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Canadian Military Prison

Elisha said:
No i am not in the CF and Kevin I agree with you in saying that it doesnt teach disipline per say but it is a way to reconnect with it definatly! 


I had no idea that time in DB would show up in a background check!


Elisha


It all depends on the extent and position that check is made for, as outlined  by"gnPlummer421 & 3rdHerd" if you were applying for the Secret Service, I guess they could find out all the details of ones sex life. But in normal job applications your Military records are not requested. Verification of Service and type of Discharge can be verified by your Discharge Certificate.

As you progress on and through this Forum you be able to distingwish those contributers which you can take to the Bank. Es specally concerning matters of Discipline.

Again I put it to you, why the Interest in DB's and Displine ?.

Cheers.
 
FastEddy are you asking me?!  My father in law was in db way back when and now works in an industry that no doubt a background check was pulled.  I just find it very interesting that it would appear, especially when I know people that have been charged with awol and but in DB.


Just an interesting subject I guess.

Elisha
 
Elisha,
AWOL, most times is treated as a minor offence
dealt with in Summary trial and, if the fine is minimal, eg 200$ or extra duties or Confined to base the conduct sheet will be wiped clean as per regulations... so minor items won't necessarily show on background checks.
 
3rd Herd said:
Quick answer No if you are in under a CF charge however if you are in under a Criminal Code of Canada Charge and conviction then yes it is the same as being put in and released from civiy jail. Time in DB will show up though on an enhanced background check which is becoming a more common requirement in the civilian world.

You are incorrect. There now provisions for a number of military offences (Part 3 Div 6.2 of NDA) for which members can be fingerprinted and photographed under the Indentification of Criminals Act, which means your record follows you. For want of a better term your military offences are part of your "civilian" record and can be uncovered with a routine criminal records check.
 
Thanks for the correction Jumper as I said it was a quick answer and my experience with that facet was historical. My more recent practical experiences have to do with enhanced checks and the normal Criminal Record Check procedure which I have attempted to outline while staying within the public domain of information.
 
geo said:
Elisha,
AWOL, most times is treated as a minor offence
dealt with in Summary trial and, if the fine is minimal, eg 200$ or extra duties or Confined to base the conduct sheet will be wiped clean as per regulations... so minor items won't necessarily show on background checks.

I got a AWOL charge and got $500 fine, and got the choice to go to a court martial but since i knew i was guilty i took the smart way and went summary trail. I thought AWOL stayed on your record forever. How would i find out if mine gets wiped off?
 
RHFC said:
I got a AWOL charge and got $500 fine, and got the choice to go to a court martial but since i knew i was guilty i took the smart way and went summary trail. I thought AWOL stayed on your record forever. How would i find out if mine gets wiped off?
Check your conduct sheet on your pers file. Charges are not just "wiped off". You must ask for a pardon to have them expunged and I believe you have to wait 3 years (could be 5 but I'm sure it is 3) before you can apply for a pardon.
 
Geo,

I know that Awol is a minor offence but there were more than one case that I knew of that they were sent to DB for.  However, in saying that it could be that this was more than a one time occurance.  I do not know the rammifactions of the charge at all.


Elisha
 
Elisha said:
Geo,

I know that Awol is a minor offence but there were more than one case that I knew of that they were sent to DB for.  However, in saying that it could be that this was more than a one time occurance.  I do not know the rammifactions of the charge at all.


Elisha

AWOL can be a minor offence OR it could be something big it all depends on the circumstance
 
RHFC said:
I got a AWOL charge and got $500 fine, and got the choice to go to a court martial but since i knew i was guilty i took the smart way and went summary trail. I thought AWOL stayed on your record forever. How would i find out if mine gets wiped off?
Minor charges, fines up to 200$ are dealt with under DOAD 7006-1

Major charges requiring a pardon are dealt with under DOAD 7016-1
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/intro_e.asp#7000

With respect to what your conduct sheet looks like right now - ask your OR to see yours
 
FastEddy said:

Acorn, I think anyone who might have read any of my treads have establish that any factual reference to the Military was based on a Pre 1968 period. Even all your 25 years of experience only takes you back to 81, agreed a lot has transpirered since then and a lot before then. Your present claim seems perfectly acceptable as you would not have made it as any current day members could easily debunk it.

Sorry Eddy, I'm not a Fan Club member, so I can't say I read enough of your posts to know that your knowledge is strictly pre-'68. I should have checked your profile. Thanks, though, for acknowledging that I may well be correct within my own span of knowledge (sorry, should be 25+ years, not quite 26 yet).

However I would suggest that you might hesitate in commenting or disputing on subjects which may have differred during a certain time span.

If it were clear that you were only commenting on an antediluvian time period I would not have made a comment. I did, however, think that the clarification should be made, as we wouldn't want today's young soldiers to think some crotchety young WO like myself could actually preside over a summary trial.

Acorn
 
Acorn said:
Sorry Eddy, I'm not a Fan Club member, so I can't say I read enough of your posts to know that your knowledge is strictly pre-'68. I should have checked your profile. Thanks, though, for acknowledging that I may well be correct within my own span of knowledge (sorry, should be 25+ years, not quite 26 yet).

If it were clear that you were only commenting on an antediluvian time period I would not have made a comment. I did, however, think that the clarification should be made, as we wouldn't want today's young soldiers to think some crotchety young WO like myself could actually preside over a summary trial.

Acorn


Right no harm done.

Question, in todays Command structure, WO's cannot be designated  Officer i/c let alone conduct Summary Trials ?. Would you know how or why that came about ?.

Cheers.
 
WOs don't have a commission and don't have delegated authority from the CO.

Also - nowadays, not every officer can be a delegated officer. It is mandatory for all COs and the officers he's delegated punishment authority (+RSM) to take a "presiding officer" course - given by the Area JAG office.

If the CO does not have the qualification - he can't even delegate to one of his officers.

Qualification must be validated on a periodic basis and if you let it lapse, you're back to square 1 & have to take the course all over again.
 
There was – back in the ‘50s and ‘60s, I think, a category called, in QR(Army), detachment commander who could be a WO1 and who could have both powers of punishment and the same financial authority of a CO with the rank of captain.

I seem to recall actually meeting one: a Signals or Engineer WO1, if memory serves.

Can any other old timers help?  Is my memory still working properly?

 
Ed,
What you're talking about does ring a bell....
but with the update to the National Defence Act and the tightening up of regulations with respect to the application of the Code of Service discipline, that sort of thing has gone away .... as you said - round about Forces Unification time.
 
There were some specialized, and important WO1s way back when – not that the current crop are anything but special and important I hasten to add.  They had titles like artificer, conductor and foreman.

I recall, while being trained as a junior LO in a brigade HQ, meeting the Foreman of Signals, a WO1 who was introduced as the technical officer of the brigade Sigs Sqn.  “Aren’t most of the signals officers engineers?” I asked, “How-come you’re the technical officer?”

“They are indeed engineers, sir,” he replied, “but that doesn’t mean they know the first thing about the technical aspects of signalling.  I, on the other, hand, know all this stuff,“ he swept his hands out to indicate the array of command and signals wagons, “damn near as well as I know my wife, and I understand it a lot better”

As an aside, and back on topic and to support KevinB’s earlier comment: we were taught, way, way back when the earth was still cooling, that when a soldier broke the rules and headed off to the DB it was to correct a training error which ‘we’ (the big WE, meaning the entire army ‘system’) had made when, quite clearly, we let him our of recruit training too early.  Soldiers, we were told, were no bad, just inadequately trained – if they broke the rules then the training might need to be repeated.

Edit: to correct send paragraph
 
100% in agreement with you

as things stand, it's amaazing that the CO & his delegated officers still "practice law" - there are many who would have the authority transfered to courts & judges.... but that would strip away the ability of the CO to take care of business in a most expeditious way.
 
geo said:
100% in agreement with you

as things stand, it's amaazing that the CO & his delegated officers still "practice law" - there are many who would have the authority transfered to courts & judges.... but that would strip away the ability of the CO to take care of business in a most expeditious way.
Unfortunately none of this would be an issue if Snr NCOs and MCpls did their jobs in the first place. IMO the majority of soldiers who end up at the DB end up there because most (not all) Sgts do not take their jobs seriously enough. To many new recruits the army is another nine to five job, there is an obvious disconnect in basic somewhere.
 
Jumper..
agree with you but it often becomes an issue of the Officers who don't back their NCOs
get your Troop Commander to reverse disciplinary decisions one time too often and you get what you're talking about.
 
I’m not sure exactly when we made the transition to what I would call an occupational model of serviceI guess it started in the mid ‘60s – maybe that’s when I first noticed.

By the mid/late ‘60s we had teams of officers from Ottawa traveling the world, telling us (all ranks) that we had to think about ourselves and the army somewhat differently.  The new model army, we were told, would consist of married home owners, tradesmen and professionals.  By the ‘70s we had – I’m not allowed to make this up, as the Liberals might say – a recruiting poster which showed a young, green uniformed (we all had green uniforms) officer stepping off an executive jet, briefcase in hand – eyes fixed firmly on his future.  We responded, as I recall, with a new army song: the Ballad of the Green Briefcase.  We created a new cartoon character – Captain Canada – who pulled magic solutions out of green briefcase to solve perplexing problems like how to get people posted out of HQ.

It was no surprise when I went back to regimental duty and found that the occupational model was well entrenched, even in the Sergeants’ Mess.  We became an army of married homeowners with all that implies.  To offer just one example: I recall talking to a ‘military housing study’ (led by MGen Frank Norman, a good officer and a very decent fellow, smart, too).  I suggested that there ought to be a bonus offered to soldiers to live in barracks and married quarters because we might have an operational requirement to have some percentage of our soldiers within easy reach.  General Norman agreed that there probably was such a military operational requirement but assured us that it was not anywhere near, much less in his study mandate – which was to ensure that the military did not subsidize housing, thus creating a disadvantage for local landlords and builders and depriving the government of its due.

There was a steady, simmering (now and again boiling) anger between units and service schools and the service schools and the recruit school and the recruit school and the recruiting staff re the barely acceptable standard of junior soldiers and officers – much angst, little action.  LGen JJ Paradis, a wise old hand, counseled commanders, commanding officers and principle staff officers re: letting this blame game get out of hand.  We, the army in the field, were, he instructed, to become a huge retraining facility.  He and his personnel staff would try to get units on a two year schedule which would allow most units to stretch the traditional individual => team => sub-unit => unit training cycle to accommodate a much, much longer (nearly a year long) individual + team training period which, it was hoped, would be sufficient to rectify the problem.  It was a step in the right direction.

We were not the only army with problems.  Our good friends and neighbours to the South were, if anything, worse off in the ‘60s, ‘70s and ‘80s, I think.  Only the Brits – who had a priceless low level leadership development 'facility' in Northern Ireland - seemed to have their priorities straight.

I think – I hope – things are turning around, fairly swiftly and fairly smoothly, too.  I do not advocate a return to the good old days – they weren’t that good.  I do hope that we will recover a model of service which puts service and pride and respect right up there with good salaries, good training, good living conditions and good retirement (and transition) benefits as incentives to come in and stay in.

 
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