Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)

[wakingheart]

I would percieve the organization of the Units to be very diferent from that of the Americans. I think the best way to understand (Or at least I hope my perception is correct) is found in the CSOR ethos, the Term warrior diplomat and the emphazise on individual leadership seems to point towards a different ideological role then JTF2.

Since JTF2 has been the only special forces unit in Canada since the Somolia incident, they have been responsible for essentially everything, but with the integration of CSOR thier work load has been lessoned and they can focus more on counter-terrorism. It seems to be counter intuative to constantly be using  JTF2 in Afgahanistan and other areas of Operations, if there are sever casualties it leaves Canadians vulnerable.  Imagine for a second that a group of armed Islamists storming the Parliment to decapatate Prime Minister Harper, if say the bulk of the Unit was out in the boonies, Canada would get a serious black eye. I am sure they would continue with intelligence gathering for CSIS but it seems like CSOR may become the go to guys for Overseas operations, I am rather certain that talent from both units would be interchangeable given operational requirments and availability. It also seems that CSOR will have individual specialized unit, so regardless of comparing the pass fail entrance requirments, recruitment would be based upon special skills as well as Physical testing. It just seems to me that they are excpecting CSOR operators to do allot more then just kill and gather intel, though for certain that may be a part of it. Like I said earlier, the statment on a pervious page when Col. Barr mentioned that they may be responsible for overseas operations, should be noted. There has also been media chatter about putting them to use for rapid response for the United Nations, but that is just speculation.

 

[3rd Herd]

but that is just speculation.

so is your profile information 

 

[Greymatters]

Since JTF2 has been the only special forces unit in Canada since the Somolia incident...

Are you refering to the whole Airborne Regiment as a former special forces unit, or some other unit?

Edit - Oops, missed the date of the post...

 

[geo]

Are you refering to the whole Airborne Regiment as a former special forces unit, or some other unit?

Considering the fella was last active in July of 2007, I don't think he hears you.

 

[wakingheart]

Nah I am still around. I guess I was just not being careful enough with my words. What I should have said that the Airborne Regiment was the closest thing we had to special operators.

But this is another debate. I will just put up the definition.

Special Forces (dictionary.com)

–noun
Army personnel trained to organize, instruct, supply, and supervise indigenous forces engaged in guerrilla warfare and counterinsurgency operations, and to themselves conduct unconventional warfare.

 

[wakingheart]

No bubble bursting here, I modified the post but walked away and left it sitting on my comp for a bit. I did not think I would get a response so soon. Once again the Airborne was the closest thing we had after the Devils Brigade.

Look into the organizational structure of the Airborne But if you really want to get into this start a new thread. Plus I would talk to some old Airborne guys about the their training back in the day, a decent amount of it would fit in the contemporary definition. Unfortunately however

This is an interesting article that seems to be right on the money.

http://www.commando.org/airborne-history/the-canadian-airborne-as-a-military-elite-fact-or-fiction/

Like I said closest thing we had.

 

[Armymedic]

wakingheart,
while your definition of "special forces" is correct, you interpretation of what the Airborne were designed to do, or Canadian Special operations do is not. JTF2 and CSOR are special operation forces. Neither are, by your definition, special forces as they are not

trained to organize, instruct, supply, and supervise indigenous forces engaged in guerrilla warfare and counterinsurgency operations

.

 

[wakingheart]

Hey don't shoot the messenger that is the Dictionary definition of Special Forces. Mind you I think that this definition is a little antiquated and not reflective of current realties. I mean before counter terrorism was the domain of police forces, but the new realities explain why the Army has it now and not the RCMP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4p-kaEMWAU&feature=related

Look at 03:13 in this video. CSOR fits the dictionary definition of special forces perfectly. Training indigenous forces how to "protect" themselves from terrorism is pretty much akin to saying.

Will CSOR be trained to organize, instruct, supply, and supervise indigenous forces engaged in counterinsurgency operations. It is not a stretch to add guerrilla warfare to that list. If you can train counter insurgency you can train insurgents. However it is not exactly a characteristic of Canada to train and supply insurgents simply that we would have the capacity if necessary.

I mean when it comes down to it JTF2 was created for counter-terrorism but we had no Special Forces so when it became necessary they were the only ones trained to do the job. Hence JTF2 involvement in Afghanistan. This of course represents an enhanced mandate for JTF2.

Personally I think that CSOR is the first Canadian Special forces since the Devils Brigade(1st Special Service Force) that has not been really ad hoc and founded upon a clear and thought out organizational ideology. CSOR is created by the best minds of the Canadian Forces. I am really impressed with the concept of CSOR it is genius and really does address discrepancies in CF operational capacity.

Just another quick comment on the Airborne, from the stories I have heard the guys were trained in counter insurgency operations and unconventional operations. Hell jumping into combat is pretty unconventional as it is. Not to mention I have heard stories about reg forces  doing training exercises against the Airborne and pretty much getting their #$% handed to them and the @#$# kicked out of them literally. This story did not come from someone from the Airborne, it came from a Reg force guy that got his @#$ kicked.

I would argue perhaps that the Airborne was more of a quick reaction Commando unit.

com·man·do    Audio Help  (kə-mān'dō)  Pronunciation Key
n.  pl. com·man·dos or com·man·does

  1.
        1. A small fighting force specially trained for making quick destructive raids against enemy-held areas.
        2. A member of such a force.
        3. An organized force of Boer troops in South Africa.
        4. A raid made by such a force.
  2.
        1. An organized force of Boer troops in South Africa.
        2. A raid made by such a force.

But still this is the closest thing to special forces since the Devils Brigade. Just to repeat myself I am not claiming that the CAR was special forces.  I would perhaps argue that the CAR was best equipped to handle Special Operations. Seriously though if you want to debate the Airborne lets start a different thread and then just PM me.

 

[George Wallace]

Hey don't shoot the messenger that is the Dictionary definition of Special Forces. Mind you I think that this definition is a little antiquated and not reflective of current realties. I mean before counter terrorism was the domain of police forces, but the new realities explain why the Army has it now and not the RCMP.

And Counter Terrorism, and Counter Intelligence, are still fairly much the domain of Police Forces (Municipal, Provincial, Federal and Military) within Canada. 

Just another quick comment on the Airborne, from the stories I have heard the guys were trained in counter insurgency operations and unconventional operations. Hell jumping into combat is pretty unconventional as it is. Not to mention I have heard stories about reg forces  doing training exercises against the Airborne and pretty much getting their #$% handed to them and the @#$# kicked out of them literally. This story did not come from someone from the Airborne, it came from a Reg force guy that got his @#$ kicked.

Depends on who you talk to.  I have worked with and talked with members of units who have done the opposite with the Airborne; KICKED THEIR ARSES.  Afterall, they were only Infantry, once they got on the ground, and sometimes not even that as they spent their time in the air.

 

[wakingheart]

And Counter Terrorism, and Counter Intelligence, are still fairly much the domain of Police Forces (Municipal, Provincial, Federal and Military) within Canada. 

JTF2 took over the mandate of SERT from the RCMP. SERT was disbanded, reportedly, due to problems the officers had resolving the necessity to kill versus their desire to protect and save lives.That was the reason for the creation of JTF2 it was not created to be a conventional special forces unit but later developed that capacity. You can almost compare the development of JTF2 to give a mouse a cookie.

Then of course he will take hostages, call Al-Jazeera demanding that the west give him a glass of milk only to be taken out on live TV by JTF2

JTF2 is simply an expanded counter-terrorism unit. CSOR from its inception is a special forces regiment this has been declared to the Canadian Public straight up. Honestly on a political level I do not feel comfortable with the expansion of JTF2 from its originally declared purpose of counter-terrorism. I am not bad mouthing any of the guys or their accomplishments but simply put it wasn't put forward in a proper manner for approval by the Canadian public like CSOR. I mean thank god we had the capacity but JTF2's has significantly deviated from its original purpose.

 

[George Wallace]

There is a heck of a lot to Counter Terrorism and Counter Intelligence, than SERT.  You do remember 17 arrests in the GTA a while back?  This was a police operation.

 

[vonGarvin]

If "Special Forces" are used to train indigenous forces in counterinsurgency, then aren't our OMLT's "special forces"?

 

[Haggis]

http://www.rcmp.ca/ert/ert_e.htm => If they were disbanded why are they here?

There is a difference between SERT and ERT.

ERTs are regional teams, stood up and mandated to assist local and federal LEA IAW thier mandates roles and tasks.  SERT, the "Special" ERT was mandated to conduct "high value missions" in the national interest, much as JTF 2 is mandated now.  Note the distinction in roles and tasks.  SERT was a national level resource (as is JTF 2).  ERTs are not.

 

[Old Sweat]

Walkingheart

Reference your comment "JTF2 is simply an expanded counter-terrorism unit. CSOR from its inception is a special forces regiment this has been declared to the Canadian Public straight up. Honestly on a political level I do not feel comfortable with the expansion of JTF2 from its originally declared purpose of counter-terrorism. I am not bad mouthing any of the guys or their accomplishments but simply put it wasn't put forward in a proper manner for approval by the Canadian public like CSOR. I mean thank god we had the capacity but JTF2's has significantly deviated from its original purpose." the original role given the unit by the Governor-in-Council was words to the effect to undertake high value missions for the Government of Canada. While the perception and the majority of the original focus was on counter-terrorism, that never was the exclusive role.

I am unable to confirm or deny any further information regarding the unit and its employment.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I am unable to confirm or deny any further information regarding the unit and its employment.

Thank goodness, otherwise we would have had to make you eat your own head!  ;D

 

[PPCLI Guy]

If "Special Forces" are used to train indigenous forces in counterinsurgency, then aren't our OMLT's "special forces"?

"Special" they already are...but in a "we get our own Olympics" kind of way  ;D

 

[NL_engineer]

"Special" they already are...but in a "we get our own Olympics" kind of way  ;D

:rofl:

Your just mean ;D

 

[Haggis]

"Special" they already are...but in a "we get our own Olympics" kind of way  ;D

I'm guessing that you don't have any desire to command the OMLT??

 

[Armymedic]

And whats all this have to do with CSOR? (other than anyone there would probably agree they need thier own olympics too... )

 

[Haggis]

And whats all this have to do with CSOR? (other than anyone there would probably agree they need thier own olympics too... )

From reply 428 onwards.... not much.