Canada's tanks

[FJAG]

Just a quick follow up to that @TangoTwoBravo.

I presume that the interior of the turret as between the A4M and the A4 are the same. Is that correct?

Roughly how many days conversion training does it take to convert a trained A4 crew to be an effective A6M crew?

 

[IKnowNothing]

Canada has its mixed fleet of Leopard 2s due to the successful if complicated program to acquire them during the war in Afghanistan. As the dust settled we had three variants of the same tank. I would rather have a squadron of Leopard 2A6Ms and two squadrons of Leopard 2A4Ms and Leopard 2A4s than three squadrons of Leopard 2A4s.

I don't want to go too deeply, but all three variants have a 120mm gun. The A6M has the longer 55 calibre barrel and some differences in FCS, but the other Leopards have the same 44 calibre 120mm as the M1 family. They are certainly "gun tanks." Protection is higher on the A6M and A4M, especially against the threats experienced in Kandahar.

I won't get into tank disposition here, but Sqns have the tanks they have and train with those tanks.

If there is an operation then the most suitable tanks will be identified and shipped. We have a managed readiness program for the squadrons. A crew could train on a given tank in Canada and deploy on a different one in theatre. Which is how Kandahar went, with the extra hurdle of Leopard 1 training in Canada, Leopard 2 training in Germany and then deploy onto the Leopard 2s in theatre. This is true of most other major combat systems. I was in a Recce Sqn that deployed to Afghanistan. Those were not our Coyotes and Bisons from Petawawa that we fell onto in theatre. Our personal weapons and CP "battle boxes" went with us, but the vehicles were sourced and delivered by others to theatre. There are folks that look after this for a living.

I recall when KFOR took form my tank troop in Petawawa had a panzer (my own) selected to go to Montreal for the operation that soldiers from another regiment would use (and then Dragoons). It went to Montreal for final checks by 202 Workshop and then shipping by the Depot there. I am not sure if that tank actually went past Montreal - I was posted ERE as this all went down and then the fleets had changed to Leopard C2s by the time I was back at the Regiment. But anyhoo.

Thankyou for that. Gun tank is a personal colloquialism for deployable/intended for operational use, sorry for the confusion. It was my understanding that the mixed fleet existed in two pools, the A4Ms and A6Ms with upgraded electronics and protection assigned to the sabre squadrons and the A4's assigned ??? For training outside of the squadrons.

Basically I'm trying to understand the tank to squadron ratio, whether it's #T= 40x or #T= 40+20x, somewhere in between. Completely understood if that cant be discussed

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Thankyou for that. Gun tank is a personal colloquialism for deployable/intended for operational use, sorry for the confusion. It was my understanding that the mixed fleet existed in two pools, the A4Ms and A6Ms with upgraded electronics and protection assigned to the sabre squadrons and the A4's assigned ??? For training outside of the squadrons.

Basically I'm trying to understand the tank to squadron ratio, whether it's #T= 40x or #T= 40+20x, somewhere in between. Completely understood if that cant be discussed

There are three operational tank squadrons: two out west and one in Gagetown. By operational I mean they have crews, command and control and combat service support and are in a Regiment within a CMBG. They go through the managed readiness program to be able to deploy. There is a tank squadron in each of the three phases of the MRP. There are Leo2A4s in operational tank squadrons. There are also tanks at Schools and Montreal.

A tank squadron might deploy and fall onto different tanks than it had for training in Canada. Another squadron might send its tanks to theatre. Tanks also move around for refit and overhaul etc.

Why are you trying to figure this out?

 

[McG]

I presume that the interior of the turret as between the A4M and the A4 are the same. Is that correct?

The A4M received FCS upgrades that made the turret different from other A4 but did not make it the same as the A6.

 

[IKnowNothing]

There are three operational tank squadrons: two out west and one in Gagetown. By operational I mean they have crews, command and control and combat service support and are in a Regiment within a CMBG. They go through the managed readiness program to be able to deploy. There is a tank squadron in each of the three phases of the MRP. There are Leo2A4s in operational tank squadrons. There are also tanks at Schools and Montreal.

A tank squadron might deploy and fall onto different tanks than it had for training in Canada. Another squadron might send its tanks to theatre. Tanks also move around for refit and overhaul etc.

Why are you trying to figure this out?

Thank-you again.

Call it mental stimulation. Chronic need to for planning and ideation (wife hates it- to many "what about" discussions). Want to leave work at work + household planning and budgeting in a holding pattern with no major changes or projects on the horizon= mental bandwidth needing something to bounce around without responsibility. Was always interested in the army but pretty much shelved it for a decade after deciding against RMC. No offense meant, sorry if any given.

 

[FJAG]

The A4M received FCS upgrades that made the turret different from other A4 but did not make it the same as the A6.

Thanks for that. Is cross training a significant or a minor issue?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Thank-you again.

Call it mental stimulation. Chronic need to for planning and ideation (wife hates it- to many "what about" discussions). Want to leave work at work + household planning and budgeting in a holding pattern with no major changes or projects on the horizon= mental bandwidth needing something to bounce around without responsibility. Was always interested in the army but pretty much shelved it after deciding against RMC. No offense meant, sorry if any given.

All good! Just trying to understand the question.

 

[suffolkowner]

Canadian military will get new tanks to replace Leopards going to Ukraine: minister - National | Globalnews.ca

Anita Anand says the Canadian Forces will be receiving new tanks to replace the eight fighting machines sent to Ukraine, and they won't necessarily be Leopard 2 battle tanks.

globalnews.ca

We will get replacement tanks but they might not be Leo2A4's. Good thing I guess

 

[Halifax Tar]

Canadian military will get new tanks to replace Leopards going to Ukraine: minister - National | Globalnews.ca

Anita Anand says the Canadian Forces will be receiving new tanks to replace the eight fighting machines sent to Ukraine, and they won't necessarily be Leopard 2 battle tanks.

globalnews.ca

We will get replacement tanks but they might not be Leo2A4's. Good thing I guess

I'm betting on Abrams.

 

[suffolkowner]

I'm betting on Abrams.

or we will get 8 Leo2A7's jk

I hope that is the plan to replace the fleet with Abrams or all Leo2A7's as we divest to Ukraine

 

[Good2Golf]

SEPv4 would be nice.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Abrams just makes sense from where I sit. Why not leverage that massive US Log train and manufacturing capability AMAP ?

 

[suffolkowner]

It should be a win/win upgrade tanks, support Ukraine and everyone looks good

 

[dapaterson]

Further micro fleets would create additional infra, spares and tooling cost pressures. If the replacement is to be Abrams, then hopefully the CAF will fully transfer its Leos to UKR and fully replace them, to simplify long term training and support.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Further micro fleets would create additional infra, spares and tooling cost pressures. If the replacement is to be Abrams, then hopefully the CAF will fully transfer its Leos to UKR and fully replace them, to simplify long term training and support.

I should have been clearer, thats what I would want too. Not a mish mash off different logistic lanes.

 

[GR66]

100% agree with a uniform replacement fleet and definitely strongly lean towards US kit due to the logistics benefits. I'm maybe not in as much of a rush to decide on a particular vehicle yet though. I'm interested to see how the Leopards and Abrams perform in Ukraine vs ATGMs and other anti-armour threats. Maybe the Abrams X (lighter, smaller crew, diesel hybrid-electric motor, APS) will be the way to go?

 

[KevinB]

SEPv4 would be nice.

Yes, but I’d suggest that SepV3 would be better if they had the DU Armor and acquired from direct US stocks.

 

[Good2Golf]

Faster, then do the Gen-3 EOIR upgrade after ?

 

[MJP]

Further micro fleets would create additional infra, spares and tooling cost pressures. If the replacement is to be Abrams, then hopefully the CAF will fully transfer its Leos to UKR and fully replace them, to simplify long term training and support.

Indeed. I second that thought as we have seen that modern tanks require much more maint (especially PM) than older models. Trying to run 2 modern fleets might just kill us. The other hope is we do it right and parcel out the intensive aspects of the inspection plan to industry and include an R&O plan.

 

[brihard]

Further micro fleets would create additional infra, spares and tooling cost pressures. If the replacement is to be Abrams, then hopefully the CAF will fully transfer its Leos to UKR and fully replace them, to simplify long term training and support.

Agreed. Whether Abrams or new Leos, let's get to one common fleet, and send all of our stuff - which is late lifecycle anyway - to a country that can use them for what they were meant for.

If we get on to the Leo 2 production line, we may be waiting a while. A quicker bet would hopefully be to transition to Abrams, and yeah, get all of our Leos over to Ukraine either to be used or cannibalized.