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SeaKingTacco said:Fine. Stipulated.
Corporate welfare is still wrong.
Fully agree. It's what gave us gull-winged cars in New Brunswick, greenhouses in Newfoundland...
SeaKingTacco said:Fine. Stipulated.
Corporate welfare is still wrong.
dapaterson said:Fully agree. It's what gave us gull-winged cars in New Brunswick, greenhouses in Newfoundland...
E.R. Campbell said:There is an opportunity, given Russia's renewed attention to the Arctic, for Prime Minister designate Trudeau to reorient Canada's foreign and defence policies in directions that may please more Canadians than did Prime Minister Harper's:
First: get out of thew Middle East ~ completely out;
Second: stay engaged in Eastern Europe with a mix of naval, land and air elements;
Third: focus more and more attention on the North ~
a. Commit to defined (larger) number of AOPS and to accelerating the construction of the CCGS John G Diefenbaker;
b. Increase the number, duration, frequency, intensity and, especially, visibility of Army exercises in the North;
c. Keep the promise to cancel the F-35 but commit to buying aircraft (fighter/interceptors and long range patrol) that will do better at maintaining sovereignty over the Arctic; and
d. Commit to an integrated space, air, terrestrial and underwater sensor/warning/communications system to give Canada near real time coverage of all the territory and contiguous waters (and maritime approaches) we claim as our own and the airspace over both.
daftandbarmy said:And, of course: http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/should-the-federal-government-bail-out-bombardier/
SeaKingTacco said:The simple answer is that you cannot carry torpedos externally on anything other than a helicopter and expect them to actually work when you need them in an environment like Canada's.
They actually do need to be protected in a heated bomb bay. That rules out most aircraft, right there.
I also doubt the Q400 has the speed or fuel reserves to make it out 1500nm from shore and actually be able to hang around long enough to do anything useful.
None of this is to say that we have to do MPA work with something like the P3. It is just that the alternative solution is not obvious to me.
Eye In The Sky said:Like the army had to deal with the LSVW...the RCAF might have to deal with a 'less than optimal' solution, that benefits things like industry better than military requirements...if I had to take either of those, I'd drop the sono's, MAD and kill stores and make it 'the next generation Challenger'/CP-140A...
But I'd rather have the non-LSVW platform. I just don't think we will get it.
Danish air force planning Challenger 604 mid-life upgrade
20 APRIL, 2015 BY: BETH STEVENSON LONDON
The Royal Danish Air Force is preparing to embark on a mid-life upgrade of its Bombardier Challenger 604 maritime patrol aircraft, which is expected to be implemented by 2018.
The four-strong fleet of Danish 604s will receive a series of modifications including a new downlink and a multirole radar capable of carrying out surface surveillance, weather monitoring and oil slick detection, as well as a new cockpit to the Challenger 605 standard.
A new aircraft is not on the cards due to the requirement for a new fighter to replace Denmark’s Lockheed Martin F-16s, which is currently the procurement funding priority.
Final discussions are under way to decide on financing and how the upgrade will manifest. Denmark has sought information from Bombardier, but it is not clear if the airframer would be expected to lead the upgrade programme.
The Danish 604s currently boast satellite communications, radios, the Telephonics OceanEye APS-143 maritime surveillance radar, an automatic identification system and a FLIR Systems Star Safire electro-optical/infrared sensor.
The OceanEye was expected to be able to monitor oil slicks but was unable to do so, so the air force procured one side-looking aperture radar for this role.
“We have found ourselves in a situation in which we didn’t have the radar we needed,” Maj Jacob Bos, airstaff from Defense Command Denmark, told the SMi ISR conference in London. “The surveillance radar isn’t reliable enough, nor is the FLIR, and our consoles don’t support flexibility, so we are looking at this mid-life upgrade for the Challenger.”
Of the four 604s in the air force’s inventory, three are currently utilised in the MPA role and one in a VIP and transport configuration, according to Flightglobal’s Ascend Fleets database.
Sentinel R1
The aircraft, Sentinel R1, is a modified version of the Global Express, which is an executive business jet manufactured by Bombardier.
5 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron
RAF Waddington
Role
The Sentinel R1 is the RAF’s only long-range wide area battlefield surveillance asset, providing critical intelligence and target tracking information to British and Coalition forces.
Specifications
Engines: 2 BMW/Rolls Royce 710 engines
Thrust: 14,750lbs each
Max speed: 530kts
Length: 30.30m
Max altitude: 40,000ft
Span: 28.49m
Aircrew: 5
Aircrew: 2 RAF Pilots. 1 RAF Mission Commander. 2 Image Analysts (either RAF or Army Intelligence Corps).
Using the aircraft’s powerful radar the mission crew can identify and track numerous targets over great distances, passing the information in near real time to friendly forces. The mission crew is backed up by a team of intelligence specialists who conduct in-depth forensic analysis of data collected by the aircraft, generating intelligence products that are passed to commanders and decision makers enabling them to plan future operations. The on-board Intelligence Analysts are a mix of RAF and British Army Intelligence Corps SNCOs. The GS provide a longer term analytical capability to answer more in-depth questions and Requests for Information (RFIs). The GS are staffed by Intelligence Analysts from the Intelligence Corps and RAF, and supported by R Signals and REME technicians, both at RAF Waddington and the deployed operating base.
The Sentinel R1, which entered service in December 2008, is the most advanced long-range, airborne-surveillance system of its kind in the world.
The aircraft has been deployed operationally in Afghanistan since 2009 and provided vital intelligence during NATO operations in Libya in 2011, and French operations in Mali, in 2013.
Sentinel System
After the 1990 Gulf War, it was identified by the allies that Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance had played a key role in the success of this operation. In particular, the use of Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI) had proved invaluable in the tracking and prosecution of enemy ground forces. This galvanised the UK to acquire its own capability and in 1993 the requirement was endorsed by the MOD.
The solution chosen by the MOD was the Airborne STand-Off Radar (ASTOR) to be known as the Sentinel system. The Sentinel system consists of Air, Land and Support segments. The Air segment consists of 5 converted Bombardier Global Express aircraft, named the Sentinel R1, fitted with a Dual Mode Radar (DMR). This radar is similar to the U2 ASARS radar, and collects SAR imagery and GMTI data. The Land segment consists of 2 transportable Operational Level Ground Stations (OLGS) and 6 mobile Tactical Ground Stations (TGS). These ground stations (GS) are connected to the aircraft via data links and provide Near Real Time (NRT) intelligence to commanders and their staffs at multiple levels of command.
Sentinel was originally intended for conventional war-fighting operations, to track armoured formations and conduct strategic reconnaissance tasks. However, the capability has been shown to be flexible and has been adapted for use in a number of different roles by 5 (Army Cooperation) Sqn.
The patient is going to bleed out between when they are found and when they are rescued.Chris Pook said:On that score
Suppose the Government told the RCAF to take yet another look at the FWSAR project and suggested this:
Separate the SEARCH function from the RESCUE function.
Look for a SEARCH capable aircraft that would ADD to the capabilities of the CP-140 fleet - taking some of the patrol duties off them and increasing the number of aircraft updating the Common Intelligence Picture. The remaining CP-140 hours could be focused on either ASW work, Anti-Vlad work or Anti-ISIL work. (No bombs need be dropped).
Meanwhile, the RESCUE function could be handled by adding a flight of Hercs and another 6 pack of Cormorants, Chinooks or Cyclones.
Maaaaaybeeeee?
Additional Canadianization could be achieved through more MDA satellites and Canadian Space Agency. That would leave room for some American MALE UAVs.
And punt the F35 decision until after the next election.
Chris Pook said:On that score
Suppose the Government told the RCAF to take yet another look at the FWSAR project and suggested this:
Separate the SEARCH function from the RESCUE function.
Look for a SEARCH capable aircraft that would ADD to the capabilities of the CP-140 fleet - taking some of the patrol duties off them and increasing the number of aircraft updating the Common Intelligence Picture. The remaining CP-140 hours could be focused on either ASW work, Anti-Vlad work or Anti-ISIL work. (No bombs need be dropped).
Meanwhile, the RESCUE function could be handled by adding a flight of Hercs and another 6 pack of Cormorants, Chinooks or Cyclones.
Maaaaaybeeeee?
Additional Canadianization could be achieved through more MDA satellites and Canadian Space Agency. That would leave room for some American MALE UAVs.
And punt the F35 decision until after the next election.
Eye In The Sky said:I think pollution monitoring is a task for another department. That's me. I like the Sentinel but it's a one-trick pony; if we are talking about a MMA/LRPA I think it, like the Aurora, needs to be able to perform multiple tasks. We just don't have the $$ for 1-tricks (IMO).
I'll leave the thoughts on SAR assets to those who are in that business. LRPAs are SAR back-up now when required/directed, but it isn't our bread and butter.
The concern I have over purchasing strictly 'search' airframes is that they can do only that; search. You want to be able to localize, track and...if required, prosecute a contact. Before it slips away and you lose it.
GR66 said:I think it makes sense for the aircraft to have at least some ability to respond. Underwing torpedoes may not perform very well and a jet might not be great for low-level work, but at least the Global Express has torpedoes, can carry Harpoon, has MAD, sonobouys and can drop SAR pods, all with pretty good speed and patrol endurance. It certainly is not as good as good as an Aurora on a one to one basis, but IF you could get themcheap enoughthey could make a real difference to a key defense tasking.
Eye In The Sky said:I think pollution monitoring is a task for another department. That's me. I like the Sentinel but it's a one-trick pony; if we are talking about a MMA/LRPA I think it, like the Aurora, needs to be able to perform multiple tasks. We just don't have the $$ for 1-tricks (IMO).
I'll leave the thoughts on SAR assets to those who are in that business. LRPAs are SAR back-up now when required/directed, but it isn't our bread and butter.
The concern I have over purchasing strictly 'search' airframes is that they can do only that; search. You want to be able to localize, track and...if required, prosecute a contact. Before it slips away and you lose it.
PuckChaser said:Isn't the point of FWSAR to get an A/C out to locations a larger distance away, and once located, start the rescue? If you have 2 A/C, now you're having to wait on station to put the SAR Techs on the ground while the other A/C transits.
Mr.Radwanski speaks to something I have been wondering. Is the government in Ottawa floundering with the boss too soon out of town?
Baden Guy said:Mr.Radwanski speaks to something I have been wondering. Is the government in Ottawa floundering with the boss too soon out of town?