Canada's New, Liberal, Defence Policy

[Humphrey Bogart]

I am quite sure, having worked on the floor at FMF, that the majority of the workers voted Liberal.
Yes, yes they have.

Yes they most certainly did but I'm sure they also forgot about the transformation report or never knew it existed in the first place.

 

[Occam]

This is all in response to the comments of an "expert" (quotes intentional) who is sought out far too often for this particular newspaper's own good. 

If you look at Leslie's Transformation Report, you'll find that Hansen is making a bunch of extrapolations based on a very small part of the report. 

The FMFs aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  One need only look at the KINGSTON class model of in-service support to know that the skills and resources offered by the FMFs are unlikely to be replaced.  I say that with full knowledge of all the quirks of doing business with the FMFs.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I don't think you should rely on "what makes sense" as method of interpreting what is about to happen to DND and the CF over the next few years.

Some of what is about to occur will be good for us; some of it- not so much.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yes, I believe the new minister will be feeding us a carrot in one hand and feeding us belt fed kok with the other hand.  As to what we'll be full of first, carrot or kok will be a matter of interest to many here no doubt, including myself.

 

[Furniture]

As a person partially on the outside of the whole RCN thing, I have to wonder how much real serviceability will be lost by making the fleet maintenance responsibility a job done by shipyard employees rather than public servants?

My understanding is it's not as if they would need to tender a contract for each individual job, it's just that the FMF role would be tendered out to shipyards who would have to compete to get the contract every so many years. We already send the ships away to the shipyards for refit as it is, would it matter that VSL guys are also working on the boat on the dockyard side too? Then the government isn't on the hook for hundreds of extra public service pensions and health plans yet the work still gets done.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

In other words, SKT, and to quote Dickens:

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only."

From "A Tale of Two Cities" (Halifax and Ottawa?)

 

[SeaKingTacco]

OGBD- well done, sir!

;D

 

[jollyjacktar]

As a person partially on the outside of the whole RCN thing, I have to wonder how much real serviceability will be lost by making the fleet maintenance responsibility a job done by shipyard employees rather than public servants?

My understanding is it's not as if they would need to tender a contract for each individual job, it's just that the FMF role would be tendered out to shipyards who would have to compete to get the contract every so many years. We already send the ships away to the shipyards for refit as it is, would it matter that VSL guys are also working on the boat on the dockyard side too? Then the government isn't on the hook for hundreds of extra public service pensions and health plans yet the work still gets done.

The problem can lay in that the major shipyards "will/should be" already very busy beavers fabricating the next generations of ships for the GoC.  It's not Speedy Muffler or Mr. Lube where you can just show up on short or no notice and get in and out in lickety split.  The shipyards have limited berthing space for one thing and finite resources in personnel and equipment for another.  Not such an easy proposition to take care of the grey beasts as it may be for a ground vehicle.  Quick turn around capability may very be lost and that could indeed have an adverse effect on operational capabilities.  It's a double edged sword, cutting back on one thing while desiring to retain another.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Concur with Jollyjacktar here.

And here is a supplementary point: Right now, the Admiral (on either coast) can pick up the phone and tell FMF: "Hey! Get WINNIPEG to sea tomorrow morning NLT 10:00. Got It?" I don't think that would be possible with Shipyard, no matter how we word the contract.

 

[Furniture]

Ah.. My understanding of how it would be done is that FMF would be staffed by contractors rather than public servants. The dockyard facilities would remain in use, just a different boss paying the bills (with DND money).

 

[Edward Campbell]

This battle, over who control third and fourth line, was fought and won by the Navy in the 1960s, again, to my 100% certain knowledge, in the 1980s and, I think, again, in the early 2000s. In each case it was abundantly clear ~ even to some really expert and really well "plugged in" centralizing empire builders in Ottawa ~ that navies, including our navy, are different from armies and air forces and they do not mix well into a centrally managed sphere, not even one as well managed as the old Air Materiel Command (until 1966) and after 1966 and until the 1980s, the CF Material Command.

 

[FSTO]

This battle, over who control third and fourth line, was fought and won by the Navy in the 1960s, again, to my 100% certain knowledge, in the 1980s and, I think, again, in the early 2000s. In each case it was abundantly clear ~ even to some really expert and really well "plugged in" centralizing empire builders in Ottawa ~ that navies, including our navy, are different from armies and air forces and they do not mix well into a centrally managed sphere, not even one as well managed as the old Air Materiel Command (until 1966) and after 1966 and until the 1980s, the CF Material Command.

Cannot these people just leave well enough alone?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Ah.. My understanding of how it would be done is that FMF would be staffed by contractors rather than public servants. The dockyard facilities would remain in use, just a different boss paying the bills (with DND money).

That is my understanding, too. I am just enjoying the dawning realization at UNDE that maybe Harper wasn't so bad....

 

[Occam]

Ah.. My understanding of how it would be done is that FMF would be staffed by contractors rather than public servants. The dockyard facilities would remain in use, just a different boss paying the bills (with DND money).

That's essentially how it works for the KINGSTON class.  SNC-Lavalin is the In-Service Support Contractor for the class.  Ask anyone in a navy blue uniform how that works out.  The FMFs still get a lot of business from the class, despite the fact that the ISSC is supposed to be handling it all.  Why?  Because the FMFs already have the experience and knowledge to do the work now in a lot of cases, as opposed to having to ramp up an outside org to learn how to do it.

 

[Lumber]

Yes, I believe the new minister will be feeding us a carrot in one hand and feeding us belt fed kok with the other hand.  As to what we'll be full of first, carrot or kok will be a matter of interest to many here no doubt, including myself.

Is there some Milnet guideline that says you can use "innappropriate" language as long as it is spelt differently? Censoreship is bullshit, just spell it out! We all know what you meant.

And here is a supplementary point: Right now, the Admiral (on either coast) can pick up the phone and tell FMF: "Hey! Get WINNIPEG to sea tomorrow morning NLT 10:00. Got It?" I don't think that would be possible with Shipyard, no matter how we word the contract.

Twice I've been on ship (and on watch...) when we lost Port MLO conducting Main Prop trials and had to limp back to harbour on the Stbd shaft. FMF was waiting for us as soon as we came alongside, got us back out to sea as fast as possible (roughly 36-48 hrs both times).

I've met some extremely lazy FMF workers, and had to deal with some of the most rediculous safety regulations when dealing with FMF, but for the most part, I've been very impressed with the speed and dedication with which they do their work (most of them).

Now, if you can maintain that capability, and just swap them out with private contractors, then I'm all for it. But if we have to schedule time over at a third party facility IOT get repairs like the ones I mentioned above, then you can kiss our Operational resiliency good-bye.

 

[jollyjacktar]

If people are so hot and horny to replace the civilian workers at FMF with another workforce that is able to turn to when ordered, then it is time to reactivate the Fleet Maintenance Group that was stood down in the 90's.  Sailors are salary and FMG, when operational, was highly effective and would kick the ass of any outside contractor you care to mention.  As I understand, it was in many respects more effective than FMF and this played a major role in it's eventual demise.

 

[Jed]

If people are so hot and horny to replace the civilian workers at FMF with another workforce that is able to turn to when ordered, then it is time to reactivate the Fleet Maintenance Group that was stood down in the 90's.  Sailors are salary and FMG, when operational, was highly effective and would kick the ass of any outside contractor you care to mention.  As I understand, it was in many respects more effective than FMF and this played a major role in it's eventual demise.

Funny how that is. When we have our quality troops / sailors working in one cohesive force under the arguably best leadership, can be effective and efficient. Everybody speaking the same working language and obeying the same rules with no middle management interference (ala union bosses or contractor oversite) muddying the waters.

Too bad it is so darn expensive. I guess quality costs more.

 

[jollyjacktar]

If I have the right end of the stick with regard to FMG, it was compeditive with FMF if not cheaper/faster/smarter (sort of like Steve Austin...) and would regularly take work from FMF.  The Unions didn't like being muscled out by untermench such as hairybags and a subsequently something had to give.  This was, however, before my time with the navy and what I've posted above is what I am told happened by those I know who were happily posted to FMG back in the day. 

The quality and speed of delivery of FMG was of the highest quality and for the sailors an excellent place to polish skills they then took back with them to sea, to the great benefit of their respective ships.  It would be a daunting task to raise this Phoenix from the ashes once more as a great deal of the knowledge base that was there has retired since then.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Is there some Milnet guideline that says you can use "innapropriate" language as long as it is spelt differently? Censoreship is bullshit, just spell it out! We all know what you meant.

If you read the Guidelines, no there isn't. If you don't like 'inappropriate' language, you can set the filter in your profile settings.

---Staff---

 

[Kirkhill]

Cannot these people just leave well enough alone?

Note the timeline FSTO.  Every 20 years ..... or every generation.

Nobody reads history and every generation invents sex.

Samuel Pepys's problems were no different than Jason Kenney's or the new guy's.