bottom line is their chief concern and seeing how much the taxpayer can be milked.
 
That was actually factored into the NSS, and why the combat package started with AOPs, and non-combat started with the smaller CG ships.

Good in theory, but the CG ships were too small of production runs, so basically resulted in 4 concurrent projects in design for a new shipyard. Worked a lot better on AOPs, but with the CSC delays without the CCG AOPs would have lost all the workers for a few years due to the production running out, so was maybe a bit ambitious.

Both shipyards did poach heavily from established yards.

Koreans on the left coast and Danes on the right?
 
But do we have to build things that other people are demonstrably better qualified to build? We could just as easily have had a Norwegian yard build the AOPS and Canada build everything that went into it and by everything I mean from cots to radars.
Yes and what happens when the balloon goes up and those Norwegian Ports are now inaccessible? Or they are taken out very quickly by strikes?

Shipbuilding is a strategic industry. It's imperative we maintain the capability to build our own. It's a military necessity.

This line of thinking that "someone else will build it" is exactly why Western Ammunition and Missile Cupboards are now bare and the Russians are firing more missiles and drone strikes than ever.
 
For example, does Canada have a radar design like SPY-7 we can put on CSC? Can we effectively build these in Canada? From what I can gather, the answer is no, which is why we chose a foreign component.

Except the AEGIS system is a very capable system but drives massive change. Similarly the SPY7 is great, but the kind of thing you need to design a ship around.

There are some very good reasons why Canada went along with the SPY-7, and it gets a few birds with one stone, including some collateral benefit to some wider capability-sets than strictly naval/maritime. 👍🏼
 
Yes and what happens when the balloon goes up and those Norwegian Ports are now inaccessible? Or they are taken out very quickly by strikes?

Shipbuilding is a strategic industry. It's imperative we maintain the capability to build our own. It's a military necessity.

This line of thinking that "someone else will build it" is exactly why Western Ammunition and Missile Cupboards are now bare and the Russians are firing more missiles and drone strikes than ever.

Then do two things

Establish an industrial strategy that encourages the local use of ships and the local construction of ships.

Buy ships that Canadians are building.

Yards that build one ship a year or 20 ships every half century are not going to do us any good in an emergency.

Frankly even investing in peace time factories didn't help the Brits much in WW2. The RN resorted to getting all available yards to produce the civilian whaler and sticking guns on them so they could roll garbage cans off the stern. And the RAF got piano makers to build their fastest aircraft.

The SMO is now at the Barbarossa era - 15 months into a 69 month engagement. Euromaidan was just short of 10 years ago.


My take from both the WW2 and Ukrainian experience is that the exquisites of the peace time planning boards are all supplanted by anything that will work.
 
There are some very good reasons why Canada went along with the SPY-7, and it gets a few birds with one stone, including some collateral benefit to some wider capability-sets than strictly naval/maritime. 👍🏼
For sure, but it's a heavy weight up really high, so needs a lot of offset to keep the ship from being top heavy, so resulted in a lot of design changes.

Bit like upgrading a car engine, and then all of a sudden realizing you need to beef up the frame, transmission, suspension tires etc to suit. Doesn't mean it's not a good idea, just that it's not a simple change.
 
Then do two things

Establish an industrial strategy that encourages the local use of ships and the local construction of ships.

Buy ships that Canadians are building.

Yards that build one ship a year or 20 ships every half century are not going to do us any good in an emergency.

Frankly even investing in peace time factories didn't help the Brits much in WW2. The RN resorted to getting all available yards to produce the civilian whaler and sticking guns on them so they could roll garbage cans off the stern. And the RAF got piano makers to build their fastest aircraft.

The SMO is now at the Barbarossa era - 15 months into a 69 month engagement. Euromaidan was just short of 10 years ago.


My take from both the WW2 and Ukrainian experience is that the exquisites of the peace time planning boards are all supplanted by anything that will work.
what you will have at the start of a war is basically all you will ever have. Systems are simply too complex to be produced quickly. The ship building programme is a good notion that is 15 years late in starting (or more). If we do it right, from about hull 10 onwards we will be basically into a new build, new design so no, we will never have 15 CSCs but maybe 9 with the shipyards building the next generation thereafter.
 
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